VFR Simulations, Seeking consumer input for the Cessna 170B

Good-day,

To those who hadn't yet bookmarked the site, find it here.

I'm asking;

Prospective users of the C-170B for FSX and P3D, What would you most like to see in this package? A feature? A specific modification? Post your thoughts and ideas.. What will satisfy you as a customer? Now's your chance to chime in.

- Joseph

This developer is asking us spend money for an "pre-ordered" addon - that is an addon that currently doesn't exist, and may never exist. Be warned!

The intent of this post is pretty clear; I'm asking for "...thoughts and ideas..." from potential customers.

- Joseph

The intent of this post is pretty clear; I'm asking for "...thoughts and ideas..." from potential customers.

That is untrue.

The intent of your website to to get money from customers. its Product Page asks customers to Pre-order a C170 for $20 and to Pre-order a C170+Printed Manual for $40. Anyone clicking on Add to Cart and then to Proceed to Checkout buttons will be asked for their names and addresses and credit card details for a non-existent product.

Despite soliciting money, you don't seem to give an address, not even a website or email one.

I repeat - BE WARNED!

Just once I would like to see you make a positive reply to anything anyone posts here.

I should be positive about someone anonymously soliciting money from a non-existing product?

Did you make a positive reply and actually send money?

mgh,

My address is;

Joseph Thompson

71 E. Mary Dr.

Prairie, Idaho 83647

I invite you, or anyone else on these forums, for that matter, to visit for Coffee sometime. We'll visit the local airstrip, and I'll give you personal tour of our rural ranching community.

Or you could read about it, on the site.

And if you had, by accident made it through check-out, you would have received the above address, as well as my office phone number.

- Joseph

And if you had, by accident made it through check-out, you would have received the above address, as well as my office phone number.

Why should I go all the way though your check-out to find your address before you expect me to give you mine? Needless to say I diidn't

Why are you selling an non-existent product? There are no pictures of it on the site nor any meaningful description of the product. There are no Term and Conditions and VFR Simulation has no track record.

BE WARNED

Assuming you intended the "thoughts and ideas" to be posted here, I'll offer a couple of thoughts about a C-170. It'll need a reasonable amount of detail without hitting hard on the frame rate, including not only a virtual cockpit (should also be easy on the frame rate) with most things in there being clickable/operational, but also with detailed viewing from the spot view. Several color schemes should be included, and it would be good to also have a ski version, and perhaps a float version available. And modeling the original rag-wing, along with the A model with its small flaps and the B model with its barn doors would also be desirable.

Finally, its handling in the air should be such as to be easy to fly (real ones are) for most any experienced pilot, that is, after a short time with it you don't have to make special allowances for any of its characteristics, nor do you have to think about rudder use required (just use it) or other factors.

A C-170 is a sweet aircraft, in real life, and would be a nice addition to available add-ons for FSX/P3D.

Larry,

Thank-you! Excellent thoughts. +1

If possible, consider some items that, perhaps, you didn't even think possible within FSX/P3D..

A little more background;

I have established a unique pipeline for the workflow, regarding 3d -> FSX. The frame rate hit will be virtually no consequence. I'm comparing VAS, Memory, Processor, and GPU performance, across multiple hardware monitoring tools. I have rendered models at 4x complexity (400% more detailed than typical payware), and experienced little, to no performance loss. It has been a lengthy study on what causes performance issues, and I'm trying to avoid them at all costs, with the core of the development being streamlined to perform, without cutting on any detail.

With that said, the 170B will be equal to, or with more detail than the leading developers current products, and we're coming in around 50-60% of the hardware load.

Not only is everything going to be operational, but there will also be many new levels of authenticity, and immersion.

Plenty of standard views of course.

Several liveries will be included, as well as user friendly paint-kit.

I'm working with a couple 170+Floats owners. If we can simulate them accurately, we'll include the option, for sure. Ski's, however, aren't looking too good. At the moment, I have not yet developed a work-around to make ski's behave friendly enough in FSX. So as of now, they're out.

This is a B model development. Thus far I have focused on the '52, and '55. That's not to say that a Ragwing, or A model wouldn't be considered in the future, however.

The 170B project is being created by pilots, for pilots. I'm already working with owners of 170's, who are also accustomed to flying FSX, and P3D. They are my go-to guys. The product will not be released until they are 100% satisfied, and willing to endorse the FDE.

Thanks for the feedback!

- Joseph

info:

As far as I can see, this is a kickstarter project.

Well, it was actually, it has ended. It is no more.

The goal was not reached.

I think for kickstarter projects if the goal is not reached in time, the collected money goes to kickstarter, and not to the project. But I don't know all thedetails, I just found out about kickstarter yesterday.

About the kickstarter project, link:

If a kickstart goal is not funded, no money ever changes hands. What we were finding, is the simmers aren't very inclined to register for a kickstart account. Therefore, we have transitioned into a more convenient way for enthusiasts to contribute.

However, that is not the intent of this thread. Mr. mgh has acted in a rude, and quite frankly immature way, trying to somehow dis-credit the project. I'm unsure of what motive has invoked such?

Anyhow, hopefully this thread can continue toward it's original intent.

Thanks!

- Joseph

If a kickstart goal is not funded, no money ever changes hands. What we were finding, is the simmers aren't very inclined to register for a kickstart account. Therefore, we have transitioned into a more convenient way for enthusiasts to contribute.

And that is the whole point. You are still asking enthusiasts to use theirr credit cards to pay for a non-existing product.

You have no pictures of your Cessna 1790, and you don't state what its specific features are. The more you post the most you convinve that you don't have any answers.

Let me ask two specific questions.

1 When will you deliver the Cessna to anyone who actually buys a Pre-View?

2 Will you guarentee to refund money if you fail to delivery it?

My experience is that those who have to decend to personal insults have lost the argument.

...The more you post the most you convinve that you don't have any answers...

Sir,

It really is time for you to take your personal gripes up with me personally.

The answer to your two questions can be found HERE, and HERE .

Please send me a private message if you wish to discuss this further. Or give me a call.

Regards,

- Joseph

And that is the whole point. You are still asking enthusiasts to use theirr credit cards to pay for a non-existing product.

Hmmm... From his first post:

Prospective users of the C-170B for FSX and P3D, What would you most like to see in this package?

I didn't see anything about money, or any more than a pointer to a website for those interested.

Perhaps you know something we don't? Based on what I see in this thread, there's nothing he's done wrong, or even unethically, so perhaps you have additional information that we lack as reason for your hostility?

lnuss, have you clicked on the link?

It's a site that looks like it sells two products. But if you read carefully, you see there is no product. There is no guarantee the product will ever be made.

And there is a zero return policy. If the creating the plane is not succesfull, your money is gone.

Yesterday this was a kickstarter project. trying to raise money. With a goal of 3600 dollar. But which only collected 60 dollar and therefore today has failed (reached the kickstarter deadline).

It looks like this product/project is in its infancy.

And I think people should be aware of that, with that link there.

That is all mgh said too. And it's all fact.

This is not a personal attack. We don't know Joseph.

The first line in the terms and conditions says (loosely): "We are a company that sells products....."

But as far as i can see, not a product in sight.

Nothing personal.

lnuss, have you clicked on the link?

Nope -- the post provided a link, but it was asking a question. I saw nothing that said anything about money. Guess that was in the linked site. I don't see asking a question as a problem, but apparently some do.

That is all mgh said too. And it's all fact.

Quite possibly that's so, but it doesn't explain the very hostile tone of what he said, when the post, though it provided a link for those who wanted to look, just asked a question about what people would like to see in the package. The post wasn't asking for money.

Nuff said...

Thank-you Larry. I don't know you, but I must say, you are a gentleman.

Shoot me your email address via a private message, I have something for you ;)

- Joseph

Hi lnuss (and Joseph),

No to me that first question read like an add.

It starts off with ""look here"" - Clicking leads to advertising.

""Prospective Users"" - In italic. As if there is already a product.

""The C170 for FSX and P3D"" - again, as if there is a product.

It seems as if a well established company is asking for more customers. And is asking the customers to communicae what else thet would like to see.

On the site at first glance it looks as if you are buying a product. It looks like you buying will guarantee you the plane will be made. And money is changing hands.

It took me a long time to find out what this was all about. And to notice that the products were not even made yet. You need to read the fine print to see that

this is a Brand new company, And that this is their first ever project.

I like to know those things before I send someone my money. That's all.

I think that information "there is no product and there may never be -- No Money Back" needs to be

in bold at the page where you "buy"/"pre order" the product.

And it would have been nice to also inform the people here of this in the first post.

I hope the project comes to fruition, and I hope the plane ends up being a success. But In my opinion trying to sell some thing that does not (yet) exist, may never exist, is a bad idea.

Because, if the project fails, people that bought it will be mighty angry.

I'm really not trying to attack Joseph. In a weird way I'm looking out for him as well. Because you don't want to end up with 1000 customers, that each paid 60 dollars, for something that will never be.

Just imagine, what if you get sick, real life takes over, or some other unforseen thing happens, and you can't continue on the project. (I'm no layer, but it actually would look a lot like fraud at that point.)

I think he should defifnitly make this product if he can, and I whissh him well.

I just think it's best to not try to sell something that does not exist, to prevent disappointment down the road.

PS: I don't speak for mgh. And I had no communication with him/her about this thread.

Thought I had a link to a Simouthouse thread on this project. I'll try again!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?94925-VFR-Simulations-announces-full-time-development-of-C-170B

Some actual screenshots of your project (Both inside and outside) would be nice and maybe a confidence booster for your project.

Hello,

il88pp & mrzippy. Thank-you for your responses.

It is clear, via the website, that this is an on-going project. Nobody is going to purchase this, and then wonder to themselves, where is the product? These items are pronounced very clearly.

The purpose of this thread is to invoke discussion on the project development. Everywhere you look, people are requesting that different add-on's be produced. Then when a product is released, a bunch of people get upset, because it's not what they we're hoping for, or something along that nature!

All I'm doing is giving the community a chance to participate (freely, mind you) in the active development of this project. Giving members here the ability to mention ideas, and request things, that otherwise could never be done. By the time an aircraft has interior/exterior screenshots posted in public forum, I should say 90% of what's seen is there to stay. It's far too late for the potential consumer to get involved, at the level I seek.

Those that are excited enough to support the project, are getting a dang good deal with the pre-orders. But that's entirely at that persons free will.

If mgh was correct in is hasty assessment, he should say 'told you so' in a few months!

Otherwise, I think we'll have earned an apology.

- Joseph

Nothing against the idea of prordering. But...

Let's say you pre-order a TV from Sony that is yet to be developed.

-Sony will give a guaranteed timeframe. "the product will be developed within X months"

-Sony will offer the option of choosing a replacement product if the new TV is never developed.

-Or money back.

-Sony won't go bankrupt any time soon, the demand is huge.

-As Sony are an established company, with many current products, and a good reputation, so you can count on that promise.

But not in this case:

-No timeframe is given.

-vfrsim can't offer a replacement product in case the product is not developed. They have no products.

-You won't get your money back. --It is actually guaranteed you won't.

-vfrsim could be gone tomorrow.

-vfrsim is not an established company, no current products, no reputation, so you can't count on anything.

If someone sends his money today, fsxar177 could tomorrow stop the product, cash in all the money.

And that's it. 60 dollars gone and not a leg to stand on.

The more clear that is, the better.

il88pp.

It is clear, via the website, that this is an on-going project. Nobody is going to purchase this, and then wonder to themselves, where is the product? These items are pronounced very clearly.

- Joseph

If everything comes to fruition then all is well, But to be able to add to your project any suggestions as to what is needed, it would be helpful to see what you have!

A better way would have been to re-introduce yourself ( You were here a couple of years ago under another Screenname, V12Speed, or something similar) and not even link your site. Just state what you were planning and ask for suggestions.

If this is all you have, it ain't helpful!

Nevertheless, fsxar177 has been a member here for 4 years and made over 380 posts, so in my book that makes him a genuine flight simmer..:)

No question about that! Just the approach used. Could have left the link to his site for another time and just solicit suggestions.