MS puts kabosh on 98/se/me drivers? Forced obsolescence?

[angels355]

Read this notice from HP, if I read this right it sounds to me like MS is now denying manufacturers starting July 2007 access or permission to access specific 98/se/me files needed for manufacturers to provide drivers for their products for 98/se/me users. The 98/se/me drivers that came with the product(s) will still work, however it appears that MS does not allow manufacturers across the board to release drivers made for 98/se/me. You're thinking, well yeah for new products that seems to make sense regarding inevitible obsolescence, but what appears to be happening is DENIAL OF ACCESS to EXISTING 98/se/me drivers for products that were manufactured at the time when 98/se/me WERE supported by MS. It sounds to me that HP is only too happy to provide these drivers for their customers, who purchased HP products in good faith, trusting them to provide drivers for their products to continue functioning, however it appears that MS will not allow across the board release of 98/se/me drivers. What seems to be happening is HP HAS the drivers, but MS has turned off their right to release them.

In all fairness to MS, 98/se/me users can be extremely resourceful and continue to trudge along despite the frostbite shoulder treatment, for example digging up product drivers that were downloaded in previous years and using those, or going to websites where old drivers are archived for enthusiasts. But I find it almost humorous how hard MS seems to try to alienate their customers. When I just fly my flight simulators (today I just completed my 372nd flight around the world in Airbus A340 and 380's in FS6, 7, and 8), and just concentrate on flying and improving my skills, I get all warm and fuzzy about MS. Then I read about their current and future policies, and it just seems so unfriendly and bracing I feel dumb, duh, considering purchasing new products from MS. Real money was paid for these 98/se/me products, I have a receipt for one computer that cost $2,200 originally, and it will not run any other OS than 98/se/me, it is too weak and too low on resources. But hey, I'm a billionaire who can toss away out of fashion equipment--NOT!

What I need to work harder on is expanding into LINUX, UNIX, and OSX. All of these products are friendly, and not controlled by management determined to have everyone upgrade whether they want to or not, and to accept their new big brother policies. This is a free country, I am not obligated to pay an arm and a leg for new MS products with big brother programming that is designed to shut down at the whim of the software manufacturer. I am going to try even harder to expand into LINUX, UNIX, and OSX. MS products: phooey!

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/d...=58710&lang=en

[noell]

Be sure to let me know what you think of X-Plane for Linux.


....Noell

[angels355]

Noell,

Thanks, of course I will. Loki says that there are 3d drivers to be found somewhere. And I'm sure the OSX drivers are 3d and advanced.

I'm hoping to expand into these alternative OS's, I still have many windders computers, and have an excess supply of 98se. I had been planning to get xp pro and fsx dlx, and perhaps another xp pro for the 2nd sealed box of fs9 I already have. I'm not sure if I'll get fsx, I'm very discouraged and disappointed by MS's business practices right now; I may try using 98se or ME for my 2nd unit of FS9, I may not get further units of xp. I haven't read the scant clues about Win "Seven" (Vienna) due out in 2010, but I thought I heard some rumor that it could be pay as you go software, I'll have to read the articles more carefully. I think one of the worst experiences I've had is having had a very full featured wireless phone that cost me $120/mo for the monthly fee not including overages. That was price gouging at its' worst. I can imagine MS issuing a future OS where we'd have to pay for it every month; that would take care of the activation situation, they'd have your name and billing address and if the bill wasn't paid then they wouldn't activate you. I'm just speculating on rumors.

One of my 98se friends says he'd like to see a class action suit against MS for their business practices now that they are using hardware manufacturers to push out 98/se/me users.

Another person said that what MS was doing smacked of antitrust.

I think MS's policies are very arrogant, and when it comes to customer feedback, that is just too bad. When a customer uses these products a very great deal, they have to live with these unfriendly policies, it's like, when you've invested a very large amount of money into the hardware and software you're using how do you reverse that, or what can you do about it when MS's policies get worse or unacceptible? My strategy has been to just not buy a product if you're not satisfied with their policies. For example, there was a grocery store who had extremely high prices, unfriendly staff, and threatening security. I made up my mind I wouldn't reward their behaviour by giving them my money. So I expanded into becoming a customer at a wholesaler, and the side benefit was I saved approximately 10% on gasoline, and on groceries I saved approximately $2,000 per year.

When MS's policies and business practices are so unfriendly, I don't want to reward them by giving them my money. So I will be trying to expand into Linux, Unix, and OSX.

The X-Plane people are extremely nice, and their EULA is three simple lines. I definitely will be getting X-Plane, but as things cost money I have to go at my own pace. Before the recession I used to shop at the same sports car shops as the MS people. Granted I was working around the clock and hoping to just buy one snappy Porsche Turbo, or a low cost low mileage old Ferrari, while some of those people would walk in and write one check for a special edition Lambo Diablo, plus two other similar cars, 3 cars for as much as $450K, for example. Now I'm on a budget. So I'm especially careful with my money. MS has let me down over and over, and I don't want to invest in such products, they are just going to let me down in the future.

Fly Legacy is supposed to come out sometime, and I might check out Flightgear, I can't remember which one of you told me it was similar to FS2000. They do have huge scenery files though, satellite type stuff last time I checked it was 13 gb's. Any way, I still have two units of FS9, three units of FS8, one FS7, four or five FS6, two Fly!2K's. I was looking forward to FSX for a long long time, I just feel that MS's policies have ruined my desire to get it. It's just like the old Mac commercial of a b&w big screen of a man ranting to a b&w audience, when a Mac chick in full color runs in and breaks the screen w/ a hammer or something. That commercial was way ahead of its' time. In the old days friendly Sir Gates would explain what the products were like and the company seemed very friendly, but starting w/ activation programming, it has become more like the Mac commercial. There are actually error issues directly related to the activation programming itself in FSX, just like Murphy's Law could have predicted.

[dharris]

It is called progress

[angels355]

"It is called progress"

A few months ago MS shut off the Windows Update page for 98/se/me. MS posted a message saying thanks for your interest in downloads from MS, but these downloads are only for Microsoft Windows operating systems, click here on this link to take you to MS downloads for Apple products. Recently Cadillac dropped support for my 1988 Cadillac, for which I paid $52,000 for it from start to finish, and features a very young engine and a completely new airconditioning system with modern R134a refrigerant, not the banned R12, plus countless other features. A new Toyota or Chevy, or especially Ford feels like plastic junk by comparison. The above strategy from MS, shutting off the Windows Update page for 98/se/me, is analogous to having my favorite Cadillac dealer stopping me in the parking lot as I'm entering the dealership and saying, "Sir, this is a Cadillac dealership, your car is a Mercedes, not a Cadillac, and we refuse to service you at all!" I, and perhaps others complained, and the 98/se/me Windows Update page went up again.

Now this latest incident is analogous to this scenario: It is understandible that for example after an auto manufacturer discontinues a certain car model, like say my 1988 Cadillac, that they would get rid of the tools and stamping dies for that model after production is discontinued, however they don't have some id##t in charge at the executive level issue an order that all spare parts for that car be destroyed. They don't say, hey we've got five warehouses of spare parts for that model car, see to it that all of those parts are destroyed, because we need to FORCE Mr. 1988 Cadillac to get rid of his car and upgrade to a newer obviously better car. You think I'm going to spend $55,000 for a new Cadillac only to expect them to refuse me service in the future and destroy spare parts to make it virtually impossible to continue to use that car? Before the recession I was shopping for a 1979 to 1984 Ferrari, obviously that car would have been seriously obsolete, perhaps the manufacturer should have rendered those obsolete cars nonfunctional perhaps as only static displays. I was also shopping for a 1989 to 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo (930, 964, 993), another obviously out of date obsolete set of cars. The manufacturer should have destroyed all warehoused spare parts for them and rendered those cars nonfunctional so that people could instead buy a brand new car and supply that manufacturer with more money. But they don't do that. Why? Because that would be absolutely INSANE!! Any auto manufacturer who would do that would never get my business ever again! Auto manufacturers are not insane, they want their customers to come back again when they want to buy another car. They want to build FAITH AND TRUST in their cars and company!!!

MS in this case, has blocked access to all manufacturers to vital 98/se/me files which are needed to produce new drivers for new products. Forced obsolescence. Then at HP, MS appears to have bullied HP into not posting ANY, (old or new) of the old 98/se/me drivers that have been around for years, that have already been produced. Similar to the analogy I mentioned above where a hypothetical auto executive would order all spare parts for a discontinued car to be destroyed. Auto manufacturers don't do that because they are not INSANE! They do not want to mistreat their customers or refuse them service, because they want them to come back again and buy more new products, because they want to inspire FAITH AND TRUST in their products. When MS put the Windows Update page for 98/se/me back up again, although my confidence in MS was seriously shaken, I felt that I had enough confidence in them to possibly purchase more new products for them. When FSX DLX came out, I held in my hands a stack of FIVE units of FSX DLX, I would have gotten a $10 discount on each one. But I hesitated because of their new unfriendly draconian activation programming which has been shown to have shut down in one or two cases simply by updated a driver, and activation has on one occaision taken 27 hours; plus the news about MS's announcement last year for a new "kill switch" Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) program. When the 98/se/me Windows Update webpage was shut down, I did not want to buy any MS products at all because my confidence in MS was destroyed, they refused service to their old customers, and this will happen in the future. I studied advanced astronomy, and the way to study the future is to study the past. If you want to know how they're going to treat XP customers in the future you look to the past at what they've done to the 98/se/me customers. Do you know what the maximum ram capability is for xp, win 2000, and NT4? 4 gb's, 4 gb's, and 4 gb's, obviously NT4 is obsolete as you can so plainly see by these numbers! (source www.crucial.com faq's http://www.crucial.com/kb/answer.aspx?qid=3743 )

After the 98/se/me Windows Update web page was put back up, I started to feel more confident in MS products, and just recently I had decided that I would make ONE purchase of FSX DLX, not FIVE as I had originally planned which I would have done if they had kept the security format of FS9 or FS8, and I had decided that I would make TWO purchases of XP pro, two units of XP pro, one to run FSX DLX, and one to run my 2nd unit of FS9 which I already have in a sealed box, to be run on two separate computers. When MS shut off access to manufactures to 98/se/me files to deny all manufacturers across the board the ability to produce new 98/se/me drivers, and then if that were not enough, they appear to have bullied HP into no longer posting downloads of the old 98/se/me drivers for their products, even though these products were manufactured during the time when 98/se/me were still being supported, when that happened Microsoft LOST my business and any faith I had in their company. They went so far as to sweep aside the grandfather clause. That is most definitely FORCED OBSOLESCENCE.

Do these actions inspire FAITH AND TRUST in MS products in the present or future? No! Am I going to go out and spend in excess of $750 for 2 units of XP pro plus one unit of FSX DLX?? NO I WILL NOT! I am not going to reward bad behaviour from MS by giving them money, only to have them repeat this behaviour in the future.

I'll tell you what real progress is though, the refinement of Linux, and Apple products which are FRIENDLY to their users and customers. Apple has said in the past, "Give the people what they want!" They do not abuse and mistreat their customers then demand that they give them more money! What's next for MS marketing strategy, armed robbery?

I would like to point out, that I on the one hand use the products that I buy until the wheels fall off, and keep them in good repair. While I've spoken to many people, who by the way pay an even higher premium for these products than I do, who purchase the lastest products, then throw out the old products as soon as the new products come out. They do this without blinking an eye. Not me, I want long term value for my money, I work hard for it, and I want long term value for my money. My FAITH AND TRUST has been completely destroyed by non other than Microsoft themselves and their extremely unfriendly policies and business practices.

[loki]

"Apple has said in the past, "Give the people what they want!" They do not abuse and mistreat their customers then demand that they give them more money!"

I wouldn't go that far. With Apple products, you get what Steve Jobs thinks is good, no more, no less. If they don't have what you want, there isn't much chance of Mr. Jobs changing his mind. On the other hand, what they do have is generally at or near the top of it's class and they haven't resorted to the Windows activation c**p yet.

loki

[angels355]

Thanks loki, I appreciate your input. "c**p" is right, they make me wanna puke, they don't inspire me to send them money, their unfriendly draconian ways bring to mind the cast iron/porcelain bathtub company that thrived for forty odd years while the East German DDR government was in power, then when the E. German wall fell, that company went out of business overnight. Why don't they understand that alienating their customers is not a good thing!

Apple products are superlative, however now having a much more keen knowledge of hardware, I can see where they have some short comings, and Maximum PC magazine has complained about how they don't apply processor/heatsink goop right. However, they do have superlative products.

I've thought about this issue really a lot since FSX came out with ultra sensitive activation programming. I think Linux is a very important resource. Today I nearly bought a Linux mag w/ Ubuntu 7.4. I think I'm going to just try to download it and also Mandriva, and give them a spin when I have more hardware.

One of my 98se friends thinks that there should be a class action suit again MS for how they've treated 98/se/me customers.

Do you know what is the highest level of Direct X that NT4 will run? This topic got me thinking about NT4, it's an amazing OS. I have to look through my disks to see if I already own a copy, or check w/ a friend as he offered to give me his. I thought, maybe NT4 and Firefox might be a good combo? Darn, I wish I didn't ruin that Win 2000 pro installation disk, it would have been so great to have that. But there I go again, getting warm and fuzzy about MS products. I like their products, but MS is so unfriendly, it is bracing and a constant source of aggrevation. How does one live with it, drink heavily? I think I'll have a beer! I don't think that I'll convert entirely to Linux, but I definitely want to get going on it. Once I become Linux savvy I'll see where I go from there.

[baddadnv]

Hi Farley,

Are You focused in on Microsoft, as the 'bad guy, to much?

Example, earlier You mention discontinued support, of H.P. drivers. ...... You really think H.P. is all upset about that? ..... Is it possible H.P. has something to do with it? - Does H.P. really want to sell someone a printer that will still be in service 10-15 years down the road?

Step back a bit, and take a look more at the big picture. Most all of the new computers I build, are to replace older systems that with a little house cleaning, on My end, actually are working quite well. .... Nope, don't want the old rig running OK again, They want to upgrade to a newer system. - Your thriftiness (no being rude) is quite rare.

How loud would we all be screaming if Microsoft just announced one day ' no more upgrades, no new operating systems. MS gaming will no longer be, so make do with FSX and prior, cause there will be no FS11.

No Farley, Your and My opinion of Microsoft are worlds apart. IMO, You, bite the hand that feeds you. - Why are You so dead set against anti piracy policies such as activation? I REALLY don't think for a second, that Your trying to pirate from MS, but You focus so much of your thought, time and effort on something that doesn't even apply to you, as an honest Software user. If on my 3rd attempt of installing FSX on my gaming rig (you know I constantly am Upgrading etc.) and I have to stop and spend 5 or 6 minutes on a toll free phone call to re-activate, I'll gladly be patient, courteous and thankful to MS for their attempt at saving me money, by using activation, to stop piracy.

Onward and Upward - Always look to the future, not the past.


Randy

[loki]

"If on my 3rd attempt of installing FSX on my gaming rig (you know I constantly am Upgrading etc.) and I have to stop and spend 5 or 6 minutes on a toll free phone call to re-activate, I'll gladly be patient, courteous and thankful to MS for their attempt at saving me money, by using activation, to stop piracy."

The problem with MS's activation (and most all anti-piracy measures), is that it doesn't work to prevent any but the most casual pirates. And it often results in more problems for those just trying to do everything the legal way. Why should you have to spend 5 or 6 minutes on the phone? There are examples on this forum of people who had nothing but a nightmare trying to activate FSX. You are the one being inconvenienced, not the pirates who have found ways around the activation process entirely. Sure you haven't had any troubles yet, and neither have I, but with more software going that route, how long will this last?

I also don't expect any software company to support all of their products all the way back to the beginning. The companies don't have infinite resources, even Microsoft, and they do have to draw the line somewhere.

If HP really cared, they could have pushed MS on the issue along with all other hardware vendors, but I bet they didn't.

MS didn't get to where they are by pissing off customers, and they will change their ways if it looks like they are. They know very well where their billions in revenues have come from.

loki

[baddadnv]

Hi loki,

"The problem with MS's activation (and most all anti-piracy measures), is that it doesn't work to prevent any but the most casual pirates. And it often results in more problems for those just trying to do everything the legal way."


Sure, I understand that, and it may be that that's where allot of Farley's frustration comes from.

But, I still think that ANY software vendor, including Microsoft, that implement anti piracy, are doing just that ..... Trying to stop piracy. I don't think ANY are trying to 'piss off honest user's intentionally. - Thus I feel obligated to work with the system, not complain, no matter how futile their attempts may be.


Randy