Can't land Conrad's T-33.

[JonBuck]

I have Tim Conrad's beautifully detailed T-33 for FS9. It's a favorite of mine, but the controls are mushy and so unstable that I can't get lined up on final. When I let down to about 1,500' AGL I find that the aileron and rudder response is slow and the acft. begins to oscilate back and forth so much that I can't hold it steady enough to get lined up with the runway. The result is a non-landing or a crash. Kinda wierd and really frustrating!! Don't have this problem with any of my other sim aircraft though, and the FSX version doesn't act that way. I'd rather stay with FS9 for the time being.

 

Have tried to adjust the sensitivities in the Option section but it doesn't seem to have any effect, even when I put the sliders all the way to either end.

 

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Any suggestion? I'm stumped!! :(

 

JonB

[PhantomTweak]

I don't have that plane, but it sounds, to me, for what that's worth, like you're getting too slow for proper or control responses. That or you aren't hanging out enough flaps on approach. Or maybe a little of both.

Are you relying on the autopilot for control and manually working the throttle? Maybe you're getting too slow for the AP's PID controller to deal with.

I am assuming that during a normal, "up and away" flight regime, you are getting good, correct control surface response?

Maybe try going a little faster during your approach? Is there any kind of V-speed chart for it? Maybe there is a Vref in it someplace you missed?

Just my few little thoughts...

Pat☺

[mrzippy]

I downloaded and flew the FS2004 T-33 by Tim Conrad. I flew a circuit around L08, 5000 foot runway and a very short final approach. It handled very nicely and I had no problems lining up with the runway. Be sure to keep your speed up.

[Rnglgdj]

As was said keep the speed up to about to 125 k and slow the plane with the dive brakes / key. It flys well for me also. The best flying one I think is the F-16 Thunderbird # 7. I fly that a lot. It flys well for me and it maneuvers well.

[JonBuck]

Thanks for the response, guys. I think you are right about airspeed for the Conrad T-33. The acft seems more stable when I approach hotter than I would normally expect to do, and then chop the throttle when over the numbers. But I'd like to determine the right numbers for this sim version.

 

My FSX version seems more stable, but I'd like to get the FS9 version down since I've gone to all the trouble and work to create more realistic-looking airfields, sort of looking like when I was a kid watching the Calif Air Guard doing T&Gs at Van Nuys airport. Retro in today's vernacular, but then I'm now an old guy from that era!

 

Haven't been able to find any recommended speeds for the T-33, either for the prototype or simulator version, so I need to establish my own to make this work in a more realistic manner. (Of course Amazon would sell me a copy of the T-33's Pilot Operating Handbook, but I don't think I want to lay out the $s they are asking for!)

 

Since you got it to work for you I would like to ask a favor, if you would be so kind. Would you load up your Conrad T-33 for FS9 and shoot some landing for me and let me know what sim speeds work best and give you a stabilized approach to touchdown?

Airspeeds with flap, gear and speed brake setting

INITIAL APRCH

DWIND

BASE

FINAL

Over the FENCE

TDWN

 

I have been shooting for 185 on DWIND, 140 on Base, 120 on FINAL, 105 over the Numbers & 90 at TDWN. Obviously way off. Would be very interested to see what you get.

 

Hope this is not too much to ask.

 

JonB

[mrzippy]

I have been shooting for 185 on DWIND, 140 on Base, 120 on FINAL, 105 over the Numbers & 90 at TDWN. Obviously way off. Would be very interested to see what you get.

 

Hope this is not too much to ask.

 

JonB

 

Just from my one flight, you are way too slow! My approach starting about 2 miles out with first setting of flaps was about 150 knots. At about 1/4 mile out I dropped to full flaps and about 145 knots. Near touchdown, I opened the speed brake and landed at or near 140 knots. Seems a little fast, but normal for jet fighters. :eek:;)

[tiger1962]

Jon, there's a good article on the Lockheed T-33 here, with full specs and performance figures, and a description of a full flight from startup to shutdown:

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/january/pilot/f_t33

 

PS: I need to get my eyes tested, I first thought this thread title was "Can't STAND Conrad's T-33"!

[Rupert]

Hey Tiger, Great Link!! Thanks so much for posting it!! :cool::cool::cool:

 

Yes, I heard all the stories about the centrifical flow compressors. The oldest jet I ever turned up was the J-65. And it had a lot of lag! I can't imagine dealing with more than that!!:eek::eek:

 

Michael

[napamule2]

Tim recommends you don't fly will 100% fuel (will be over). He recommends 75% fuel with 100% for center tank and 50% for tip/main tank.

Chuck B

Napamule

[JonBuck]

Zippy: thanks for doing that for me. Tried your speeds out and it helps considerably. I find I need to hold it at about 175 to 200 until short final, but I think that's due to my computer and me. Pilot technique is definately required with this particular bird, but practice makes perfect! I'll keep working on it. Thanks again!

JonB

[Rupert]

Zippy: thanks for doing that for me. Tried your speeds out and it helps considerably. I find I need to hold it at about 175 to 200 until short final, but I think that's due to my computer and me. Pilot technique is definately required with this particular bird, but practice makes perfect! I'll keep working on it. Thanks again!

JonB

 

I also hope you went to the link Tiger1962 added! It's RW but full of good info you're not likely to find as easy again!! You might especially note the comments on throttle position on approach because the spool-up lag is so bad!!!:eek::eek: BTW: In that link they mention the importance of using the hydraulic speed brakes. Does the sim you're using incorporate that too?

[JonBuck]

Napamule;

 

Thanks for the reminder. Now I remember his remark but have never tried it out. Not sure I know how to set the fuel load but I'll look around.

 

Tiger: That's an interesting article. Thanks for the tip.

 

To All, many thanks for your help. This acft and it's forerunner, the P/F-80 are favorites of this old 'senior' as I grew up next to the Lockheed factory in Burbank where Lockheed made the P-38, Constellation, P-80 and T-33 and

Electra. I was always riding my bike over to the fenceline to watch 'em roll off the production line and dreamin'.

 

Shortly after the end of WWII Lockheed and the USAAF set out to introduce America's first operational jet to the public. My father took me to an airshow at Long Beach where the big event was a fly-over by one of the prototype P-80s. No one had ever seen such exhaust smoke or heard the kind of screaming noise the early jet engine made. We were all awe-struck! Then when they threw back the canvas and revealed a static P-80 sitting there, the crowd was stunned...it was painted overall grey which was nice, but where was the propeller?!? The single-pass fly-by was so fast you couldn't really tell it didn't have one; but on the ground... I was 10 years old. From then on P-51s and Corsairs began to take a back seat...the jet age was here!

 

I give tours at the Smithsonian's Air & Space Museum where we have "LuLu Bell" the first P-80, the one Milo Burcham flew at Muroc in 1943, and the last T-33 flown by the active USAF. That one is so polished and shiny that it looks like it just rolled off the line at Burbank or Palmdale. I love to point it out to the visitors.

 

Brings back lots of memories, so that's why I am so determined to get Conrad's beautiful T-33 to "straighten up and fly right" like the old song says.

 

So thanks for all your help. I'm glad I don't have to toss it on the trash heap!!

JonB

[napamule2]

First reduce fuel to: 99% Center, 45% for other tanks. Go Menu (Aircraft/Fuel and Payload). You can 'see' the balance point moving as you reduce fuel. What you do is swipe mouse pointer in % field (to highlight it) and then enter '45', then press TAB (keyboard) to set, click on next tank, repeat and 'OK' to finish and exit.

 

Problems: flaps have too much pitch, not enough drag. You have to use spoiler to slow to flaps speed.

 

So, you do the following to 'compensate' so you can land at 108 kts. COMPENSATE not Fix. OK? OK!

 

On base reduce throttle to 20%, extend spoiler to slow, lower gear and when at 180 kts extend 1 of flaps, dial in +1.0 pitch trim, extend 1 more of flaps (now full flaps), then increase throttle to 50% (to maintain 108 kts to 115 kts.

 

When over the number you reduce throttle but don't cut it completely (to prevent stall). It will still come down, slightly nose high (it's ok and is how real one's attitude 'looked'). Brakes are weak so leave the spoiler deployed and apply brakes until slowed to 30 kts. That's it.

 

Tim used 'Air Wrench' and is 'why' it works like it does. So cfg and air could use some tweaking and then it should fly right. This is a very nice model (what else is new) from Piglet. It's the dynamics that suck (hehe).

Chuck B

Napamule

Edit: Well I am 76 yrs old and remember those jet birds (I was Air Force 1960-1964). Two of my cousins were pilots in the Air Force (1960 - 1970) and became flight instructors (Vietnam Era). I know how to tweak this bird so it will fly right. Give me a few days - too many chores this 'payday' week - and will PM you when they are ready. How's that?

[JonBuck]

Wow! You really have it figured out... I'm very impressed, and grateful too. Thanks Chuck. I appreciate your offer and will anxiously await your findings. In the meantime I'll work on the fuel load as you suggested.

 

I'm 80 now and retired military. Had a hitch in the Air Force from 1954 to 1958. Wanted to fly but with glasses...no way back then. Pleaded for tower, photography or acft mechanic (think the current generation call them 'maintainers' today) but since I was a strapping 6'4" the kindly TSGT at Lackland sent me off to Air Police school and then to SAC of all assignments. Spent a lot of time walking around LeMay's B-36s and B-47s in the middle of the night. Later on I shipped out to England and eventually managed to get off that damned flightline with a transfer to HQ 3rd AF and their football team. Bing 6'4" finally paid off. Still consider that a lucky move. Don't think LeMay cared much for sports.

 

Later I spent the rest of my mil career in the Army, including 2 tours in RVN, and retired an 04. If I could have qualified for Air Cadets back in '54, I'm sure I would have had many training flights in a T-33 and hopefully later on in F-86s. Love the lines of those things!! But it was not to be, so maybe that's why I feel a certain affection for that old bird.

 

Funny thing, only got one ride in an AF plane the whole time I was active USAF, and that was when the football team flew up to some base in a C-47 for a game. I think they even beat us, too! Did manage to sneak up into many a B-36 cockpit while on guard during a midnight shift just to get out of the rain...those don't count as flights, I know, but they were fun. Never did get caught!

 

JonB

 

PS I envy your cousins and hope they made it through the RVN experience in one safe piece.

[Rnglgdj]

Zippy: thanks for doing that for me. Tried your speeds out and it helps considerably. I find I need to hold it at about 175 to 200 until short final, but I think that's due to my computer and me. Pilot technique is definately required with this particular bird, but practice makes perfect! I'll keep working on it. Thanks again!

JonB

 

 

Do a search for T-33 handbook. Manuals go for $17-20

[Rnglgdj]

Oh BTW do you do

touch and goes and also do you watch the replays and analysis of the flight that is available?

[JonBuck]

Yes, that is available. Have done it for many other flights. But with this one acft. I stopped. Not helpful in this case as my landings were uncontrollable. Couldn't learn a thing from them. All over the place. Really emberasing!!! :(

[JonBuck]

Yes, have seen the T-33 POH listed on Amazon too. One slightly used going for around $7.00. But I hesitate. Only need a few critical airspeeds, not all the inner pipes and 'stuff.

 

Also, I have been advised that the dynamics of the prototype and this simulator version are quite different. Mainly because of the program Tim used to create it. Evidently not the same as the design program that say, Alphasim uses. I never seem to encounter this kind of instability with their acft.

 

Seems a reasonable explaination for why this one sim acft acts so differently from all my others. I also have Alphasim's P/F-80, (basically the same acft) and I can almost land the thing hands-off.

 

Thanks for the tip. I may have to pony up the $7 afterall if I can't figure this thing out!!

JonB

[tiger1962]

I may have to pony up the $7 afterall if I can't figure this thing out!!

 

I've edited the flight dynamics and the panel view so that it's easier to land this T-33a now, I hope there's a screenshot here and the link to the edited panel, .cfg and .air files below that:

 

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8VC18OPBSe5LU1BSnNuZnh2R0k

 

When the google drive page opens, look to the upper right of the screen for a white arrow pointing down with a line under it. Click on the arrow to download the files.

[JonBuck]

Got it! Many thanks for passing this along. It'l be very handy as you don't know flap and trip settings during the busy approach to landing time, unless you cycle through the various views...and that's really distracting. With this T-Bird edition you really have to focus on what you're doing. Flipping views around during this critical time can really screw up your concentration!!! Thanks again

JonB

[mrzippy]

Time to make that Shooting Star shoot!

 

[tiger1962]

Now THAT looks like fun! Can we have a go, can we? Awww, go on!

[mrzippy]

Now THAT looks like fun! Can we have a go, can we? Awww, go on!

 

Have at it! I just "borrowed" the gun firing and flashes from the Section8 F-86 and made a few minor adjustments.

[tiger1962]

I just "borrowed" the gun firing and flashes from the Section8 F-86 and made a few minor adjustments.

 

A great idea! It certainly adds to the realism as well as the fun factor.