GridNorth Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I only seem to be able to start the engines when I have the fuel mixture set to rich. Is this normal? I've had to assign a key to "Mixture (Full Rich)". The problem with this is that there is no gauge to check the status of the key/mixture and I have a sneaky suspicion the mixture has caused me some problems on flights with engine displays going into the red. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrzippy Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Very true that "In your default Flight" your mixture setting(s) must be at full rich to start all jet aircraft. That's why I and others recommend setting up the "Default Flight" using a simple aircraft like the default 172 or Baron58. Jet aircraft normally don't use any type of mixture control since they don't have carburetors. Still thinking about a new flightsim only computer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Very true that "In your default Flight" your mixture setting(s) must be at full rich to start all jet aircraft. That's why I and others recommend setting up the "Default Flight" using a simple aircraft like the default 172 or Baron58. Jet aircraft normally don't use any type of mixture control since they don't have carburetors. Nor do they have fuel injection. Actually, mixture is for reciprocating engines - for jets the "mixture" control in FS is actually fuel on/off. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 To start, you'll probably be happier if you use Enable Automixture in your aircraft settings. Then after your knowledge comes along you can simulate real world. And I agree, with a jet the mixture setting is basically an on/off switch. With a very few exceptions, none of which apply in this question, Jet Fuel Controls do the rest for you. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallcott Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I only seem to be able to start the engines when I have the fuel mixture set to rich. Is this normal? I've had to assign a key to "Mixture (Full Rich)". The problem with this is that there is no gauge to check the status of the key/mixture and I have a sneaky suspicion the mixture has caused me some problems on flights with engine displays going into the red. Alan This equate to fuel shutoff valves being open, and they must be open. They have nothing whatsoever to do with engine displays going into the red. Thats from pushing throttles or temps too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GridNorth Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 Thanks everyone. My question was exactly because I could not see the relationship between a jet engine aircraft and a "mixture" setting. It just seemed illogical but as I am discovering FSX and logic are two words that do not always go together.:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Thanks everyone. My question was exactly because I could not see the relationship between a jet engine aircraft and a "mixture" setting. It just seemed illogical but as I am discovering FSX and logic are two words that do not always go together.:-) Actually, there is a certain amount of logic in this, since the engine controls for a jet are different from those of a recip, and since there are a limited number of keys and/or buttons to assign, they reuse them in slightly different ways, depending on the engine type. Note, though, that with the paid version of FSUIPC you can assign controls on a per aircraft type basis so that a float control on a Grumman Goose becomes a dive brake control on a Fouga Magister, it that's the way you want to do it. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomTweak Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Just so you know, CTRL+SHFT+F4 is the default key combo for Mixture Full Rich, which equates to Fuel ON for Jets. For engine shutdown, the default is CTRL+SHFT+F1, which is Mixture Full Lean/Fuel Cut-off. The two keys, CTRL+SHFT+F2 and CTRL+SHFT+F3 are Mixture Decrease step and Increase Step, respectively, and have no effect on jet engines. All these are, again, default FSX key combinations. Which is to say they are already built into the game. You should have seen that when you "assigned a key combo to Mixture Full Rich". Just wanted to give ya a heads up :D A lovely good day to all, and may you have great times in whatever you do :) Pat☺ [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again! Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GridNorth Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 Thank you for your input. Unfortunately default settings are no longer of any use to me. a) Over the course of trying to assign as many functions as possible to single key presses and various Saitek controls I have erased most of them as I was experiencing too many conflicts especially when used in combination with FSUIPC. b) Using them is beyond my limited intellect :-) Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il88pp Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Just stepping in to correct something. Two people said Mixture full\cutoff "serves as fuel cutoff" or "equates to fuel On" in jets. Not so. They are separate. You can switch the jet engines off with: "fuel cutoff" or with "mixture close". Using Fuel cuoff would make more sense. as a reas jet has no mixture knob. Jets don't have a mixture knob. But the built in command for mixture will shut down the engine too. (But saying "In a jet mixture equates to Fuel on is not the way to say it.) Where does this confusion come from. THe 737 Yes there is some confusion in the 737. In the 737 the The 3d fuel cutoff switch on the throttle quadrant in the vc is actually a fuel cutoff switch. It cuts the fuel, and only does that. But... the "same looking" fuel cutoff switch on the 2D panel.... does not!! It cuts the fuel, AND closes the mixture, AND ALSO kills the starter. So, if you would use the 2D switch, to shut down the engine, and then use the 3D switch to open fuel flow, and use the 3D starter switch... the engine does not start. AS THE 2D FUEL CUTOFF HAS CLOSED YOUR MIXTURE TOO. I wrote a quick fix for this. You will need some basic gauge knowledge to apply it. https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?295485-a-fix-for-the-default-b737_800-2D-fuel-valve-swirches (I'm aware you may not have meant ist as such, but saying mixture serves as shutdown in jets, is confusing to say the least. Though in fsx it will work.) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Two people said Mixture full\cutoff "serves as fuel cutoff" or "equates to fuel On" in jets. Not so. It IS so, if you're talking about native, default, FSX or P3D commands. There's no other available as an assignable key command (unless you found something I didn't). You can switch the jet engines off with: "fuel cutoff" or with "mixture close". Using Fuel cuoff would make more sense. I'd like to find the FSX (or P3D) "fuel cutoff" command. They're not in either my FSX or in my P3D (these are the ones that can be assigned to a key, as the OP mentioned). If you're talking about something that is on a specific panel, that's beyond the scope of what we were discussing, and certainly beyond the OP's question, as it only applies to specific aircraft which have that on the panel -- not all of them do. Or maybe it's an add-on function you have installed. And these aren't assigned to a key. In any case the initial posts were to correct an impression that there is a mixture control in jets, to complete the OP's understanding, not to talk about what options there are for fuel shutoff on panels. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il88pp Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Larry look in your list of fsx commands - keyboard shortcuts. You will see. Engine1 Fuel Valves, (open/close) etc. here's a pic. That's what I use to shut down the engine. The 2D throttle panel of the 737 does not fire that command. The 3D throttle panel of the 737 does. In the 747 both the 2D and 3D gauges fire this command. My fix from that link, changes the 737 2D fuel valve so it fires that command also. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Actually I use the "Engine 4 fuel valves (open/close)" Which they show as Ctrl + 4. I'm not big on using Ctrl + keys on the keyboard unless I must. So I use an alternate method. I have a throttle setup and under each lever on the set there is a switch which you change the state of if you push the lever down past the normal stop and then back to normal range. The switch under the Mixture lever it is button 22. One trip down past the normal lever stop and button 22 turns the valves off. The next trip there turns them on again. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok, you're right -- I found those commands. They're not exclusive to jets, though, since they work on the Baron too. And they're one engine at a time, which the mixture control isn't, unless you specifically specify and engine before using the command. So there are multiple ways to do things. And, of course, a CTRL-E overcomes for all engines at the same time -- of course there are ways to do one engine at a time, as well. See ya... Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Craig Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Altitude is the 'mixture' control for jets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrhealth Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 First off, if you have teh default fligh set with the mixture at cut off, than for every plane you load it will be the same. If you install FSX with and joysticks, throtle quadrants etx plugged in, it will give them all default FSX functions which need to be deleted especially when using FSUIPC. Isnt really that hard. Best thing to do it to plug them all in after you have installed FSX that they wont have any assignments. Just got inot the control window, select the device than scroll down and delete all teh joystick settings. Because the default assingnment in fsuipc has my throttle quadrant set with a mixture lever, i have to ensure it is on or my engines are at cut off all planes. Intel 4790k@ 4.6 1.223V Gigabyte GAZ87X-UD3H, Gigabyte GTX 680 2Gig GPU, 8 Gig Cas 11 2100 Mhz ram, Win 7 64 Bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Altitude is the 'mixture' control for jets No the Fuel Control is the mixture control for jets. It has sensors which note air pressure and combustion temperature as well as the rotational speeds of the two turbos in the engine. It's pretty much invisible as long as it works correctly, (Think auto choke on your car.) because it just does its' thing and we're happy. However RW if it's not right you're not going to be happy. I'll give you my personal RW example. Our GE T-58 turboprop engines on the CH-46 had a fuel control setting to select the fuel you're were using at any given time.. Civilian jets ran what was called JP-4 which by jet fuel standards a pretty hot burning fuel. While the Navy/Marine Corps only used JP-5. Because JP-5 was considered less of an explosion and fire hazard. And JP-5 didn't burn nearly as hot as JP-4. (It doesn't really apply equal to equal, but comparing gasoline to diesel explains what I'm talking about.) While refueling on carriers and Navy/Marine Corps bases JP-5 was the only fuel available. However while traveling cross country or refueling anywhere else JP-4 was usually the only fuel available. If you didn't change the fuel control setting to match what was mostly in the aircraft's tanks at any given time, you engines didn't work nearly as well. And it hugely affected your performance, regardless of the altitude. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Ok, you're right -- I found those commands. They're not exclusive to jets, though, since they work on the Baron too. And they're one engine at a time, which the mixture control isn't, unless you specifically specify and engine before using the command. So there are multiple ways to do things. And, of course, a CTRL-E overcomes for all engines at the same time -- of course there are ways to do one engine at a time, as well. See ya... Larry, my bad! I don't use the engine 4 fuel valves to turn my engines off. I use my "button 22" to initiate Engine/s shutdown. Whether it be one engine or however many engines your plane has, it gets them all. But if I forget to push the lever down again to reset the bit before startup, my engine/s won't fire at all. They'll spin over with the starter but won't start. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnuss Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Altitude is the 'mixture' control for jets No the Fuel Control is the mixture control for jets. I think Allen was just referring to the fact that as a jet's altitude increases it uses less fuel, by quite a lot comparing sea level to the flight levels, and it's not because the pilot moved a lever. And this is, essentially, what a pilot does with a mixture control, usually due to altitude. Lots more detail can be thrown at this, but I think in the context he had, and as a general statement, he's right. Larry N. As Skylab would say: Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I think Allen was just referring to the fact that as a jet's altitude increases it uses less fuel, by quite a lot comparing sea level to the flight levels, and it's not because the pilot moved a lever. And this is, essentially, what a pilot does with a mixture control, usually due to altitude. Lots more detail can be thrown at this, but I think in the context he had, and as a general statement, he's right. I somewhat agree, newer recip. engines do the same thing with their fuel injection systems. But I believe that is still a very misleading general statement to make. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomTweak Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 My goodness! What a kufuffle (isn't that a nifty word??? :cool: ). I just thought thought the OP was wondering about "fuel cut-off/engine shut down" and "Fuel ON/Engine enable" on the FSX default 737. The title is a little misleading, as we all know jet engines don't have an external mixture control, but given the way FSX works, the Mixture Control "knobs" in the Sim do have an effect. One shuts the fuel to all the engines off, one turns it on. Obviously, there are several other ways to accomplish the same thing, but the quick, simple, down-n-dirty answer is one Mixture Control shuts the fuel to the engines off, one permits the fuel to flow. Whether a jet, recip, car, boat, nuclear sub, it doesn't matter. In the game, at least. Yes, the real world is totally different, but this was about the Sim, wasn't it? I hope this kafuffle ( ;) ) isn't all my fault. I'd feel guilty as heck... Civilian jets ran what was called JP-4 which by jet fuel standards a pretty hot burning fuel. While the Navy/Marine Corps only used JP-5. I believe that the entire military has gone to what they call JP-8. Now they use it for vehicles, generators, jet powered aircraft (fixed or rotary wing), tanks, you name it. It uses fuel, it uses JP-8. I wonder if they added another position to your little switch, there Rupert :D I know, I know, totally irrelevant to the discussion, sorry about that. Great days and fun flights to all! Pat☺ [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again! Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il88pp Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Sorry Pat, when writing I already wished I could use a sweeter voice. Didn't find the words. I know you meant well. It's a confusing subject. Many unexpected keyboard shortcuts (default control shift F1 is not mixture cutoff), panel levers (not working, or doing something other then expected), aircraft realism settings (automixture), etc. Hard to explain, and perhaps easiest to understand by using and learning as you go. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 My goodness! What a kufuffle (isn't that a nifty word??? :cool: ). I just thought thought the OP was wondering about "fuel cut-off/engine shut down" and "Fuel ON/Engine enable" on the FSX default 737. The title is a little misleading, as we all know jet engines don't have an external mixture control, but given the way FSX works, the Mixture Control "knobs" in the Sim do have an effect. One shuts the fuel to all the engines off, one turns it on. Obviously, there are several other ways to accomplish the same thing, but the quick, simple, down-n-dirty answer is one Mixture Control shuts the fuel to the engines off, one permits the fuel to flow. Whether a jet, recip, car, boat, nuclear sub, it doesn't matter. In the game, at least. Yes, the real world is totally different, but this was about the Sim, wasn't it? I hope this kafuffle ( ;) ) isn't all my fault. I'd feel guilty as heck... I believe that the entire military has gone to what they call JP-8. Now they use it for vehicles, generators, jet powered aircraft (fixed or rotary wing), tanks, you name it. It uses fuel, it uses JP-8. I wonder if they added another position to your little switch, there Rupert :D I know, I know, totally irrelevant to the discussion, sorry about that. Great days and fun flights to all! Pat☺ Pat, Don't know what they fuel Marine/Navy planes with today. I don't fly them anymore. However Wikipedia, at least in my interpretation, seems to indicate that JP-8 is the Air Force standard as well as many or most land vehicles that used diesel. However based on their statements, it appears JP-5 is still the carrier standard. I hope someone current can let us all know for sure. As to a "kafuffle." Isn't this thread similar to what we all do and discuss every day? I consider this site and even this thread as a legitimate place for people to discuss their various opinions. To my mind, that's what we're doing. I didn't intend any insult here & haven't noticed that anyone else on this thread has either. Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomTweak Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Oh, no, guys, I wasn't the slightest bit insulted in any way. I've got really thick skin. I was just somewhat amused that this got so complicated. You want to insult me, you'll have to go a LOT farther than "No dumba$$, it's like THIS, idjit..." :D :D I wil be the very first to say I am mistaken, cause I usually am. Doesn't bother me in the least. After bootcamp, you all are really great, nice, and very intelligent folks. I take no issue with anyone about any of this at all :D When I'm wrong, please, feel free to tell me. It's the quickest way for ME to learn "stuff". And I do every day, if I'm not very careful :) I use the Mixture Cutoff (Ctrl+SHFT+F1) to shutdown whatever bird I'm flying. Usually the FSXBA F/A-18C v16.1. I've watched it, and it moves the throttles to cut-off (shut-down, fuel off, whatever), and during start-up, the opposite (CTRL+SHFT+F4) once it hits 21% and VROOM! Awaaaaay I go. And all the checklists I've ever read say the same thing. Move the Mixture level to full lean to shut the engine off. I am certain there are several other paths to the same destination. I just wanted to say what I, personally, have experienced. And read in the kneeboard's Keys button. I didn't go deeply enough into the subject, obviously. As they say, MY BAD :p Thank you to all for the kind replies, though. I do appreciate them all :D I DO like the word "Kafuffle" still though hehehe Rup, When I was working the Aerostat Site, and the Airforce took it over from Customs in what was it, 1992 or 3 I think, they transitioned us to JP-8, and we were told ALL the military were going to it. They may well have, ummm, fibbed to us a bit. It seemed a favorite passtime of theirs :p And siily me, I believed them. I didn't ever think (not unusual for me) to look at Wiki or whatever. I just figgered after all this time, ALL the services had transitioned to it, was all. There I go thinking again :eek: I have a couple of Active Duty contacts over on the FSDT forums I can ask. I'll see what I can dig up. I will let ya know... Great days to all! Hope you all enjoy these forums as much as I do. The give and take makes it "interesting", at the least :D Pat☺ [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again! Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.