BlueAero Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I'm a total noob here but have been a lurker for a long time but now need to ask a question so here I am. Here's the situation: I'm flying my shiny and very fast Mooney Acclaim from KSPI to KPWK (Springfield, IL to Chicago Executive), cruising IFR at 3500 through some really nasty weather with heavy rain and a thick cloud cover down to just a few hundred feet AGL. Winds are howling from the east at 25 knots. On initial approach, ATC tells me to "Descend and maintain 2300, expect vectors ILS Runway 16 circle to land runway 6 left hand approach". I have been an avid F-simmer for the past 5 years and never once have had this command issued to me. After my initial confusion, I quickly made the determination that the command must mean to use the localizer for runway 16 as a basic guide to the airport and to somehow "sidestep" all the way to a perpendicular runway (6). Since the command was "circle to land", I decided to overfly 16 and then make a sweeping 270 degree turn to my left, eventually turning west downwind for runway 6. With the visibility so bad, I decided to do an extra long final to give me plenty of room to line up properly. However, the runway was obscured almost all the way down to the ground and I came in at an angle and way too high once the runway finally became visible to me (runway 6 has no navaids or PAPI lights and is totally a visual approach). I issued a go-around and made a second attempt, also with a similar result. Frustrated, I decided to force the landing anyway, came in a bit off the centerline and way too steep and ended up crashing! I'm glad no one saw it! :) Embarrassed, I have since pondered what should have transpired in a real-world scenario had this actually happened to me. My first question is, is my interpretation of the "circle to land" command correct? If not, please explain. Secondly, I'm thinking that, since conditions were well below minimums that ATC would have advised that operation conditions were IFR only and that I should divert to another airport. Excepting that, I'm thinking my reaction should have been to ask to divert instead of attempting a VFR approach under those conditions. Under a "sidestep" maneuver on a parallel runway I typically will simply "skid" my way to the proper runway using the rudder and only under conditions where the runway is clearly in sight. Under a "cirlce to land" command this procedure is impossible. Therefore, what specific advantage, other than the obvious one of locating the airport, does the command bring to the pilot when attempting an approach like this? Even though it is not an option in FSX, I am thinking it would have been better to do an old-fashioned "turn left, stop turn" radar approach direct to runway 6 instead of the cumbersome "circle to land" maneuver. Anyway, any help or guidance is much appreciated....thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrzippy Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Sounds overly complicated to me! I think in that situation I would have requested another approach. You would have thought, in those conditions, your approach would have been an ILS with glideslope to an appropriate runway, keeping it as simple as possible. Welcome to the forums! :D Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb613 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Hi Blue, Welcome aboard and that's my type of flying... It sounds like you have the basic concept down... Cruising IFR you should be at even altitudes - meaning 3000, 5000, 7000 for eastbound - 4000, 6000, 8000 for westbound - maybe that's just what your ATC program assigned you though... Approach Plate KPWK ILS 16: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1704/05028IL16.PDF Circle to land has several requirements that are a little different from a straight in approach... You're obligated to keep the runway in sight at all times while making your circle - usually - you'll have different minimums (higher) for a circling approach... As you can see on the referenced approach plate - bottom left indicates minimums... A straight in full ILS [s-ILS] (lateral and vertical guidance) has a minimum of 927 ft... A circling approach raises that to 1140 ft as it takes more time and better visibility to do it safely... There have been several high profile (Microsoft Millionare) crashes over the years of GA planes trying to make a circling approach - it takes more skill as you're concerned with visibility and landing while maneuvering your aircraft at slow speeds close to the ground... The advantage to Circle to Land as it could get you in to an airport that only has instrument procedures on one end - providing the visibility is above minimums - without it - if the winds are unfavorable for a single ILS it would close the airport to traffic... If they had an ILS on both ends or RNAV and your equipment could support it - of course you would use the one on the appropriate runway for winds... Even if it does have an ILS on both ends - there are countless reasons one may be NOTAM'd out of service... Yep - if the airport doesn't have an approach above minimums you're required to divert... Under normal circumstances ATC isn't going to give you radar steers to a runway... Here's a good write up on Circle to Land: http://www.altairva-fs.com/training/ava_training_ifr_circle.htm Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il88pp Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I would have followed the ILS down to minimums. If that gave enough visibility I would have turned right for a short semi circle. Then visually landed Rw6. If no visibility I would have climbed out. Regrouped. Then maybe request approach again, but only if there are more runway options to choose. Or if there is a Vor at the airport to guide me in close. If the second approach is also not successful I'd climb, then adjust the weather. Either made wind direction so that RW16 is active. Or changed clouds. Or divert to a different airport. --- If you circle 270 degrees there is a part in that where you are flying away from the airport. You lose visual contact with the airport. ILS16, then circle to land 06. The point of the ILS first is to descend to a lower altitude safely, where visibility is better. With then only a short bit to fly remaining, until you find your runway. A short 10 degree right hand circle makes more sense then a left hand 260. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Scott has the right of it, for the real world. Of course you can do most anything you care to do in the sim, a lot of which stand a good chance of getting you killed if you tried it in the real world, but in the sim your options are much expanded. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il88pp Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I don't doubt what Scott said. But after a descent using ILS 16 I would not make a left hand turn to RW06. (I said that is 270, but it's actually 450 degrees) I would turn right for RW06. Or, in a real airplane, I would request a different approach. Or divert. I tried the short circle a few times in FSX, and it sure isn't easy. You need good visibility at the lower altitude to have a chance at a landing. (But that's in a 737, in a Mooney it's probably easyer.) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueAero Posted April 7, 2017 Author Share Posted April 7, 2017 Thanks to all for the input. The reason I turned left for the circling approach is due only to the fact that ATC instructed me to do so. I tend to believe that, in the real world, the airport would likely have been closed and I would have been asked to divert. On final, the only time I was able to attain visual contact with the runway was a few hundred yards short of touchdown and the risk of flying into terrain prior to reaching the runway would be far too great to risk. In lieu of that, I'd like to think I would have been astute enough to request to divert on my own had I not been instructed to. I do believe that I would have been able to successfully complete the maneuver had the visibility been adequate. It wasn't and that was the real difference-maker. Regarding my cruise altitude, I read somewhere on another website that civil aviation craft are normally given altitudes at 500-foot increments above or below the thousand-foot level at any given flight level. If this is not the case (as Scott says), I have been misled. I am aware of the east-west differentiation in cruise altitudes so if that indeed is applicable to all air traffic, I will change my CA flight plans to reflect that so thanks for the clarification. Also, thanks for the reference on circle-to-land, Scott. A good explanation and I am somewhat gratified to know that I did interpret the command correctly even though conditions dictated that it was nonetheless doomed to fail. In the future, I will simply divert if I can't see the runway sooner. Otherwise, it was a very good learning experience for me. Once again, thanks to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb613 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Hi Blue, The X,500's are reserved for VFR Traffic - so 3500, 5500, 7500 east and 4500, 6500, 8500 west - this starts at 3000 ft - AGL Above Ground Level - and goes all the way to 18,000 MSL feet where everything turns IFR... Anything below 3000 ft AGL is the wild wild west and anything goes... seems like you have an excellent understanding of what's going on and pretty impressive for someone that hasn't had training with a 2nd post... I try to plan and fly in FS the same way I do in real life - it's what keeps it interesting for me... Looks like you're definitely on the right track... Here is how I started with FS - best site for navigation and procedures I've came across - although it's a little dated it's still relevant... http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ Enjoy... Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb613 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Hi Folks, Since this seems relevant - in regards to the previous challenges we spoke of - early reports of a Learjet crash into Teterboro NJ yesterday - had him on a "Circle To Land" - in very windy conditions with gusts - greater than 45 - so it may turn out this is another plane bit by the Circle To Land challenges... Actual Quotes from Pilots in regards to the approach used: It's pretty tricky there, you see IFR arrivals are given the ILS to Rnwy 06, with circle to land on Rnwy 01 when winds are Northerly. The close proximity to KEWR forces this type of arrival, and there is no approach to Rnwy 01 as that would cause you to overfly the other airport (or nearly so). if you look at the ILS to 06, you can't start the circle till passing Torby NDB (tower and approach control requirement), probably to avoid KEWR as much as possible or perhaps noise abatement. You're at 760' during the circle and you must circle to the right which places you between a group of towers, two being only about 100 feet below you and over the Meadowlands football stadium at mid field. You will lose sight of most of the airport, and after passing the stadium, you really have to bank hard to the left and pick up the approach end of Rnwy 01 in the turn, while descending because the approach end is offset to the south by about 3,000' when compared to Rnwy 06. All this said, if you have the wind strongly from the left (as it was today) your chance of overshooting final is really high, and your base to final is only about 1nm out. Since most jets circle at about 150-160 knots, this one maneuver really requires you have your "A" game on!!!! I fly a Hawker and have done that approach at night and its a ba-- breaker! Regards, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 On final, the only time I was able to attain visual contact with the runway was a few hundred yards short of touchdown and the risk of flying into terrain prior to reaching the runway would be far too great to risk. You might note that the approach minimums for circle to land are notably higher than for the ILS approach. For the Mooney, the ILS minima are 300 and 1, while the circle to land minima are 500 and 1 (faster aircraft need higher). Note that 1 mile visibility in both approaches, so your description says you didn't have enough visibility for a legal approach, and probably not a high enough ceiling, either. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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