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Flight Sim Dilemma


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Greetings Everyone!

 

I am a returning flight simmer trying to decide which sim to use. I began flight simulation on the Commodore 64 and have progressively advanced through all iterations of MSFS. Once Microsoft cancelled the development of its simulator I gave up pursuing the hobby. At the time there wasn't a sim with the same quality that I was interested in. Fast forward to the present and I see a resurgence in the quality and number of sims available.

 

I've pretty much narrowed my selection to two sims, X Plane 11 and P3D v4 (which I see comes out this Friday). There are things I like about both and choosing has been very hard for me. So I thought the community here might be able to assist me in making a decision with more info or points I have failed to consider.

 

What I'm looking for in a Sim:

Realism - I want to mimic real world flight as much as possible while allowing me to have fun.

Graphics - I'm a graphics snob! I love eye candy. Realistic scenery, beautiful clouds, golden rays from the rising sun, ect.

Affordable - I don't need to break the bank to get started buying 500 bucks in add-ons.

 

I believe that covers what I'm looking for.

 

I tried X Plane 11, briefly. While the sim doesn't look bad my one problem was that the single engine prop would veer to the left during take-off. It was also everywhere in the sky and I had to constantly hold the stick to keep it somewhat on course. I had a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and was using it during the flight, I'm not sure if that was the problem or not. I know, realism wise a yoke would have been better but I just couldn't afford to get one.

 

I know nothing about P3D other than its based off FSX's engine and the few videos I could find on youtube.

 

I'm in a unique position right now and money is VERY tight. I wont bore you with the particulars other than to say for almost 11 years I kept my parents out of a Nursing Home. Unfortunately they were beyond the care I could give them as a nurse at home and I had to make a tough decision. In doing so I am on a shoestring budget and need something to occupy my time. I checked back at my favorite past time for those long years and was glad to see its resurgence. Now its time to get back in and FLY!

 

I didn't intent to write a novel here and I apologize for my long windedness. It's good to be back and I hope to make a few friends along the way!

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Welcome back to the hobby.

You do realise that there has to be some sort of compromise with what you want (Realism & Graphics) with what finances you have.

 

by the way, rudder trim can be used to keep a plane straight, as a single engine plane has centrifugal force acting on it.

 

So, get the sim that best matches your hardware specs. With the new 64bit sims being released, you will need a strong PC to run it.

 

Then, for realism, you would need a yoke & pedals, when flying a plane that in real life is so equipt.

Then you need to decide what type of aircraft you enjoy flying. There are quite a lot of freeware stuff out there, that are just as good as payware.

Then you have to decide where you like to fly, & look for suitable add-on scenery that will give you the eye candy you enjoy.

 

So, have a look at your budget & see what you can get. Also, when you have chosen that is right for you, explore & get to know it, before loading it up with add-ons.

Remember, basics is best!

 

& just have fun!

Robin

Cape Town, South Africa

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Thanks for the welcome back zswobbie1

 

Before all the junk hit the fan I was able to get a reasonably good gaming machine, here are my specs:

i7-7700K 4.20GHz Processor

16 GB DDR4 System Memory

2 Nvidia 1080 graphic's Cards, both 8 GB onboard memory (not in SLI config yet)

 

I think that can handle most any sim but I've been away for so long I'm not sure how heavy hitting they are anymore.

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XP11 offers a demo (as you obvioulsy know), and if I am not mistaken LM will offer a 1 month try-out for its P3D v4 (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

I refrain from giving advice on which sim is the best, because zealotry is almost a religious thing in the flight sim community.

 

However, as far as flight models go, I know just about as many real world pilots (GA aircraft) who swear by X-Plane as those who wouldn't want to trade their P3D for all the money in the world. There are so many factors involved, your hardware setup, your software settings, the add-on aircraft you use, even your state-of-mind I guess. Hence, the only way to find that one out is trial.

 

I prefer X-plane mainly because of - IMHO - a superior default scenery. But honestly, that is mostly a matter of personal taste more than anything else.

 

Whatever you choose, never forget to have fun, even if we're not allowed to call flight sims games :D

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I still use FSX (Boxed) as my staple with FS9 as a backup mainly for my Level D 767 flights.

 

Both running in Win 10 64 bit environment.

 

I tried FSW but refunded - not really ready for prime time (yes I know it's early access), no jets and no roadmap as to when these will be included.

 

I just downloaded the demo of XP11 and quite like what I saw having taken off in the 747 and hand flown a bit around Seattle. However apparent there is a learning curve for those versed in the ways of the MS sims and the price tag is, well, rather steep.

 

P3D, well my conscience doesn't really permit me to pose as something I'm not in order to acquire it and even on the "student" licence is still quite pricey and (so far as I can see) no jetliners included by default.

 

So smart money at present would be still be FSX, these days the Steam edition, but FSW worth keeping an eye on to see how it develops.

Vern.
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Because of torque and propeller factor (P-factor), all single engine props pull to the left on takeoff and during climb (well, okay not all: the Russian Sukhoi engines spin "backwards" and pull to the right). In other words, you should always need some right rudder while taking off and while climbing. That is a good realism setting.

 

And if you are looking for realism, the SECOND thing I would buy is some rudder pedals. You'll need them on takeoff, when climbing, to turn, and to slip. Be sure to get a set that has a USB connection. Good luck and welcome back.

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If money is tight, bear in mind that many add-ons for P3D are priced higher than their FSX versions due to P3D's limited market and licensing costs. For example, here's what PMDG said:

 

"... we were very candid about the fact that our P3D products will be significantly more expensive than our FSX products."

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Thanks to everyone for replying. I think I'm leaning more toward X plane at the moment. I appreciate all the feedback and information. Ill have to save up for a yoke and rudder pedals, I just can't right now. I'll have to figure out the keyboard short cut for trimming.

 

I've been looking at add-ons for both, I didn't realize that ones for P3D were more expensive.

 

I do have one question - does X Plane have an HD scenery add-on like OrbX?

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I do have one question - does X Plane have an HD scenery add-on like OrbX?

 

Hm, yes and no. Most XP simmers use a combination of Alpilotx's HD Mesh scenery and SimHeaven's W2xp. You can downoad the files for free, or make a (small) donation. Other than that, it does require some work on your behalf, and you should carefully follow instructions.

 

Also note that currently alpilotx's mesh scenery v3 is an older version. and v4 for XP11 is in the works.

 

The relevant links are:

http://www.alpilotx.net/downloads/x-plane-10-hd-mesh-scenery-v3/

http://simheaven.com/?page_id=14813

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Hm, yes and no. Most XP simmers use a combination of Alpilotx's HD Mesh scenery and SimHeaven's W2xp. You can downoad the files for free, or make a (small) donation. Other than that, it does require some work on your behalf, and you should carefully follow instructions.

 

Also note that currently alpilotx's mesh scenery v3 is an older version. and v4 for XP11 is in the works.

 

The relevant links are:

http://www.alpilotx.net/downloads/x-plane-10-hd-mesh-scenery-v3/

http://simheaven.com/?page_id=14813

 

 

Thanks for the links RatRace, Ill give them a check.

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I have had experience with all of the above mentioned sims except for the P3D variants, which for all practical purposes are just FSX with some improvements. I find that the MS sims and XPlane have differences most of which are due to the manner in which the sim treats the flight model. The result often seems to be that the XP planes are somewhat twitchier and tend to be a bit more unstable than the MS offerings, particularly the default airplanes in MS (which, although good, have never been known for high fidelity flight models). Some simmers consider this to be more "realistic", but having flown the real airplanes I think XP sometimes overdoes it. The left turning tendency you have found is perfectly realistic, though, and if you tried shoving the throttle full forward on a P-51 you would find yourself off the left side of the runway before you could react, not that there is even enough rudder travel on that airplane to handle the P factor prior to getting some airspeed and wind over the rudder! There are a great many tweaks that you can do with both sims, but most of us are not in a position to have a good enough idea of how the real thing flies to make those adjustments be anything other than "what we want".

 

Overall, I think it is a tossup, especially now that high fidelity add on aircraft and also high fidelity scenery are available for both. Neither one would suit me right out of the box, although I admit that XP 11 comes much closer than FSX, which should be no surprise considering that it is brand new!

 

Cost wise, FSX steam edition, particularly when it is on sale as it occasionally is, is the market leader in bang for the buck. I have seen it on sale for as little as $4.95. It will run better on a low end machine too, but from what you have told us you will have no worries along those lines!

 

The FSX world is farther along in terms of add-ons, but XP is catching up fast, so there is no real angst to be felt there.

 

Then again, you can always go with XP11 and look for FSXSE on sale for 5 bucks! Best of both worlds.

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Thanks for the nice write up avallillo. I had considered P3D but unfortunately they don't accept paypal, so that is out of the question.

 

I had looked at Flight Sim World but its only in Alpha and I want to see how Dovetail handles it before I put any money on it. I'm not sure Ill fly any heavies in any of these flight sims but it would be nice to have the option.

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For fun, & just looking outside the box, have a look at FlightGear! - It's free!

http://www.flightgear.org/

 

It is surprisingly good, with VERY decent scenery & some great planes. (They have the most detailed Shuttle I've seen. It's worth the free download!....

 

They could, however, be more specific with system requirements. "Runs on an $800 system", "you won't need $3000 worth of new hardware", isn't exactly informative.

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Welcome back to this great hobby :)

 

I remember seeing the results of a survey where people voted for things that made their flight simulator “enjoyable” and “smoothness” (lack of jumping and jitters) was the winner. Too much realism and too much graphics can adversely impact your frame rate.

 

I do not know how tight is your “very tight budget”, but I get an experience that I like from a $900 PC, but I “settle-for” default scenery and mostly default airplanes and a cheap HOTAS. The software and add-on scenery, airplanes, controls are easier to manage than the initial “Gaming-PC”, my $900 rig is a good entry level rig. If you already have a good “Gaming-PC” then you can get into flight simming easily but if you have to buy a new gaming-pc then it might slow you down. Look around for threads about startup costs and annual budgets. Here is a cost related thread that I contributed to. https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?301825-Something-that-makes-one-go-quot-Hmmm-quot

 

Good luck

JD

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Welcome back to this great hobby :)

 

I remember seeing the results of a survey where people voted for things that made their flight simulator “enjoyable” and “smoothness” (lack of jumping and jitters) was the winner. Too much realism and too much graphics can adversely impact your frame rate.

 

I do not know how tight is your “very tight budget”, but I get an experience that I like from a $900 PC, but I “settle-for” default scenery and mostly default airplanes and a cheap HOTAS. The software and add-on scenery, airplanes, controls are easier to manage than the initial “Gaming-PC”, my $900 rig is a good entry level rig. If you already have a good “Gaming-PC” then you can get into flight simming easily but if you have to buy a new gaming-pc then it might slow you down. Look around for treads about startup costs and annual budgets. Here is a cost related thread that I contributed to. https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?301825-Something-that-makes-one-go-quot-Hmmm-quot

 

Good luck

JD

 

Thanks JD! Much appreciated. I've got the gaming PC covered thank goodness. It's a rather high end model since I like to play rather graphic intensive games. It's just getting the simulator I want now - or at least deciding which to use.

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Thanks JD! Much appreciated. I've got the gaming PC covered thank goodness. It's a rather high end model since I like to play rather graphic intensive games. It's just getting the simulator I want now - or at least deciding which to use.

 

Keep in mind that most of these flight simulators are more CPU intensive than graphics.

Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer!  ✈️

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Keep in mind that most of these flight simulators are more CPU intensive than graphics.

 

Gotcha! I have a i7 7700K 4.20 GHz Processor which should hold up decently. Might need up upgrade my RAM to 34 or 64GB, sitting at 16GB right now. Of course once I get back on my feet that is.

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Hm, yes and no. Most XP simmers use a combination of Alpilotx's HD Mesh scenery and SimHeaven's W2xp. You can downoad the files for free, or make a (small) donation. Other than that, it does require some work on your behalf, and you should carefully follow instructions.

 

Also note that currently alpilotx's mesh scenery v3 is an older version. and v4 for XP11 is in the works.

 

The relevant links are:

http://www.alpilotx.net/downloads/x-plane-10-hd-mesh-scenery-v3/

http://simheaven.com/?page_id=14813

 

What addons do you use for your XP11 setup? If you don't mind me asking.

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What addons do you use for your XP11 setup? If you don't mind me asking.

 

Well, apart from Alpilotx's HD Mesh scenery and SimHeaven's W2xp, I use Xenviro http://xenviro.net/ as a comprehensive weather addon, including real time weather.

 

As I (almost) never fly heavies, I really don't have any addons in that area.

 

All (payware) Alabeo/Carenado GA aircraft look great in X-plane, as they do in FSX or P3D I would imagine, and the flight models are more than adequate albeit not perfect.

 

Also highly recommended is the Pipistrel Panthera v3 by Aerobask http://store.x-plane.org/Pipistrel-Panthera-v3_p_590.html

 

But my absoute favourite is the Airfoillabs Cessna 172S Skyhawk SP, because it is a very realistic 'study level' aircraft, comparable to A2A (and IMHO even better!).

https://www.airfoillabs.com/

 

I don't fly choppers, but it is my understanding that the DreamFoil Bell 407 is the must have helicopter in XP.

http://store.x-plane.org/Bell-407-XP10_p_299.html

The X-Trident Bell 412 appears not to be too bad either http://store-x-plane-org.3dcartstores.com/Bell-412_p_326.html

Maybe one day I'll give them both a try :)

 

The choice of detailed payware airports may not be as extended as for FSX/P3D, but the Airports by Nimbus Simulation are very decent. I don't own all of them, but KORD and KMIA are excellent.

http://store.x-plane.org/Airports-by-Nimbus-Simulation_c_158.html

And last but not least, there are lots of freeware scenery (airfield) addons, to many to mention. Always worth checking out the flightsim libraries!

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One really annoying problem with x-plane is that if they implement new features, new bugs are introduced at the same time.

That's been the case at least since x-plane v2 and that's what was so frustrating in the long run.

 

After a long break I thought I'd try v11 and wouldn't you know, a new show stopper bug/feature? has been introduced in v11. (Strong pitch down in ground effect wich makes realistic landing impossible with all low wing aircraft)

 

I can't argue about that. All I can say is that the developer, Austin Meyers, will eventually address the problem, that is, if you can convince him there is indeed a bug :D

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Well, apart from Alpilotx's HD Mesh scenery and SimHeaven's W2xp, I use Xenviro http://xenviro.net/ as a comprehensive weather addon, including real time weather.

 

As I (almost) never fly heavies, I really don't have any addons in that area.

 

All (payware) Alabeo/Carenado GA aircraft look great in X-plane, as they do in FSX or P3D I would imagine, and the flight models are more than adequate albeit not perfect.

 

Also highly recommended is the Pipistrel Panthera v3 by Aerobask http://store.x-plane.org/Pipistrel-Panthera-v3_p_590.html

 

But my absoute favourite is the Airfoillabs Cessna 172S Skyhawk SP, because it is a very realistic 'study level' aircraft, comparable to A2A (and IMHO even better!).

https://www.airfoillabs.com/

 

I don't fly choppers, but it is my understanding that the DreamFoil Bell 407 is the must have helicopter in XP.

http://store.x-plane.org/Bell-407-XP10_p_299.html

The X-Trident Bell 412 appears not to be too bad either http://store-x-plane-org.3dcartstores.com/Bell-412_p_326.html

Maybe one day I'll give them both a try :)

 

The choice of detailed payware airports may not be as extended as for FSX/P3D, but the Airports by Nimbus Simulation are very decent. I don't own all of them, but KORD and KMIA are excellent.

http://store.x-plane.org/Airports-by-Nimbus-Simulation_c_158.html

And last but not least, there are lots of freeware scenery (airfield) addons, to many to mention. Always worth checking out the flightsim libraries!

 

Thanks so much!

 

I like flying GA aircraft and not the Heavies much like yourself. Might migrate to a dual engine prop but my favorite has always been the Cessna!

 

I hate hearing about bugs but I guess there in every sim to some extent. I don't understand what you mean by a 'Strong pitch down in ground effect' unless you mean the nose wants to drop during landing when it shouldn't? I'm still kinda new to this.

 

Ive been also looking at xEnviro too. Seems to be better than the alternative if more expensive. Only I don't like is there website, I can't tell if there active or not considering the long list on there roadmap. Makes me a bit squeamish about plopping down that much cash.

 

Thanks again so much, really appreciate all the feed back in this thread. :)

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Exactly. This 'feature' hasn't been there until v11 and I'm sure that Austin though a lot about how and how strong to implement this.

This makes it difficult to convince him that it's actually wrong.

 

This is getting OT, but Austin has years of real world experience flying low wing aircraft, and being so unrealistic, I really doubt he added this as a 'feature'. Seems more like an unintentional side-effect of making improvements elsewhere in the flight model algorithms.

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Okay, I used my remaining balance on Steam to purchase XP11! I also returned a few things that will net me a return to paypal and ordered the CH Eclipse Yoke, which I'm really excited about since I've never had one to sim with.

 

I am waiting on one more return to purchase xEnviro and possible get rudder peddles or the Saitek throttle quadrant. Not sure which to go, I'm leery about the being able to use the peddles properly.

 

I thought of something else. What do you guys use for flight plans. I had a great flight plan addon back in my FSX days. I think it was Copilot or something similar? I'm not sure. It would access the scenery database and list every airport, VOR, NDB, ect and allow for some pretty versatile plans. It would also show on the virtual Garmin so you could track your flight that way.

 

Thank again everyone, you have all been most helpful. I might need help later on trying to get Mesh v3 and ortho4xp installed. It seems a bit daunting lol.

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