Outer Marker dying?

[Aloha717200]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-03 AT 07:17PM (EDT)[/font][p]Hi all,

Just a question that's been bugging me for a while. Anyone notice that, compared to last year, this section of the site really seems to have slowed down....to the point where even the latest aviation news or hot topics seem to arrive for discussion awfully late after the fact? And that even huge news gets very little attention or reply.

Compared to the insanely past-paced FS2002 forum, where a topic is lucky to stay on the front page for one day due to the speed of people's replies, this forum's activity is really slow.

That can be a very good thing as well, though. For example, a really, really good topic on the FS2002 forum may not get as much replies or catch people's attention as much as it could, when things move so fast that it's off the front page in a day or two.

Here in outer marker, a topic can stay on the front page for up to a week. Even a locked topic. Giving it much more time to be seen and commented on. Or at least you'd think. but somehow it doesn't seem like a whole lot of people spend their time in this section of the site...or that there generally isn't that much interest in the latest aviation news or whatnot. I guess that's to be expected, after all this is a flight simulation website, though sometimes I wonder why this part of the site dedicated to general aviation topics and feedback..doesn't really get all that much attention.


Or maybe I'm reading it wrong. I could be completely off, and I don't mean this to sound negative...but are people choosing instead to discuss general aviation topics on other sites such as airliners.net, rather than in outer marker?

A.net charges $5 a month just to sign up for a forum membership. You'd think that would deter alot of people (especially me, I can't afford 60 bucks a year for a forum), but they have probably the highest number of active users of any aviation website I've ever seen. Problem with that is, there's also alot of jerks in that group too. (That's why I left that site 2 years ago).

Here, with our seemingly more laid back atmosphere, I don't see alot of the fighting I used to see over there and here we have moderators that are amazingly competent in making sure that hot topics don't live long enough to incite lasting bitterness amongst forum members.


I applaud them for that. I wish airliners.net had mods like you guys 2 years ago. But that's beside the point.



The point is, Outer Marker is a fantastic place to be and share info with other aviation nuts like ourselves. The problem is, it often seems like outer marker is left out of the loop on alot of things. there's been big aviation news...like the near grounding of Air Canada, and the jetblue order of EMB-190s...that didn't even make it to this forum. I found out about it only by chance of browsing through the news on Embraer's website. Not a word here about it. Had I not been on that site, I wonder how long it would have been before someone mentioned it?

So I wonder....is Outer Marker...in a way, dying? Instead of enjoying conversation and news sharing of aviation here, are people choosing to go to larger, more populous sites for that purpose, and just leaving flightsim.com for discussion related to Flight Sim only?

Sometimes, I think they are. And occasionally, I wish the traffic here would increase a little bit, while hopefully not brining any new trolls in with it, and hopefullly not destroying the "friendly" feel of this forum either. :)

What do you think? I think the mods here have done a darn good job of keeping this site well maintained and moderated for all of us to enjoy. I just wish sometimes that activity here was a little....well....a little higher I guess.


What about you?


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Brandon Williams, Aircraft developer, flightsim.com
Forum moderator: http://www.genesis-music.com

[panzerschiffe]

Yeah.

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[drobson]

A forum, (any forum), can only be as active as the members choose to make it. If you have topics, questions, etc., that are aviation related, please feel free to share. Some of the topics you mention were discussed in other areas of these forums, but probably should have been posted here.

Bottom line: Only the members can make this or any other place successful. The forum is available, and could certainly be a great resource for all.

Darrell

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[Concordefan2003]

I agree in a way but feel there maybe some reasons behind this. One thing is, most Flight Simulator users are likely to have an interest in aviation, therefore most will want to discus it and where better than on a flight sim site rather than a site that is entirely dedicated to aviation and not the sim side of things. So you have a slightly different crowd to begin with, I’ve only been here a very short time so I can't really comment on if the pace has slowed down or not.

I feel another problem is that people only want to reply to posts and not begin them. People probably won't post new news because they can't be sure if it has already been posted or not, without searching through the archives.

As I say I haven't been a member for long but have enjoyed checking the Outer Marker each day since I have.

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[Aloha717200]

That could be another issue right there. People see that the FS2002 forum has more traffic, and so they post a topic that's aviation related, but not FS related, in there. Hoping that it'll get more attention that way.


The result is that it's either pushed off the page in a day or two, or locked, or on the rare occasion, left open to discussion while still remaining on the front page.

some topics that could go here have also been posted in the Lounge. Which is an incredible forum...but...it's not the forum where general aviation discussions generally take place. All this spreading out of topics leads to decline in interest/usage of the Outer Marker forum, and therefore the slump this place is in just continues.


If people were to post more aviation related items here, instead of searching for more hits in the other forums, probably what would happen is an increase of traffic to the Outer Marker.

Then people wouldn't avoid this forum as much. And for the most part, alot of people DO post their aviation related topics here. But...gee how many Concorde threads were there spread throughout the forums? We had one here. You'd have had a ton more activity if all the people who posted their thoughts on Concorde in the FS2002 forum had instead replied to the thread in Outer Marker. But let's face it, alot of people.....with important opinions....don't even visit outer marker anymore. Or don't post here because they believe they won't get any hits or attention.

Even the BEST threads in here don't get the replies that they would if more people were to just visit this area of the site more often. It surely does feel like a good percentage of our members skip the OM entirely and head to the FS2002 forum.


I wonder what will happen when FS2004 comes out? Will everyone move to a new FS2004 forum? OR is there a chance they might decide to start hanging out in this forum again, out of curiousity, while a new 2004 forum gets on it's feet?

I don't know. But I do wish that at least on some levels this part of the forum could see something similar to the acitivy that other aviation forums get. sure, this is a different crowd...a forum dedicated to plane spotters will have a larger number of plane spotters than flightsimmers, but the underlying fact of an FS site is that nearly everyone on it is interested in aviation in one form or another. How sad it is when the forum that's dedicated to that aspect...real world aviation...barely sees any activity. And breaking news arrives weeks...months after it happens.


For a while I didn't even really notice how lonely this part of the forum can actually be sometimes, until I actually did browse through airliners.net's civil aviation forum the other day.

Don't get me wrong, I do not like Airliners.net. I do not like the way many members are treated over there. But, you have to admit, in one day of browsing you could learn more about what's going on in the industry today, and read posts by morre real-world airline pilots, than you could in several weeks at outer marker.



Clearly, I prefer outer marker. It's nicer here. But when you come from that site...and then see the outer marker, you think "Wow, what a contrast in activity. Wouldn't it be great if more people would participate here!"

And that's kinda what I'm getting at. Flightsim.com rules. It just suffers from having so little ativity in it's aviation-dedicated forum...the place that you'd think would have even more activity than each flight simulator forum, in that real world aviation is constant. The FS world changes every 2 years, if you know what I mean. :)
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Brandon Williams, Aircraft developer, flightsim.com
Forum moderator: http://www.genesis-music.com

[rtriez]

>That could be another issue right
>there. People see that the
>FS2002 forum has more traffic,
>and so they post a
>topic that's aviation related, but
>not FS related, in there.
>Hoping that it'll get more
>attention that way.
>
>
>The result is that it's either
>pushed off the page in
>a day or two, or
>locked, or on the rare
>occasion, left open to discussion
>while still remaining on the
>front page.

I agree and see that a lot...the problem is, that if we ask the member to repost elsewhere and then lock it, either ( or both ):

1.) 90 % of the time, they don't repost ( for whatever reason )

2.) We get jumped by the members for locking a thread....you know the rest of the story.

What do we do ? Do we let it go or redirect each post to it's proper forum based on topic nature ? That's a tough call for us moderators. I personally do not like to lock a legitimate post only on the basis of "being in the wrong forum". Usually I'll say something if I feel it would be better suited in a different forum, but leave it unlocked. If the conversation continues, well, so bet it...if it reappears in the proper forum, great. Would you like to see things go that way or would you like to see us crack down and lock/redirect every post that doesn't belong in a particular forum ? It's a hard call to make and usually we simply make a judgement call and leave it at that....and of course each mod is different, so what I may let go, another one may not and the opposite holds true.

Part of this "problem" also stems from the fact that about 6 months ago, we started enforcing the long standing forum rules that we'd been quite slack at for some time....ergo, less posting due to greater &l; existing &r; rule enforcement.

Regards,

Bob

[rayN5432H]

I see the strict enforcement of the rules as what struck the death knell for the Outer Marker. Popular, though 'off-topic' (and often heated, unfortunately) posts supported most of the activity in the Outer Marker.

Due to the poor behavior of a few unruly forum members, there was no choice but for the moderators to crack down and enforce the rules. If not, the place would have been out of control.

Thus, The Lounge was created as a safe haven for off-topic threads. However, now that the more aviation-oriented posts of the Outer Marker and the off-topic posts of The Lounge are spread out over two forums, the traffic through each is reduced, with probably more going to The Lounge because it is a new forum with greater freedom. Some left the scene entirely in disgust, either to other sites, or to a forum other than the OM or Lounge (such as DF or FS2002).

If The Lounge hadn't been created, and off-topic posts had been allowed back in the Outer Marker (which I think is a perfect name for a forum of general nature), the OM would still be the bustling forum it has been for the last few years.

It is unfortunate that the reckless acts of some created this situation and ruined the atmosphere for the rest of us. For the moment, the current format seems to be the only answer. If things stay quiet long enough, perhaps off-topic posts will be allowed back in the OM. However, I feel The Lounge will grow in popularity and become the next Outer Marker.

Ray - N89864
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Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise up and smite thee.

[AlaskaAV]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-03 AT 11:48PM (EDT)[/font][p]Bob

Ray has lots of good words. Having watched what has happened over the last couple of years, the OM is in better shape now then before where it concerns real or sim aviation. Some of those that became a problem for a while are now posting some very courteous posts with lots of knowledge. It is great to see their knowledge come back.

I notice that knowledgeable simmers/pilots post a subject but they are not concerned with how many hits they get. They just want to share their knowledge and invite questions if there are those that want to learn more. I am sure those know who they are. We all know the posts are read and that is all that is necessary.

Something that has not been brought up is that we have new members all the time and an occasional repeat of a thread that was well received could be repeated by those great guys/gals.

I would suggest that all real life pilots that post or read the OM are also simmers. I am sure everyone of them would be more than glad to repeat some of their past threads for new members.

I am sure when the time comes, some of the forum rules might be relaxed but we will just have to put up with it until then.

It seems strange to me that so many wanted a separate forum for off topic threads but now that Nels gave it to them, it doesn't seem all that active.

Ernie

[Aloha717200]

Well, here's my personal feeling on the "rule enforcement:"


I find it very effective, for the most part. Although in my moderator duties I never would have dreamed nor would have been able to enforce the type of control there is in these forums, one thing we all need to remember is that as the size of a forum grows, the potential for problems rises, as well.


Get 6,000 people together for many demographic areas and all parts of the world, with differing political/religious opinions and even starkly different aviation opinions, and it's only a matter of time before something explodes.

But if you have enough control of the situation to know when hotspots are forming, and stop them from getting "too hot", then alot of those wars that divide forums and their members can be avoided.


The result is something similar to what you get in a small forum, but different as well.


In a small forum with a couple hundred or more members, for the most part everyone knows each other, it's very self-moderating, easy to handle...and "safe", if you want to call it that. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part small forums are very friendly and there's usually a feeling of "extended family" of sorts. I'm on one site with 343 members. It's the most relaxing, comfortable, open forum I've ever belonged to. Great to visit when you just wanna relax and chat with friends.


When you have a large, super-controlled forum, you gain a bit of that self-moderation back....the majority of people will test the limits a little, but few will attempt to "bust the mods" if you will, and try and get away with #####. Those that do, are dealt with very quickly, and become the example of what not to do. There's nearly always a guardian online offering some protection should anything happen. Although this kind of setup doesn't usually produce the same kind of relaxed feeling in the forum, and doesn't offer the same kind of mutual understanding amongst members, it's as close as you're gonna get with 6,000 members.


And then there's the forums, like airliners.net, which are out of control. Those are the ones where you may have far, far too many moderators, or not enough to do the job at all. A forum population in excess of 10,000 members, and an administrator that would rather not have to deal with it. A.net isn't the only site that suffers that kind of thing but they're the example here. Very few hotspots are ever locked down before they can build up because often, one or many of these moderators engage in fights themselves. I know one mod on a.net....I won't mention his username...who freely and openly bashes people of..."ahem" differing reproductive orientation...and he's a moderator. Where I come from, mods are supposed to set the example for others to follow, not become part of the problem. That kind of setup only leads to the kind of atmosphere that really hurts people, and causes mass exoduses to other sites.


Flightsim.com has had it's growing pains, for sure. One of the best aspects that came out of the enforced moderation, was that a sense of security came back into this place, and fewer "hurtful" topics have found their way here, or lasted long. The problem is that people don't like control. Control is seen as a threat, even if it might be a good thing. PEople like their "rights", and want their "rights", and anytime that a new restriction is put in place, those people will take issue with it.


I did at first. I admit. Till I became a mod myself at another site and realized why sometimes in huge forums that kind of thing is necessary to restore peace. But does flightsim.com still have a way's to go to get it right? Who's to say. A happy medium exists somewhere between what the members want, what the admin and moderators want, and what the climate and the "mood" of a forum is at any given time. It's better to have more control, than less control, but that's just my ever-so-humble opinion. :)


Of course, over-control is a bad thing. But one thing I like about our moderators, is that you *VERY* often see them write in their posts describing why a thread is locked, that "if someone can convince me why this thread should be reopened, then write, but it's looking dismal" or something to that effect. AT LEAST they leave the door open just a little bit for negotiation.

We were much more laid back at the Genesis site. We also had only some 1,400 members or so. There is a difference. :)


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Brandon Williams, Aircraft developer, flightsim.com
Forum moderator: http://www.genesis-music.com

[Aloha717200]

Of course there is one issue of "control" on this site I still take issue with.

And that's the banning of the word "c rap". Oh when will it ever end. :-lol ;-)


Anyway, back on subject....



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Brandon Williams, Aircraft developer, flightsim.com
Forum moderator: http://www.genesis-music.com