how to place gauge in VC

Hi All;

I was able to re-place a gauge (Gauge 12=CessnaWAlpha! VOR 1_Alpha, 175,579,151,151 ) into the 2D panel on my default DC-3. And it works !

I tried to place it in the VC by removing (Gauge 11=DC3 Radio_Compass, 123,2,143,144)

but only got a black hole.

Hope this makes sense.....and is it possible ???

Thanks for any help.

Skip D

If you remove one you see a hole.

the gauges are in the VC placed "behind" the dashboard. showing through holes in the dashboard.

to place your gauge in that hole, use for he new gauge the coordinates of the gauge you removed.

In this case the new gauge would be added as:

GaugeXX=CessnaWAlpha! VOR 1_Alpha, 123,2,143,144

notice:

GaugeXX=CessnaWAlpha!

is frome the new gauge, and,

, 123,2,143,144

is from the old gauge.

You may then need to adjust size and position a bit more, but it will at least be visible in the hole so you know what you are doing.

You can't place gauges "on top of the dash" in the VC. They will be hidden behind it.

Just a side note: When replacing a gauge in the VC with another, the new one needs to be approximately the same shape. Otherwise the edges of the hole it's showing through will cut off the outsides of the new one. Knobs, power switches, and so on, if any.

Experience can be a harsh teacher :D

And ALWAYS make a BACKUP of the file BEFORE you edit it.

Again, experience is a harsh teacher...

Good luck!

Pat☺

If you remove one you see a hole.

the gauges are in the VC placed "behind" the dashboard. showing through holes in the dashboard.

 

to place your gauge in that hole, use for he new gauge the coordinates of the gauge you removed.

 

In this case the new gauge would be added as:

GaugeXX=CessnaWAlpha! VOR 1_Alpha, 123,2,143,144

 

notice:

GaugeXX=CessnaWAlpha!

is frome the new gauge, and,

, 123,2,143,144

is from the old gauge.

 

You may then need to adjust size and position a bit more, but it will at least be visible in the hole so you know what you are doing.

 

You can't place gauges "on top of the dash" in the VC. They will be hidden behind it.

What happens if the gauge I want to put in the spot is larger/differently proportioned and really can't get any smaller (i.e. HSI instead of compass in the panel)?

I found the bitmap for the virtual panel I'm working on and made the hole bigger. Put the modded .bmp in and fired up FSX. The hole size changed, all the gauges are as they should be, but I got some psychedelic colors on what would be the panel overlay.

Am I perhaps using an editor that's not saving the file in the exact format needed.? It looks OK in a 'normal' bit-map viewing program.

Thanks, and sorry for the thread drift.

Jim

What happens if the gauge I want to put in the spot is larger/differently proportioned and really can't get any smaller (i.e. HSI instead of compass in the panel)?

No guarantee that every attempt will work. It depends on the gauges and the method used in creating the VC.

Generally speaking, you start by only changing the gauge callout in the panel.cfg, not the placement or size info.

Then you can try tweaking the placement and/or size info to see if it gets any better.

I found the bitmap for the virtual panel I'm working on and made the hole bigger. Put the modded .bmp in and fired up FSX. The hole size changed, all the gauges are as they should be, but I got some psychedelic colors on what would be the panel overlay.

 

Am I perhaps using an editor that's not saving the file in the exact format needed.? It looks OK in a 'normal' bit-map viewing program.

It could be a file format issue, however changing a bitmap is not going to change the 3D mesh of the VC.

Most newer VCs are a 3D mesh with holes cut in them.

Behind this mesh is a flat plane with a material assigned to it and the gauges get projected onto this material.

While we have some freedom in changing what gets projected on the material, we have no freedom to change the 3D mesh.

Thanks, and sorry for the thread drift.

 

Jim

Feel free to start your own post instead of poaching another. There is no charge for new threads, nor is there any limit to them. :pilot:

peace,

the Bean

For those interested in learning more about VCs and gauges, take a look at this topic- https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?256133-Default-C208B-Magnetic-Compass-Inoperative&highlight=caravan+compass

The cool stuff comes from Jim Robinson and starts in post #14

peace,

the Bean

What happens if the gauge I want to put in the spot is larger/differently proportioned and really can't get any smaller (i.e. HSI instead of compass in the panel)?

If the gauge you replace is:

gauge08=dc3!dc3_suction, 168, 98, 70, 70

then

gauge08= is the gauge number,

dc3! Is the folder or .cab the gauge is in,

dc3_suction, is the specific gauge in that folder or .cab,

168, 98, is the gauge position,

70, 70 is the gauge size.

You decide the size the new gauge will show up at, by choosing the last two numbers.

So if you replace a gauge that has size 70,70

then choose 70,70

for the new gauge, and it will show up as the same size as the old one had.

If you replace a gauge that is round (and is in a round hole)

with a square one, then the corners of the square one will be hidden behind the dashboard of the VC. The center of it will be visible.

I found the bitmap for the virtual panel I'm working on and made the hole bigger. Put the modded .bmp in and fired up FSX. The hole size changed, all the gauges are as they should be, but I got some psychedelic colors on what would be the panel overlay.

 

Am I perhaps using an editor that's not saving the file in the exact format needed.? It looks OK in a 'normal' bit-map viewing program.

I don't know what bitmap you are talking about here.

I know of only a few bitmaps that are in the panel folder. Those are the bitmaps for the background image of the 2D panel.

In the 2D panels there are no holes. It is an image that you "stick the gauges on top of".

Often with a filename such as this: "737-800_panel_background.bmp"

Editing the 3D VC is as far as I know not possibe. It is not a simple bitmap. It is a 3D model. Only the original designer has the files needed to make changes to it.

------

Weird colours can be because you saved the image as 32 bit bitmap instad of as 24 bit bitmap like it should be.

Thanks for the replies guys. Need to run to the dentist, then back for a more detailed response. I've tried to upload a panel pic to this post, but don't know if it took.

I have the gauges in he right places ok. Back in a bit...

Jim

Back to the basics boys!

There are four commonly used techniques for virtual cockpits. Beginning with the "crudest" form:

1. A completely flat rectangle that covers the entire width of the panel. Gauges may be place anywhere there is space. This method is mostly found in the earliest freeware projects, and almost never found in any payware releases since the FS9 days.

2. What I've termed the "cookie cutter" method where, as described in previous posts, gauge shaped "holes" are cut into the main panel, and small projection polygons are placed behind the main panel. Obviously gauges must precisely fit the holes!

3. The "overlay" method where gauge shaped polygons float slightly in front of the main panel. As in the "cookie cutter" method, replacement gauges must precisely fit the size and shape of the projection polygons.

4. Precisely modeled and animated 3D gauges. These cannot be changed. Period. They are permanently baked into the compiled model.

As you may have guessed by now, any of the above techniques except #1 is pretty much limited in what you can do to effect any changes at all!

I refer you gentlemen to my two detailed and illustrated white papers where this is explained fully: https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?152225-VC-Panel-Lighting-Tutorial

Interesting, the back to the basics idea. Following it, I took a step back. I took the original panel bitmap, loaded it into my graphics program (GIMP in Linux FYI) and exported it out (24-bit per the above suggestion) to a different file name....without making any changes to the bitmap at all.

I loaded it into FSX and booted it up, and got the same funky-colored panel. I conclude, of course, that whatever GIMP is dong to the file when it saves it, FSX doesn't like it. Even if (and it's a big IF based on Bill's post) FSX could use a modified file, it doesn't like the format GIMP is saving it in. Until I resolve that (step 1), step 2 (loading a modified file) doesn't have a prayer of working.

I can't share the .bmp image with you, as it belongs to Carenado, and I don't want to violate copyright. So....I have both some reading, and plan-B regarding imaging editors to do.

Thanks and I'll let you know how it evolves.

Jim

I took the original panel bitmap, loaded it into my graphics program (GIMP in Linux FYI) and exported it out (24-bit per the above suggestion) to a different file name....without making any changes to the bitmap at all.

 

I loaded it into FSX and booted it up, and got the same funky-colored panel. I conclude, of course, that whatever GIMP is dong to the file when it saves it, FSX doesn't like it. Even if (and it's a big IF based on Bill's post) FSX could use a modified file, it doesn't like the format GIMP is saving it in. Until I resolve that (step 1), step 2 (loading a modified file) doesn't have a prayer of working.

If you changed the file name, FS never saw it.

Assuming we are still talking about the VC and not the 2D panel, you cannot use 24bit images for the VC, they need to be an "extended bitmap" such as a DXT3 for example.

I think it is GIMP, might be Paint.net, one of them does not "save" 24bit images in the native Windows format. For that, I think, you have to "export" the image. I could be wrong about this, I do not use GIMP.

To recap, your image file must carry the correct name and format to work in FS.

While I understand your decision to not share a copyrighted image, you could at least tell us which Carenado you are working on in case one of us also owns it and could look at it for you.

peace,

the Bean

Yup....still talking the VC, sir. GIMP will save 16/24 or 32 bit images, but I can't verify they're Windows format. Technically, I did export the image...just used 'save' to try to eliminate confusion...oops :-)

I did change the file name to the original when I put it in the FSX file folder, and the file was approximately the same size as the original.

It's the Carenado 182RG I'm working on....thanks!

Jim

Edit- Specifically it's the VC3 Carenado.bmp file I'm modifying. It's not the original file as I've already replaced the old ARC (Cessna) radios with a 530, kfc225, etc on the main radio panel successfully.

GIMP saves as windows bitmap.

If you look at the "export file as" option when selecting .bmp fronm the list you will see "windows Bitmap image.

It should work.

I have often:

opened fsx bmp file with DxtBmp

used "send to editor",

edited with gimp,

saved:

-make sure it's 24 bit bitmap

-make sure "transparency is not saved.

Then opened original fsx file,

Then impored edited image ("import new image" function) into original fsx image.

and saved as dxt5

--

try this fr now, as a test.

I'm assuming the thing GImP saved looked fine in preview, but was weird in dxt.Bmp.

-Rename Image that gimp created.

-Open the image that GIMP saved in "Paint" (inbuilt Windows program).

-Save from Paint, under the name it had before changing.

Then try loading that file in dxtBmp.

(Paint strips away transparency. (It shows a message about this while saving).

Interesting....was not even aware of dxtBmp. The file looked file in Preview, but funky inside FSX.

I will download dxtBmp and give that procedure a try. Thanks!

Jim

what was the filename of the file you are editing?

And in what folder was it?

and did the image icon look like a normal image?

I'm surprised you could open it with GIMP.

normally DXTBmp is needed to open the file and make it possible to edit.

It almost sounds like this was a normal bitmap, not dxt5 or other.

It almost sounds like this was a normal bitmap, not dxt5 or other.

Knowing Carenado, I bet it was a 32bit image.

I got up earlier so-as to finally have some time to work this issue before life intervenes again. :-) Reading the posts since my last, a couple things jumped out at me.

Someone asked what directory the file I'm working on was located in, and...it's in the \Carenado C Skylane 182 RG II\Texture.4 directory under the standard FSX directory structure for such things. Can you see the light bulb over my head?

As it turns out, and I had forgotten in the intervening couple years, the file I'm working came with the installer of a re-paint someone did of the original Carenado a/c. Boom...and all thoughts of standardization out the window. The file does not exist in the Texture.* subs the Carenado installer built for their 4 paints of the RG.

That said, I was still curious about the file. I had downloaded dxtBmp, so I started playing. As I mentioned before, the original file was viewable in Preview. I grabbed a copy of the original file, VC3 Carenado.bmp, loaded it into Paint (eliminating the whole GIMP/Linux issue), and made the instrument hole bigger by painting black around it to match the instrument hole color (sounds stupid to do, even as I type it). I saved the file, and loaded it into dxtBmp. By trial and error, I found that by saving the file as an extended bitmap, I could load it back into FSX, and it would show the changes, without the funky colors. It did, however, at that point become non-viewable in Paint, so 'something' is different about the new file.

I also found that the corners of the square gauge I had place behind the round instrument hole were still obscured by what I will arbitrarily call the mask (which should really have been expected, as I stand back and look at it logically) when viewed inside FSX.

I am willing to consider the situation a dead-end at this point and move along. What have I learned?... 1-I don't know much about this. 2-There are a wealth of knowledgeable people on the forum. 3- I need more time to play with the stuff...it's fascinating!!

Thanks to all who contributed!

Jim

Thanks for the update.

I was just thinking back to what n4gix said a few posts ago. About the "projection polygons".

I think this means that the projection polygons are not something you can change. (Built into the model or something.)

And that would mean that even if you manage to make the hole bigger (Well done on that!!) you can not increase the size of the polygon, so you still won't be able to fill the new hole with a gauge. Only the centre of the hole, where the polygon is.

Well done though, nice to see you're having fun.:)

All these different .bmp files are still a mystery to me as well. I've not been doing this stuff long either and it's still a lot of trial and error.

Yes...I was pretty certain that n4gix was spot on. I kept going more as a learning experience. I look forward to reading the links he sent.

I have ordered a copy of X-Plane 10 to do a comparison of the 'relative' ease of changing out avionics in the two platforms (FSX/ X-P). Gonna use the tax return to do a computer upgrade...sadly needed (see below). Zinging off topic... Just realized there's no down-arrow key (not the movement keys) on my keyboard. There's 'greater than', 'less than', and an up arrow! I've forgotten all the ASCII codes out of DOS :-)

Thanks all!

Jim

For those interested in learning more about VCs and gauges, take a look at this topic- https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?256133-Default-C208B-Magnetic-Compass-Inoperative&highlight=caravan+compass

 

The cool stuff comes from Jim Robinson and starts in post #14

 

peace,

the Bean

Awesomely cool stuff, indeed! Thank you, Mr. Bean! :-)

Back to the basics boys!

 

There are four commonly used techniques for virtual cockpits. Beginning with the "crudest" form:

 

1. A completely flat rectangle that covers the entire width of the panel. Gauges may be place anywhere there is space. This method is mostly found in the earliest freeware projects, and almost never found in any payware releases since the FS9 days.

 

2. What I've termed the "cookie cutter" method where, as described in previous posts, gauge shaped "holes" are cut into the main panel, and small projection polygons are placed behind the main panel. Obviously gauges must precisely fit the holes!

 

3. The "overlay" method where gauge shaped polygons float slightly in front of the main panel. As in the "cookie cutter" method, replacement gauges must precisely fit the size and shape of the projection polygons.

 

4. Precisely modeled and animated 3D gauges. These cannot be changed. Period. They are permanently baked into the compiled model.

 

As you may have guessed by now, any of the above techniques except #1 is pretty much limited in what you can do to effect any changes at all!

 

I refer you gentlemen to my two detailed and illustrated white papers where this is explained fully: https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?152225-VC-Panel-Lighting-Tutorial

I got to the first paper and read thru it...amazing stuff! The link inside the first paper to the second paper takes me nowhere near another paper..... Would like to read it.

So, with FS Panel Studio and GMax or it's successor, I should be able to modify the polygons behind the panel?....assuming I can get myself smart enough? Next question....is that a problem under copyright law? Thanks!

Jim

So, with FS Panel Studio and GMax or it's successor, I should be able to modify the polygons behind the panel?....assuming I can get myself smart enough? Next question....is that a problem under copyright law?

For your own use, not really a problem.

You would not be able to distribute your changes without permission from the original creator.

All that said if you could actually make the changes you want to, which you cannot.

The only way to edit the 3D mesh is to have the original source files, which most designers do not make available. Once compiled into the .mdl file there is no way to edit the 3D mesh.

OK, there might be ways to extract the compiled model and make your changes. However, those methods create more work than they prevent, meaning that it would be just as easy to start from scratch and make your own VC.

As has been said before, a few times in this topic, there is no way to change the VC model.

peace,

the Bean

For your own use, not really a problem.

 

You would not be able to distribute your changes without permission from the original creator.

 

All that said if you could actually make the changes you want to, which you cannot.

 

The only way to edit the 3D mesh is to have the original source files, which most designers do not make available. Once compiled into the .mdl file there is no way to edit the 3D mesh.

 

OK, there might be ways to extract the compiled model and make your changes. However, those methods create more work than they prevent, meaning that it would be just as easy to start from scratch and make your own VC.

 

As has been said before, a few times in this topic, there is no way to change the VC model.

 

peace,

the Bean

Just trying to learn...sorry my ignorance is showing :-) So...could I in theory make my own VC and put it inside Carenado's 182RG 'model'. What software would do that? Again...just trying to learn.

Jim

.could I in theory make my own VC and put it inside Carenado's 182RG 'model'. What software would do that?

If the model is an FSX native model you can use any VC model you want.

If it is an FS9 model, or earlier, then there is no way to change it.

Open the model folder, is there separate models for the interior and the exterior?

As for programs to build a VC, you could use the free GMax, the payware 3DS Max, the payware FSDS can make VC models, I think.

Be prepared, starting from scratch with no 3D modelling experience you are looking at probably a year before you would have anything usable.

You would have to know 3D modeling, gauge coding, texture creation,....

It is not an easy thing to create a good VC, which is why many freeware airplanes come without one. In fact a good VC takes longer to make than a decent exterior model, I suspect.

peace,

the Bean

Excellent information....thank you!

Jim