Acrobatic/Formation Flying in FS2004 -- how to, help, hints please!

[fsmaniac]

Hello everyone --

I recently just got FS2004 for Christmas... I previously had FS98. What a difference! I stumbled across Kirk Olsson's F-16 model and thought it to be outstanding, especially when used in conjunction with the recommended (and upgraded) F-16 panel. A few friends also got the game, and we would like to try formation flying with some stunts and whatnot. The best route would be to start with Cessnas and proceed up the ranks with faster planes until it becomes pretty straightforward as to what needs to be done. You can use TeamSpeak (or be old school and use RW) to talk and coordinate the flying no problem.

Now, there are several factors, or "problems", that come to mind here.

-- The first problem arises with getting on a persons wing AND maintaining altitude. You can take off with, say, a lead plane and another at the lead's 5-o'clock position, right off his right wing and slightly behind him. Let's say you put the autopilot on, did runway heading to 1500' at 250kts. When you turn, the plane tends to dip in altitude. The autopilot seems to be the same from FS98, but (at least when playing with the F-16) it doesn't seem too helpful for these situations; the altitude drift on the turn is pretty unpleasant. How could this be stopped?

-- Second problem: you and a wingman are flying side-by-side at the same speed, with you on the left, him on the right. If you proceed to make a left hand turn in sync with each other, he will immediately start to get back in your 5-oclock position, and lose ground relative to you pretty fast. In order for him to be side-by-side with you in the turn, he obviously needs to be going somewhat faster, since he's flying a bigger arc than you are. The same happens if your formation turns right; you will lose ground relative to your wingman. How would one calculate such speeds for planes on the inside/outside of the formation? I have a rough way of doing it via proportion, i.e. - if the lead is making a turn of 'x' degrees at a speed of 'y', ending up doing some sort of 'z' nautical mile arc (or part thereof), the inside/outside plane will also turn at a bank angle of 'x' degrees, but will be going a speed of 'y +or- c' because he has a arc to fly of 'z +or- d' nautical miles. It makes sense in theory, but I haven't messed around with it yet.

-- Third problem: Somewhat of a gripe - the joystick is pretty sensitive. I've dropped the sensitivity down and the null zone up, but was wondering if it could be done anymore?

There are some more problems that exist, but these are the ones that seem to be most pressing to me... at the moment anyway! If anyone has any input/suggested freeware that would help/any comments at all, please feel free to post away here.

Thanks.
Andrew

[burnside]

The first time I tried formation flying in the UASAF, I swore it couldn't be done - but obviously, it can. I learned as time went on, but it took a lot of practice.
For starters, the lead aircraft can have his autopilot on, but not the wingman. Start with straight and level and establish some reference points on the lead aircraft. In T-38's, I tried to keep the trailing edge of the wingtip of the lead aircraft lined up with the star on the fuselage. Learn to maintain position using very small inputs, both throttle and stick. Most new pilots tend to overcontrol. Once you can maintain level flight, have the lead start a constant rate turn. The wingman, if he is on the outside of the turn, will have to slightly increase throttle and climb slightly to maintain position. Use the virtual cockpit and pan to see the the lead aircraft. The old saying was "if you have to think about it, you can't do it!" A good quality set of controls, including rudder pedals will be a big help as well as good frame rates. The lead should always announce things like gear, speed brakes, flaps. We would say "Gear - Now!" and everyone would lower the gear at the same time.

Stay with it, don't get discouraged. You will soon appreciate how good pilots in the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, and other aerobatic teams really are.

Dale

[lnuss]

A couple of things come to mind about your formation questions above. First is that you don't fly close formation wih the autopilot, although you CAN use "George" to keep fairly close to each other. Real formation flying (and doing so in FS) is a lot of work, requiring small corrections of stick and throttle almost constantly, learning to anticipate what the aircraft will do. It's also best if "lead" is relatively gentle in his maneuvers, otherwise you'll get lost quickly. In FS your visibility is much worse than in real aircraft, so it can be more difficult (in some ways) than flying formation for real.

Also, the rudder responses (especially when used with aileron) range from somewhat to a whole lot different from what you'd encounter in real life aircraft, so you lose some of the controllability you'd have in real aircraft. However, the consequences for mistakes in real life are much more severe than in the sim, so you can afford to make mistakes in the sim that would be unacceptable in real life.

I'd also practice FS formation in prop aircraft before I tried with jets, since the extra drag and quicker throttle response in prop planes makes staying in position easier.

Keep in mind, too, that internet delays sometimes cause position shifting of the other pilot's aircraft that can, at times, make it maddening to try to fly close formation. At other times the response is smooth enough to be delightful, and relatively easy.

Perhaps your first practice should be with AI aircraft, since they don't have the internet delays for you to contend with, although when they change course, altitude, etc. it can be more abrupt than you like.

As to staying in position in a turn, you don't have time for formulas, calculations, etc. You just have to judge visually, adding or removing power when needed, and moving all three controls to do whatever it takes to stay in position. Ideally, if lead turns, say a 30º bank, then the wingman will actually have to climb (or descend) slightly, in addition to banking, to stay in position, when flying in close formation. And if lead banks too rapidly, then you will be unavoidably delayed in responding, so you'll wind up over banking in order to try to catch up and get back in position. The same thing happens if lead makes any other attitde change to abruptly.

In a very loose formation (several hundred feet or more apart), you're really just keeping lead in sight and staying in relatively the same position, but it can't be done with the precision that you get when flying close (but it's much easier, also).

In any case, you need to have very precise control of your aircraft prior to trying formation flight, other than just a general following at a distance.

You don't say how close your formation attempts are, and it makes a big difference in how you fly. You actually need to have visual reference points on lead and (hopefully) on your aircraft, and just try to keep the reference points aligned, regardless of what lead does. And you must concentrate on lead, and look at nothing else -- ever, unless you are in a loose formation, say several hundred feet apart, otherwise you will lose visual cues that might help you, and you'll lose focus on your task.

[fsmaniac]

lnuss/burnside --

Thanks for the help and quick replies. It does make more sense to have the lead either fly AP/freehand and have the other ones follow freehand. Math instincts told me there was a way to calculate such speeds for bank angles and whatnot, but as was said, there's really no time to do such things -- just have to find a spot on the lead's plane and keep on it.

The idea for the flying came from the Blue Angels visit to Stewart International Airport last June. Since a few friends have FS2004, it seemed like an interesting idea to try it. The formation separation I was thinking of was something similar to their separation, but on cable it will take some time to develop a seriously tight formation such as them... internet willing, of course. My friends and I are hosting a huge LAN party over the summer, so it would be 'shown off' there on a LAN, but I wanted to play and mess around with what could be done now.

That seems to have clarified a lot of problems. One thing that comes to mind though is the throttle usage for the wingmen (not as much for the lead) - would it be easier, instead of using the throttle on the joystick, to map the throttle increase/decrease to a few buttons on the joystick? You would have to be pretty savvy/precise to have the throttle set up in position for turns and whatnot everytime. I'm sure such throttle use would become easier over time, but, at least for turning, assigning two buttons to do exactly what F2 and F3 do in the default FS2004 configuration would be a little more precise than going 'the throttle indicator should be right above this notch' for move x, 'below this one' for move y, etc.

Also, if the lead does (or does not) use the AP on takeoff, what's the best way to sync the speeds on the takeoff roll so the planes (three for now) are in formation on the roll and on the initial climbout?

Thanks again for the help. I'll post any more questions as/if I have them. I was surprised to not see a thread concerning this topic already, although I'm sure this one will be a good reference for others.

[lnuss]

The formation separation I was thinking of was something similar to their separation
That will be almost impossible to do consistently over the internet, though you might (if you are very, very good) achieve it on occasion. If you can stay within one aircraft length over the internet, you are doing rather well. A friend and I (both experienced real world pilots -- lots of teaching time, too) fly MP frequently, probably 70-80% of the time in formation. It's all either of us can do (even in David Copley's P-38s, the best behaved FS aircraft we've found) to consistently stay within a fuselage length of each other, except in those rare circumstances when there is NO internet jitter. Real world formation is easier, and you definitely work up a sweat doing that. Usually your clothes are soaked after half an hour or more of real world close formation. It's hard work!

Note that the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, etc. practice several hours a day, every day. They say they can feel the rust after a couple of days off. It's hard work!

throttle usage for the wingmen (not as much for the lead) - would it be easier, instead of using the throttle on the joystick, to map the throttle increase/decrease to a few buttons on the joystick?
It might be more precise, in terms of repeatably getting the same changes, but you'd lose a LOT in terms of speed of adjustment. You really need to practice with an analog throttle until you get the feel for it -- you'd be way behind with the buttons. You can't say "move X and move Y" will be the same twice in succession. It takes LOTS of practice, and attention to detail. It's hard work! Don't try to precalculate speeds, throttle positions, control positions, or anything else -- it's never, never the same twice in a row. You can't, I repeat, can NOT, do this by the numbers.

if the lead does (or does not) use the AP on takeoff, what's the best way to sync the speeds on the takeoff roll
The only reasonable way to sync speeds on takeoff is for lead to only use about 90%-95% power (depending on the aircraft) for takeoff, giving the wingman some slack to play with. Then the wingman has to work very hard to maintain position. Same goes for climbout.

Again, there's nothing easy about it. Start by following AI aircraft, eventually working in as close as you can, then try it on MP. It's going to take hours and hours and hours of practice. If you can't fly normally holding airspeed within 2-3 kts and altitude within 15-25 feet (manually, of course), all while looking out the window, then you need to practice until you can do that. In real world formation I'd say within one knot and 5 feet of altitude. And that's for light turbulence (on average).

FS formation is easier in slower aircraft, such as C-172/C-182, partly because things don't happen as fast, and partly because you have quicker throttle response than in many others -- on the other hand, they aren't the best handling aircraft out there (but there are few that are much good). Most FS aircraft are sloppier than their real world counterparts (or twitchier or less stable, or all three). Try David Copley's P-38s -- weak on the elevator, but otherwise very good handling.

An analog elevator trim axis also helps (not required, but it helps a LOT) in formation flying.

Finally, get lead to make ALL control inputs, throttle changes, etc. gently. Anything done abruptly will make it almost impossible for you to follow, when you are close. Oh, yes. Fly from the virtual cockpit, with a point of view (POV) hat switch under your thumb, so you can smoothly and easily change views when required (but that can also throw you off, when you are close).

[fsmaniac]

Yep, I realize that separation is extremely tight. That's probably a little too ambitious, but the aircraft length seems about right now that I run through it mentally. It would obviously be easier to perform tighter formations on a LAN where you get true line speed of the network, but I won't be able to do that for a while, so cable and college internet access works good for now.

I came into the initial posting thinking there was some proportions and probably some calculus involved in figuring out easy ways to sit and turn on a lead's tail, but I've abandoned that notion completely now.

No doubt about it being hard work; it'll take quite a bit of practice to be able to take off together and do some turns in formation. I'll try the P-38 you mentioned. Practice won't be an everyday thing; I'm in college as well as my friends, so it's not like we can just go whenever, but after a few times of getting the initial part of it, it should slooooooooooooowly start to kick in as to the look and feel of what/how needs to be done.

I'll keep the thread alive and post any problems/questions that arise as I see them first hand while flying. One thing that I did decide on is that I'll fly with each wingman (there's three of us so far, I'm going to be lead) separately at first, just so I can get them used to their slot and how it all works. After getting them both used to their spot, I can slowly phase in working with both at the same time. It would most likely help the 'initial chaos' stage.

Thanks again. Until next time.
Andrew

[ladamson]

I should also mention, unless I missed it somewhere; that when flying close formation and actually overlapping wings.......... the wingman needs to be, slightly below the lead. Should the lead aircraft's engine fail in any way, it's just like slamming on the brakes & you'll hit it before you know what happened!

I was able to get about an hour of tight formation instruction in the Marchetti SF260, flying to & from the "combat location" in which we did a series of six dogfights in these "laser" weapon airplanes.

BTW--- the Kirk Olsson's F-16 is by far, one of my favorite aircraft for both FS2002 & FS2004. It's framerate friendly, looks excellent, and is a great way to get to 20 or 30,000' msl quick when flying over the mountainous areas of the western U.S. I typically chase airliners with it.....

Ladamson