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The Next Generation of Sims-Which will take off?


jonas_wikander

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Howdy Folks!

 

(first post here)

 

Recently it's been becoming more and more clear that the days of FSX reigning supreme are drawing to a close- we've got new 64 bit sims from no less than 3(!) developers in their infancy, and many exciting new addons on the horizon. However, the arrival of new software does beg the question- which one will become the new standard for simming?

 

We've had a stable platform in the form of FSX for over a decade now, which has allowed developers to hit a stationary target of sorts with regards to compatibility. This is likely to change, especially since having 3 available sims is likely to lead to some sort of divergent evolution-former FSX developers will have to choose which FSX-based sim (P3D or FSW) to support as they become increasingly different and lose cross-compatibility.

 

This is not an ideal situation- who wants to have all the good aircraft/scenery spread out across 3 platforms? Investing in one sim is expensive enough, and this sort of fragmentation can't be appetizing to developers as it splits up the former captive FSX customers up into separate, smaller camps, none of whom are likely to provide a large enough market to justify large & complex projects like we've seen from PMDG and the like in the past.

 

I thought it might be fun to have a good look at each of the three new 64-bit platforms, and to try and figure out which one would be most wise to invest in (with regards to potential addon development/time of use before obsolescence).

 

 

Flight Sim World:

 

Dovetail reinvigorated the FSX market with FSX:SE, and it seems that they hope to repeat this success on a larger scale with Flight Sim World. It's a consumer entertainment product (unlike P3D) and as such is likely to be rather inexpensive compared to anything Lockheed-Martin is likely to release. The software seems to run well enough, and because it's derived from FSX it's likely that potential developers wouldn't have too much trouble once Dovetail releases an SDK.

 

However...

 

Dovetail has in the past proven rather resistant to 3rd-party developers & publishers-their Train Sim forum actually removes any posts that refer to any 3rd party developers. Additionally, they've made it clear that they wish to use the Steam Store platform as the sole distribution method for FSW addons, essentially cutting freeware developers out of the equation as well as alienating payware developers ( I've recently read a post from PMDG stating that they declined to use the Steam store distribution model and as such the status of potential PMDG products for FSW is essentially in limbo).

 

This behavior seriously calls into question whether or not Dovetail will even make development tools available to anyone who a) wants to develop freeware or b) does not want the Steam Store to be the exclusive retailer of their products. This leaves Dovetail's commitment to the FS community in question and IMO will relegate FSW to niche product status if Dovetail is unwilling to drop their plans for Steam exclusivity- I'll admit to being wary of investing in any time or money in FSW for this reason.

 

Prepar3d V4 (& beyond)

 

Another FSX based sim, this time from Lockheed Martin. Originally released in 2011, P3D has been in continuous development since then, with the recently released 64-bit V4 receiving praise for ridding itself of 32-bit limitations (no more OOM) as well as introducing new dynamic precipitation and increased performance (again due to the switch to 64-bit). From a development standpoint, P3D is ideal- Lockheed Martin is extremely supportive of 3rd-party developers, and is continually updating their SDKs. Additionally, P3D shares a certain degree of backwards compatibility with legacy FSX addons (although V4 requires 100% FSX native models/programming to run-no more FSX portovers from FS2004).

 

P3D's largest issue lies within its EULA: Prepar3D is not licensed as a personal entertainment product, with Lockheed Martin making it quite clear that the product is intended for educational or training purposes only. While I'm sure that many simmers are willing to take the legal risk and use P3D regardless, the fact remains that developers cannot get behind P3D as the *sole* platform for their products (most addons are made available for FSX AND P3D) without indirectly encouraging violation of the license agreement (something that would doubtlessly result in the removal of development rights for the companies involved).

 

Another problem with the P3D platform is its cost- $200 is pretty steep, even for serious enthusiasts. This is compounded by the fact that LM seems to release a new version every year, with just enough differences to require addons to be updated by developers to run in the new version. While many developers are willing to update their products to V4 to take advantage of 64bit, it seems doubtful that developers would continue to support older versions over time (this is already happening, with some developers planning to support only FSX and P3D v4 in the near future), putting a damper on anyone who wants to use P3D for the long run but doesn't want to spend $200 every year on a new sim.

 

X-Plane 11

 

X-Plane 11, it would seem, seeks to shed the stigma of earlier versions as being user-unfriendly by introducing an entirely new UI and streamlining nearly every aspect of the user experience. In this it succeeds- I found myself flying after spending no more than 2 minutes configuring the demo for my PC (in stark contrast to earlier versions). While the X-Plane community is admittedly small, there still are a good amount of high-quality aircraft and scenery products available.

 

X-Plane's small community size still handicaps it, with XP users outnumbered by MSFS users by a factor of roughly 10 to 1. Because of this, it is possible that only a few high quality addons will be produced over the useful life of each version of the sim- the community size just doesn't justify the expense of so much new software. This contrasts sharply with MSFS sims, with a community so large that the possibility of a given addon being developed became more a question of when than if. However, it seems that X-Plane could have a fighting chance of breaking into the mainstream if enough users are willing to switch over to user-friendly XP11 (I myself am considering such a move after seeing how many study-level classics like the MD-80 and 727 are available).

 

 

What are your thoughts on these platforms?

 

 

Jonas

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I'm just gonna pull up a chair, grab a cold one, and watch the circus unfold before me. :cool:

Robert Kerr

3D Modeler & Texture Artist

I7 4790K @ 4.4ghz, GTX-970 w/4GB, 8gb DDR 3 RAM, two SSDs, and Win 7 64 bit.

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I will not buy anything from Steam. Period. But my distaste there is less with Steam than with developers who solely release their product via Steam, thus depriving me of the choice of where to spend my money. (Years ago I wrote Bethesda, "I will gladly give you $50 for Skyrim on disc, that I can install and play as I did Morrowind and Oblivion, but will not give 50 cents for a Steam version".)

 

Beyond that, if we have three ...or four ...or more, different, mutually incompatible, flight sims, we will be in the same situation the race sim community has been for years - popular items will be converted, "legally" or not, between them. If any developer, by whatever means, makes his sim too difficult to mod, or actively discourages free mods, he shoots himself in the foot; one reason for the popularity and long life of MS Flight Sim has been its "modability", in fact MS actively encouraged this by releasing the SDKs.

 

This brings up another reprehensible trend in game development recently. At one time developers released demos of games - you could play one level, or play for twenty minutes, or drive one car on one track, etc. If you liked the demo you bought the full game. Today many developers release, as a finished product, what we've known as a demo, then nickle and dime you to death with "DLC" to flesh it out. Another group who will not get a penny from me. (cough, cough ...Railroad Simulator)

 

Finally, I deplore those developers who have found job security via "perpetual beta" games, never releasing a final product but dribbling out every few weeks a new version or a new "build" (and usually every third or fourth release renders half the existing mods incompatible, so the poor mod creators must decide whether to spend their time creating new mods or constantly updating their old ones). (ahem ...ETS2)

 

So, rather than rehash want lists we've all discussed in other forums, I present three "dealbreakers" for me:

 

- Steam only release

- crippled games requiring a fortune in "DLC" to be worth playing

- no final product

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I don't drink beer, but this once, if you have an extra one......... :pilot:

 

I don't drink beer either but I'll sit here with my bottle of JD and also enjoy the show. Welcome to the forum(s) Jonas.

 

Coke is better than Pepsi...Chevy is better than Ford...Ferrari is better than Lamborghini...and I like Sofia better than Gina....here we go again.....Doug

Intel 10700K @ 5.0 Ghz, Asus Maxumus XII Hero MB, Noctua NH-U12A Cooler, Corsair Vengence Pro 32GB 3200Mhz, Geforce RTX 2060 Super GPU, Cooler Master HAF 932 Tower, Thermaltake 1000W Toughpower PSU, Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit, and other good stuff.
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I'm just gonna pull up a chair, grab a cold one, and watch the circus unfold before me. :cool:

 

I'll supply copious amounts of popcorn!

People actually spend more time doing this kind of thing than actually simming!

Robin

Cape Town, South Africa

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So far we have more audience than participants.

 

More beer and popcorn needed ! :D

 

Edit: Poor Jonas, first post and thrown in at the deep end. As His Honourable von Peerhoven would say: "tsk tsk ..." :cool::pilot:

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Okay already! I'll bite...

 

"The Next Generation of Sims-Which will take off?"

 

I expect they all will. Flight sims are becoming popular again, look at the number of games for mobiles in the App Store/Google Play Store. Desktop PC flight simmers haven't had such a choice since the late 1990's (and have never had an Early Access sim AFAIK) and to many it's all too new and risky. But look at other sim genres and see how many titles there are for train sims, racing sims, truck sims and even bus sims (and these are just the transport-themed sims!) they all have their loyal groups of enthiastic modders just like flight sim has, so there's room for more flight sims than the current three or four. I wonder why Flightgear never gets mentioned in these lists, there's some groundbreaking development going on over there as well...

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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Hi Jonas, you describe the situation exactly as I'm experiencing and assessing it, almost to the tee!! I've stopped buying add-ons because I'm just not sure which way to go. Got bitten twice in the last month or so having bought an FSX/P3D add-on and only weeks later the developer released a new P3D4 installer and expects me to pay an "upgrade fee" (JustSim). Or they make a few small cosmetic changes to a product and release it as a brand new P3D4 version and expect me to pay full price for it AGAIN.

 

So I've also decided to just grab a beer and watch the whole charade play out. This isn't good for our hobby, because it is fragmenting the market and reducing funds to developers.

 

So far, I really like the look of X-Plane 11 but add-ons for it are fewer and more expensive. P3D4 is an obvious choice coming from FSX, but I'm not prepared to pay over the top for a new version every year, so I'm holding back on that one and FSW actually looks decent, but not compelling (yet) and its insistence on Steam exclusivity is cause for concern, which may be its ultimate downfall.

 

For now, I'm happily playing on my old FSX boxed and Steam versions and actually don't even care about this whole 64-bit fanfare. Fortunately I'm into small planes and small airfields and don't have a problem with memory, crashes or frame-rates.

i5-10600K @ 5.0 GHz, Gigabyte Z490M motherboard, RTX 2080 Super 8GB, 64GB DDR4 3200MHz, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p monitor, CH Products Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals, Track IR 5, Oculus Quest 2, Windows 10 64-bit
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Actually, FS2004 reigns supreme.

 

We spend more time flying it than tweaking, buying new hardware, filling forums with moans & groans, asking for tips to make the sims work better, trying to fit in add-ons where they do not belong, waiting for updates to download, & retrying again when they crash, searching for the Holy Grail, comparing one 64bit sim to another & by waiting for the next best!

 

It just works!

Robin

Cape Town, South Africa

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Well said Sir!

FS2004 has reigned supreme since it's one and only Service Pack was released.

It's still the yardstick by which I judge all other flight sims, and you are right again, none have matched it yet for stability, performance, compatibility and range of available add-ons even today.

Yes there are better-looking sims, but beauty is only skin-deep as they say! ;)

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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I would agree with that, were it not for the limited viewing system of FS2004. I bought FS2004 after FSX Steam, when I became aware of all the add-ons for it. But I was a bit disappointed by the lack of Virtual Cockpit views. There is only the Pilot View and nothing else. I like to switch to Co-Pilot, Passenger and/or Other Crew stations. There is also no decent Fly-By View in FS2004, something I love in FSX, especially if an aircraft has a good soundpack. But apart from that, yes FS2004 is a great sim with incredible longevity.
i5-10600K @ 5.0 GHz, Gigabyte Z490M motherboard, RTX 2080 Super 8GB, 64GB DDR4 3200MHz, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p monitor, CH Products Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals, Track IR 5, Oculus Quest 2, Windows 10 64-bit
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Howdy Folks!

 

Recently it's been becoming more and more clear that the days of FSX reigning supreme are drawing to a close ...

 

I believe your assumption just isn't true, and your review of those three alternatives confirms, to me, that FSX will continue for many years, or as long as Win32 software can run on pc's. Dovetail has more than its share of bad, downright dumb, corporate decisions. P3D, still only for a limited, niche market, unless you can't read the fine print or take ignoble pride in being a scofflaw. Nice to see X-Plane get some improvements, but Saint Austin still hasn't handed down good default scenery or fixed ongoing problems in that sim.

 

None of the three alternatives have anywhere near the third-party support of FSX. With more aircraft, scenery, and third-party add-ons that I can probably use in my lifetime, FSX remains the best for my flightsim hobby needs. I still enjoy it, it looks great on my rig, and, perhaps most important of all, its support infrastructure from other hobbyists and by third-party vendors is the best and biggest.

 

The reports and predictions of FSX's death are, undoubtedly, greatly exaggerated.

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Don't want them or need them FS9.1 & FSX are doing fine

 

A great many existing simmers will agree with that! I have FS9.1 and FSX:SE, which I keep as a pet because it just can't run the FSX versions of the same scenery, aircraft and AI etc. that I have in FS9 at the same high settings (with an Athlon II 975 BE 3.6 OC'd to 4.1, 16Gb Ram, GTX750Ti 2Gb graphics). And the water effects are downright fugly - Atlantic-sized rollers on the smallest village pond - and they're a downright framerate killer too.

I also have FSW, which runs better than FSX:SE up to now, hopefully the effects can be better coded for 64-bit ESP than they were for 32-bit, and maybe some FSX scenery add-ons will port over, who knows?

I did try the XP11 demo which was just a slideshow on my PC, I did start fiddling with settings but I don't have time for that any more.

I also tried P3D (a mate of mine insisted on it!) and it did run great, fantastic, until I started installing add-ons - again I started fiddling with settings, and again I realised I just don't need the hassle.

It seems to me that today's flight simmers are demanding cinematic appearance and effects in HD detail, and that the PC platform is now struggling to cope with that demand - VR seems to be the way forward. I expect all the new sims will have VR support, and if successful, eventually they'll be VR only.

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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It seems to me that today's flight simmers are demanding cinematic appearance and effects in HD detail, and that the PC platform is now struggling to cope with that demand ...

 

Define 'flight simmer'. Maybe they expect this because they know it can be done - look at DCS world (their Normandy scenery does look very 'cinematographic', and to a lesser extent Aerofly FS2 does too).

 

But of course, there are compromises to be made (e.g. military aircraft only in DCS, very limited area, etc.)

 

It depends on what you want out of a flight sim, but you're not going to get it all at once. Not in the near future anyway ;)

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I should have edited 'flight simmers' to 'gamers'. Watch a video walkthrough of any FPS or Action title from the last 4-5 years to see what they've become used to.

If someone ever develops an FSX-type flight sim based on the Unreal Engine it'll be The Bomb, at least visually and performance-wise. There are wireless keyboards for X-Box and PS4 now, so the hardware is ready and waiting for a "proper" flight sim to hit the console market!

Re: the near future, P3D has VR support for Occulus Rift and HTC Vive built-in so we've already got it all... if we have a rig that can run it all, of course :rolleyes:

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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I did try the XP11 demo which was just a slideshow on my PC

I also ran the X-Plane 11 beta demo with my GTX980 and it was pretty close to a slideshow, regardless of settings. I then upgraded my graphics card to a GTX1070 (mainly for VR - Oculus Rift) and that same X-Plane 11 demo now runs silky smooth. That goes for FSW as well. So, I guess these new generation of 64-bit flight sims need the latest graphics cards with lots of memory. It is a never-ending cycle of upgrades unfortunately, unless you stick to the trusty old FS9 and FSX and deal with the occasional OOM.

 

I also fully agree that VR is the future. I was a bit underwhelmed by my Oculus Rift initially as the resolution is quite grainy and there is light streaking in high-contrast screens. But when you run a game which is optimised for VR, it is out of this world fantastic. I'm particularly enjoying a sim called Lunar Flight and Aerofly FS2 looks great in VR as well. FSX and P3D3 are nice in VR using Flyinside, but I find the cockpits too pixellated and can't read the instruments. I think the next generation of VR headsets might be real deal. Hopefully they will have better resolution, wider field of view, no screendoor and godray effect and will be cordless.

i5-10600K @ 5.0 GHz, Gigabyte Z490M motherboard, RTX 2080 Super 8GB, 64GB DDR4 3200MHz, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p monitor, CH Products Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals, Track IR 5, Oculus Quest 2, Windows 10 64-bit
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.... Watch a video walkthrough of any FPS or Action title ...

 

Lol, I've become convinced there is an entire group of "gamers" now for whom playing games, whether sims, fps, rpg, or even arcade, is secondary to making photorealistic multiscreen videos of everything they do to upload to youtube. "Here's me landing the exquisitely detailed (payware name) 747 at Hong Kong", "Here's me flying the (expensive payware) Lear over Paris, notice the dog sitting by the BMW in front of the cafe", "This is my Ferrari lapping at Brands Hatch", "Here I am fighting the Overloard at the end of level 287", "Here's how to find the Sword of Doofus". Not knocking it, I just find it odd.

 

Taken to extremes - a local digital TV channel airs 3 or 4 episodes of a thirty minute program each weekend which is nothing but some lady playing an fps (may be an rpg) while discussing it with some guy; you never see them, the game occupies the screen (it's always the same game - she's fighting a dragon in a cave).

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FSX with Steve's DX10 fixer makes all OOM go away even with even a low end machine. It is still the way to go for reality, all addons work, I can fly into KPHX and see American or EGGL and see British Airways as a hub. If properly installed and maintained FSX is the benchmark for reality...and I don't have to spend 200 for an upgrade!
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FSX has had a great life, and still has plenty of life in it yet, but many of you are not addressing the original thread question. Like it or not, the world changes, and the world of computers changes pretty fast. Things are great for FSX users now, with computers that run it well and plenty of new add-ons. But this will change. Will you still be so enthralled with FSX when the publishers aren't publishing FSX add-ons any more because they've moved on to newer sims? Or when most of the world is running Windows 12 and FSX is no longer compatible? Will you be scavenging flea markets for old computers so you can continue to run FSX?

 

The older generation always finds the younger generation odd. But newer PC gamers find things like live-streaming, video, VR, etc. very enticing. Then there's the whole world of non-PC based games. There are Android and iOS simulators with huge followings. You can ignore these things, but the world around you will advance without you.

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I think the general response so far has been fairly predictable actually.

Asking existing simmers which new sim they would buy is like knocking on the door of someone who already has double-glazing to sell them new double-glazing.

I agree that the new sims must therefore appeal to the mass market, and that surely means moving away from the Personal Computer - which was launched around the same time as the VCR, remember - onto the more modern and accessible devices with mass market appeal, and I think we're seeing the beginning of that transitional stage.

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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I have long hesitated saying this as I do not wish to insult anyone, but if major recent threads at flightsim.com are all about installing thirteen year old MS FS9 on newly bought PCs, we have a serious case of (flight sim) technology lock-in.

 

And more to the point, why would newcomers with no vested interests in MS FS be interested in such discussions?

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if major recent threads at flightsim.com are all about installing thirteen year old MS FS9 on newly bought PCs, we have a serious case of lock-in (flight sim) technology.

 

Some of these are returning simmers from back in the day, but some are new simmers who have found, been given, or have actually chosen FSX or FS9 because they want a "serious" flightsim, and have no choice but to install it on their new Windows 10 laptop.

Why would newcomers be interested in such discussions? A good question. If they don't like the style of the latest Call of Duty epic on XBox, they just get the PS4 version instead, or vice-versa. With "serious" flight sims, you have no choice but to become a PC expert first, and this puts most newcomers off.

Tim Wright "The older I get, the better I was..."

Xbox Series X, Asus Prime H510M-K, Intel Core i5-11400F 4.40GHz, 16Gb DDR4 3200, 2TB WD Black NVME SSD, 1TB Samsung SATA SSD

NVidia RTX3060 Ti 8Gb, Logitech Flight Yoke System, CH Pro Pedals, Acer K272HL 27", Windows 11 Home x64

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I first got started with FS when it was on a floppy disk, even then I couldn't land the plane properly lol.

Then I got FS2002, wow that was great! Graphics looked fantastic compared to the floppy disk version I had.

Then came FS2004 and I remember seeing posts where people were having to buy new PC's to handle it, then it stated to become expensive.

I got a new PC and ran FS2004 and I like tweaking so course I found it easy to fiddle with and if you remembered to back things up it was easy to put right (most times) lol.

I got in to doing AI and spent most of my time doing that, even converting flyables to AI and playing with flight plans etc.

 

So moving on I got FSX, to be hones I didn't like it at first mainly because I got so used to FS2004. I took it off my PC but recently installed it again and now I love it, I'm still learning things on it and asking questions in the forum.

My grandson re-calibrated my joystick and made it a lot better, now the aircraft take off on the centre line and stay there till I lift off, and on landing it is so much easier to line up, before the slightest touch sent the aircraft way off so I hardly ever flew, now I'm loving it.

So I got XP-11, bought the boxed version, I like it and the scenery is good but again it is a learning curve and at my age it is becoming harder lol, also the lack of aircraft is a downfall plus as I said earlier I like to tweak and tweaking XP is not easy, especially for me any way lol.

 

So going back to FSX I decided to start buying Orbx scenery, I'm building it up month by month and now I'm starting to fly again and the new scenery had made a world of difference.

 

Tiger mentioned above about consoles have wireless keyboards an mouse, I have often said a flight sim on one of those with the graphics they produce would be awsome, I used to wonder why they never did a flight sim for a console but maybe soon they will.

 

As for Steam, I don't go there.

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