Return-To-Centre

[rustam]

Do Real plane controls, of a 777 or a Cessna for instance have "Centering Force"?

This is related to FS2004 because when I se forces in there the stick has no Centering Forces. MS Website claims that that is how real plane controls are.

http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;224555

Is that True? If so, how can you be completely sure that the plane's controls are centered? By pressing NUM5 in the simulator, but what about with the joystick or in real life?

Also, When I enable Control Surface Forces in FS2004 te joystick goes berserk when I make a steep and sharp turn/climb or a climbing turn and it becomes difficult to control because the handle (and the controls with it) goes all over the place. Is that real, if you pull back the controls sharply the controls want to go back with great force or vice versa?

The Swinging Motions described above are caused by the "Go against the position" effect. When I pull the joystick left, it swings to the right (if I just turn and then not apply any force on the handle, just hold it) because of that It swings back left, and faster and faster, is that real?

Also a minor issue, the water in chicago meigs is too blue, almost sky-blue, is that how it is supposed to be?

Thanks

Rustam

[flyinggriffin]

I can only relate to the light planes, but yes the controls do center up to where they are trimmed if you let go. This is only when the airplane is moving of course. On the ground the surfaces usually either go down because of gravity or where you last left them. The surfaces streamline back into the relative wind in flight. For example you let the elevator droop before you takeoff, you will find it centers up when you apply full power.

The faster you are going and the more you deflect a surface the more force it takes to move the yoke or stick. With aerobatic planes they use a device called a spade to get the forces down and lighten the controls. Stick your hand outside the window of the car but streamlined. Then move it like the elevator. You will feel more force against it the more you deflect your hand. This is because you are presenting more surface area to the wind.

The amount of force it takes to move a control is carefully determined by the aircraft manufacturer. For instrument flying you want controls that are not touchy and feel solid. If your doing aerobatics, the same forces on a C182 are gonna wear you out quickly under G loading.

Why your joystick does what it does, I don't have a clue. Never used forcefeedback.

[rustam]

When I roll into a bank slowly the effect is much less, and if I try to overcome the joysticks motion the effect becomes much weaker with every twist, but otherwise If I just roll left sharply and let go it goes berserk, it shakes alot, and it hits the side of the "square" in the middle hard, and makes loud bangs.

I only paid £50 for it because of a sale, so I am not to upset about not getting Precision Pro, but whoever has this joystick and does flying for real, is it worth turning FFB off?

Rustam

[Sunny9850]

Hi Rustam,

can't help with the FFB stick since I have never used one in FS or real life for that matter, but I wanted to add a little to the real life control centering question.
In my FBO's fleet of Pipers there are three that have centering controls for the aileron and rudder and one that doesn't. They are all roughly the same age so that is not where the difference comes from.
I have flown all but one of them and other than on the ground when you go through the controls check, I could not tell any real difference in force required to fly the airplanes. They rolled in and out of a turn very much alike. Oh and of course the one i didn't fly wasn't the one without the centering assist ;-). She's our newest one and is only used for IFR training and extended x-countrys.

[lnuss]

Are you sure that it's a "centering control" Sunny? Some aircraft have a bungee-style linkage between rudder and ailerons to assist with coordination (Bonanza and TriPacer, for two) , and some aircraft will have nosewheels that center in flight (which requires springs or bungees in the attachment to the rudder, i.e. most Cessna singles), but in all the 60+ different types of aircraft I've flown I've never come across a "centering control" for ailerons or rudder, or elevator, for that matter, though there is a spring on the PA-18 elevator, but not for "centering."

But the normal "centering forces" on flight controls don't actually center anything. Rather it is just the force of the airflow pushing the control back to its trimmed position.

[lnuss]

I picked up a Wingman FF a while back, and I found it a LOT more comfortable with the forces turned off and the centering spring enabled. I don't use it much, since I never really got a "real" feel with it, and it tried to fight me periodically, just going nuts, even though there were occasions when it almost felt like real feedback for a few moments.

I can't say that ALL of them are that way, since I've only had my hands on the one, but I won't buy another. Springs in more normal joysticks provide some resistance and a centering action, and my imagination supplies the rest. In all the real aircraft I've flown, no two types provide the same feel, force requirements, or harmony (or lack of) between the various controls, and one or two (Aeronca Chief, for instance) was as light as, and even more lacking in feel, than my Saitek X-36. It's more important to me to not have to hunt the keyboard for controls (the X-36 lets me do almost everything with its buttons and knobs) than to try to emulate a semblance of "real" forces that don't match an aircraft anyway. I've long since (even in real flying) gotten to the point that I just apply pressure as needed to make the aircraft do what I want, not worrying about how much travel or, in many cases, how MUCH pressure (other than to trim it off).

Some folks seem to swear by FF, but I don't like it. Do whatever seems best for you, personally, rather than what others think.

[lnuss]

I can only relate to the light planes
The DC-10 and 767 simulators at United (yes, Class D, full motion) do the same thing, Grif. Can't speak for other heavy iron, but I'd expect it's about the same, until you get into fly-by-wire, which an F-16-jock buddy assures me is more like our joysticks, except the actual control travel on the stick is much less.

[CRJ700]

Airliners do have centering mechanisms. The yoke is spring loaded to center position but that doesnt mean that it will come back exactly center. It comes back to whatever postition the ailerons are trimmed to. If you trim the ailerons for a bit of a right bank the yoke will turn a little to the right and stay there then when you bank the airplane you will feel some resistance in the control wheel if you were to let go it would return that trimmed position. You know where the control surfaces are by indicators in the cockpit. I have never flown FS with an active joy stick but it doesnt sound like yours is doing anything very realistic. I guess you should feel some resistance in your controls because that would be realistic. But not the erratic behavior your experiencing.

CRJ700

[CRJ700]

Since the controls in most airliners are hydraulic the controls surfaces are not so much effected by airflow but rather wherever the control actuators are set. This is accomplished by either moving the control wheel or trimming either way all your doing is commanding the hydraulic actuators to move. Since they are hydrulic most of the forces you feel in the yoke are artificial, placed there trough use of bungee cords and other gismos so that you will be able to "feel" what the airplane is doing.

[chasw]

The FF `slap` is directly attributable to the relationship between joystick movement and the speed of movement of the virtual yoke or stick in VC mode. If you move it too fast, it fights back.
Simply fly in VC mode, zoom out a bit so you can see the yoke then treat the VC yoke as if it were real and apply realistic speed of movement to the virtual controller. You will find that the FF stick needs only tiny movements at very slow speeds to make the yoke work realistically.
You can then adjust the sensitivity of the control response from within the sim to suit your controller and flying style, noting that the sensitivity adjustment in FS Menus does not affect the RANGE of movement, only the RATE of response.

Chas