Should you turn Left or Right?

Say you are flying over a body of water 40nm longs between two shores. Your heading is 360 North and you have a direct crosswind from 270 @ 20kts and you are at 5000ft MSL. 10nm miles into your flight you experience an engine failure on a single engine aircraft.

 

___________________ Shore 2

 

 

 

wind 270@20kts ---->

 

+ Aircraft

 

___________________ Shore 1

 

 

 

 

Should you turn left or right back towards the shore 1? Why?

You drew the shores as a straight line so, assuming a steady wind, there should be no difference, as far as reaching shore. Otherwise it depends on whether you have a specific landfall spot in mind, in which case you'd use wind drift to get closer to (not TO) your desired landfall.

 

So set it up in the sim and try it, then let us know what you found.

You drew the shores as a straight line so, assuming a steady wind, there should be no difference, as far as reaching shore. Otherwise it depends on whether you have a specific landfall spot in mind, in which case you'd use wind drift to get closer to (not TO) your desired landfall.

 

So set it up in the sim and try it, then let us know what you found.

 

I picked 5000MSL, but in reality lest say the altitude is just high enough to make shore 1 with best glide speed in a zero wind condition.

 

If there is a crosswind directly from the left, then 1 way must be better than the other in making to shore 1 or getting wet and landing short.

 

So I will set it up in the simulator because I really don't know the answer!

I'm thinking along the same lines as bbrz. left, into the wind, shorter turn radius. Good question, by the way, as long as someone knows the right answer!

Turning into the wind will effectively give you more airspeed, thus more lift. This might be the difference in making it back to shore or not. Turning downwind will effectively reduce your speed, exacerbating the situation. (There's a reason aircraft carriers turn into the wind for launches.)

I don't know about turning into the wind giving you increased speed at all. It's gonna slow you down. The only thing it's gonna do is give you lift.

Interesting reading...and a lot of conceptual errors I think. Inuss has it right.

Hi Bushpilot,

Ok, wind from west. Engine fails while flying north. Each shore same distance, one west, one east.

 

For airspeed there is no difference.

Let's say you can maintain just above stall speed on one engine. 70kts IAS, with 50kts stall speeed.

IAS flying in either direction will be the same.

 

but ground speed there is a big difference. GS is IAS + Wind Speed.

Wind from West, so turning West, with IAS 70, ground speed is only 50kts.

Turning East, GS will be 90 knots.

With each shore the same distance, you will reach the Eastern shore faster.

 

Two other things matter as well though.

 

First:

Never turn to the dead engine.

With left engine out, you will have to bank right to maintain the same heading. Keep the dead engine's wing "up".

It is difficult to maneuver like that.

You can make right hand turns, because if you dip the right engine a bit deeper, you can use engine power on the right to push that wing up.

If you try to lower the left wing, there is a very good chance you'll never get that wing up again.

 

Second,

Don't make fast turns. In a quick turn the change in wind direction temporarily makes you loose lift if the wind goes to tailwind. Try to keep your turns slow and steady. (Also of course because you can't bank too far. Too much and you can't get wins level again.)

 

Normally if you loos an engine at low altitude your thoughts should not be on turning. You should feather the dead engine's prop, try to maintain your course, and climb to a safe altitude. Then you can start thinking about a turn. In a turn you will often loose some altitude or speed when a plane is flying at it's limits like this.

 

---------------

On second thought, I may have misread your map and created my own situation. The answer matches with that situation, so I won't delete it all again.

I thought you meant this situation:

Wonderful examples here of the problems that arise when people have no real world experience of flying airplanes. I understand that flight in a mass of moving air can be a difficult concept to really grasp. Try thinking of your plane within the air mass as being like a fish in a tank of water; if the fish swims in circles, it moves in circles - within the tank. If you move the tank, the fish's track over the ground is completely different, but the fish still sees itself circling (unless it looks down).

Again, NO! You and your airplane are in a constant moving mass of air where the relative speed doesn't change. There's no change in IAS and TAS.

If you are flying a 360deg turn in 0kts wind or a 50kts crosswind doesn'tmake any difference for the turn.

 

It the (flawed) theory of increased lift etc would be correct you would immediately stall as soon as the 50kts headwind turns into a 50kts tailwind.

 

 

 

Wind is going to slow you down while it's coming at you. That was my assertion here. In fact, while you're up at 35 thousand and going west, due to the airstream your groundspeed slows down because you are having to move against the wind. Going east and the wind is behind you so you pick up speed. Also less of a fuel burn too.

 

So, if my engines went out I certainly wouldn't want to go towards the wind at all.

First:

Never turn to the dead engine.

With left engine out, you will have to bank right to maintain the same heading. Keep the dead engine's wing "up".

It is difficult to maneuver like that.

You can make right hand turns, because if you dip the right engine a bit deeper, you can use engine power on the right to push that wing up.

If you try to lower the left wing, there is a very good chance you'll never get that wing up again.

The original question was regarding single-engine aircraft, so presumably that engine is right in front of you, not out on a wing.

Like this one? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-117-02%2C_Aufkl%C3%A4rungsflugzeug_Blohm_-_Vo%C3%9F_BV_141.jpg

;)

....oKay....you got me....that must handle funny, though.

Bbrz is right, in this particular scenario GS is not a gamechanger. It would be though if you'd be searching for a suitable place (an open field, a road for example). You then turn away from the wind. You'll cover more ground with a bigger chance of finding a suitable emergency landing spot.

 

 

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With each shore the same distance, you will reach the Eastern shore faster.

 

That is irrelevant to the original question, since the shores were north and south, and the OP was asking which way to turn to reach the south shore. Only the wind was westerly.

 

And bbrz knows exactly what he is talking about: since the airplane is flying relative to an air mass, NOT to the ground; the groundspeed is irrelevant to the behavior of the aircraft. BECAUSE the wind and that east/west component of the groundspeed are exactly perpendicular to the desired flight path to reach shore, their effect on the north/south path are nil. It's much like a railroad train moving exactly east, and a passenger walking north can turn either left OR right to get to the south (initially his rear) wall of the train in EXACTLY the same time and distance (not counting sideways distance), even though he traveled (to an outside observer) a long ways east.

 

And that turn radius he mentions is the radius OVER the ground, but the radii are exactly the same within the air mass, thus what the aircraft actually traverses, thus the descent angle/altitude loss. The north/south component of groundspeed (which IS relevant in this question) is identical no matter which way you turn.

 

He also has it right on the multi-engine stuff (and in any case the OP asked about a SINGLE engine).

 

Wind is going to slow you down while it's coming at you. That was my assertion here.

In relation to the ground that's true, but that's irrelevant here because what affects the time/distance to get to that south shore is exactly the same with a turn either direction because the XWIND component is exactly the same in both cases. Sure you move to the east, but that doesn't matter when, as the OP depicted, the shore line is absolutely straight and is exactly aligned with the wind, and the ONLY time/distance you care about to answer the question is the north/south time and distance. Altitude loss rate, glide angle, even NORTH/SOUTH groundspeed component will be identical in both turns. In point of fact, if there were no wind at all, the left or right turns will take the same amount of (north/south) time and distance as with the specified wind, or as that with a stronger wind.

 

This whole question highlights the problem with so many simmers who place undue emphasis on groundspeed, which means absolutely nothing to the airplane in flight, and have difficulty understanding that the aircraft's relation to the air mass is what matters to the airplane.

It matters to the passengers, of course, because it affects the time enroute, and in the sense that a pilot is also a passenger he is affected in exactly the same way. And as a navigator, the pilot cares about the wind/groundspeed, but as the one who controls the aircraft, that wind means nothing to the pilot, either.

 

It just occurred to me that some folks might be thinking of these turns in the wrong way, too. The turn picked by the pilot must be exactly a 180º heading change, for maximum distance to the south. If someone was thinking that a left turn (into the wind) reduced the heading change angle and the right turn increased the heading change in the turn (in both cases resulting in a crab angle), then the turn into the wind would be better, BUT neither of those turns will maximize your chance of reaching shore, in the specified problem.

Again, ground speed has zero impact in this scenario!

Furthermore I'd consider turning into the wind as the ground speed should be as low as possible when touching down.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about GS. I'm stating wind going towards you WILL slow you down.

Speed is ALWAYS relative to something, air, ground a passing cloud, something. So what do you say it is slowing you down in relation to?

 

A headwind will slow you down in relation to the ground -- that is groundspeed. In relation to the air mass in which the aircraft is flying, you are part of the wind, therefore it has no effect on your relative speed.

 

I'm not talking about GS. I'm stating wind going towards you WILL slow you down.

 

You are, indeed, talking about ground speed.

I'm not talking about GS. I'm stating wind going towards you WILL slow you down.

 

You're talking exactly about Groundspeed. Your airspeed will not change since it is your speed relative to the airmass you move through.

 

It's a very abstract thing to grasp, but you can see it for yourself. Place yourself on a runway. Set winds to zero. Airspeed and groundspeed are 0.

Now change the wind to 40 knots. You groundspeed will still be zero, you're not moving relative to the ground. But the airmass around you is moving relative to your pitot-tube; which is why your airspeed indicator is deflecting.

Still standing still, but you do have airspeed.

 

 

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I'd just eject…but that's just me. ;)

Hahahahaha!

 

 

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I'd just eject…but that's just me. ;)

 

Not the easiest thing in the world, ejecting from a helicopter!

Just looking at your avatar, Hangar32. But hey, each to their own! :D

Pat☺

LOL - That pic was from an official USN trip to Tahiti where the French Air Force took us on a helo tour of the island. Your tax dollars (and French Tax Euros) at work!

 

I'm not a pilot…but I play one on the computer. :cool:

You're talking exactly about Groundspeed.

 

 

So wind has no factor being sent toward you in your A/C? It won't cause your A/C to burn more fuel or reduce your GS?

 

I may be crazy, but when I fly west my GS is lower and I burn more fuel. If I fly east I have a tail wind and I have a higher GS too.

 

I know about pilot tubes. I've seen the speed tape go up when I'm facing the wind on the runway without moving.

Like we said: you were talking Groundspeed. The discussion before you chipped in focussed on explaining why a windchange won't impact TAS and IAS.

 

Even for flightinstructors this is one of the hardest briefings to get across; the abstraction level of this thing can be hard to get your head around. Than add the 'knowledge' people think they have because they've been simming all their lives into the equation and you got yourself a hand full. :-)

 

In don't consider you're crazy CRJ. In fact you're obviously a quick and very practical learner, which is why you find yourself misinformed by a lot of simming. ;-)

 

In FS or X-plane windincrease indeed will give you more lift when it's a headwind. That's what you're getting, but keep in mind that that's just poorly simulated and is not going to happen in reallife.

 

In real life, since your airspeed will be unaffected when flying into a tailwind, so will your lift. What you will notice in reallife is that because of the increased Groundspeed, you will be unable to bleed altitude fast enough without being too fast at touchdown.

 

Nor will your fuelburn increase, technically, since it is measured relative to time instead of covered distance. In aviation we don't calculate by 'gas-mileage'. Offcourse you'll need more fuel, because you will have the engines on for a longer period of time. The fuel burnt per time unit will remain the same though in a headwind. But maybe now I'm just being picky. ;-)

So wind has no factor being sent toward you in your A/C? It won't cause your A/C to burn more fuel or reduce your GS?

 

I may be crazy, but when I fly west my GS is lower and I burn more fuel. If I fly east I have a tail wind and I have a higher GS too.

 

I know about pilot tubes. I've seen the speed tape go up when I'm facing the wind on the runway without moving.

 

A headwind does not increase the RATE of fuel consumption, but it means you'll be in the air longer getting to a particular destination than if you had no wind, therefore you'll burn more fuel. So a headwind does, indeed, reduce your GS, GroundSpeed. And a tailwind does, indeed, increase your GS. But neither affects your AIRspeed, whether true or indicated. But in post #22 you said, "I'm not talking about GS. I'm stating wind going towards you WILL slow you down." That's where the argument is. You ARE talking about GS. It's GS that gets slower, not airspeed.

 

Groundspeed, in and of itself, means nothing to flying, except how long it will take to get there and how much fuel you'll need. But it's AIRspeed that affects the aircraft itself, more specifically INDICATED airspeed (actually CAS, Calibrated airspeed, but I won't go into that here -- Wiki is your friend) that affects the aircraft. The Cub I mention below must have an indicated airspeed that is enough to fly.

 

Let me mention something here: If you have a really light, slow aircraft, such as a Piper Cub, it is possible to hover (in relation to the ground, which is how hovering is defined) right over the runway in one spot, IF you have a strong enough headwind. Since that Cub can slow down to about 40 mph, a 40 mph headwind will allow hovering -- I've done it in real life -- but that Cub still has to have the relative wind, that is, air flowing past the aircraft, at that 40 mph. If that wind quits instantly then the Cub would fall, until it could build up enough AIRspeed to be able to fly again. If it were too close to the ground when this happened, it would hit the ground. From a two foot altitude over the runway that wouldn't be a problem. From 1,000 feet up that wouldn't be a problem. But from 100 feet it would mean a crash.

 

However I'd normally say that flying a Cub when the surface wind is that strong is not a good idea -- on the occasions when someone actually does this kind of thing, it's generally because they were caught by an unexpected wind increase, while flying, not because they took off in that wind. Once you land in those conditions, you'll need a wing walker, perhaps two or three of them, to get the airplane to a tie down spot.

 

The scenario above will be at sea level at about 60º F. At 5,000 feet the Cub's IAS of 40 mph would need a stronger wind to hover, since it needs a higher TRUE airspeed to get that 40 IAS.

 

There are so many misconceptions among simmers (not all simmers, but a lot of them) that, while seeming to serve them well in the sim, could get them in trouble in real life, and this GS vs. airspeed thing is one of them. GS is a NAVIGATION word, not a FLYING word.

 

Oh yes, it was probably a typo, but that "pilot tube" is a pitot (pee-toe) tube, just in case someone isn't aware of it.

And there's confusion amongst real life pilots as well, I guess. It's considered highly irresponsible and extremely bad airmanship to hover any aircraft over a runway threshold only depending on the wind. Especially in a GA like a Piper Cub that's just stupid and risking your life and that of bystanders.

 

If it is true that you actually pulled that off -which I highly doubt because in a 40kt wind, even it being at a constant speed, you would never have been be able to taxi to the runway with that amount of crosswind- they should have revoked your license at the spot.

 

Not something to brag about, if it is true anyway. It gives general aviation a very bad name and doesn't help to protect our interests at all!

 

Fun to do in a simulator though.

 

Note: thnx for clarifying in the edit how you got yourself into that situation in the first place. I only read that now. We all get ourselves into unanticipated moments sometimes. Maybe a bit off-topic (but then again, a perfect example), but how did you get your Cub into a 40 kts wind system in the first place? And how did you fix it?