Formation flying with aircraft with different speeds

Gang,

My mom related a story of a P-51 and an AT-6 trainer taking off together, and how amazingly faster the former climbed and left. I a wondering, since P-51s used to do escort duty at 150 MPH, is it conceivable that these two aircraft could take off, cruise, and land, all in formation?

Thanks,

Sean

Depends: Is the AT-6 capable of consistantly flying at 150KIAS? If so, the answer is "Yes". Although, as a general rule, I don't think prop driven craft were well known for formation landings, but I have been wrong in the past. On many many occaisions.

Pat

The first Blue Angel team flew prop-driven Grumman F8F Bearcats. William Kerschner, who wrote an excellent series of flight instruction books, was the first leader of the team.

Art

The takeoff and landing might be a problem, but the rest of it is no problem. But since I've never flown either of them, I can only speculate that with a long runway (for reduced power on the P-51) there might be a chance of it, with outstanding pilots and lots of practice.

I was thinking after I posted (a frequent pasttime) that the T-6 could take off first, allowing the P-51 to catch up and slow down to match speeds. I actually don't have those aircraft or I would simply fly each one to see if I could get speeds and rates of climb that match.

In regards to formation landings, back when I was in the Air Force, the F-15 pilots would fly right closed traffic, with one aircraft turning away from the formation each thirty seconds to turn 180 degrees and land. This from a formation of four.

I suspect that formation landing is a recipe for disaster.

Thanks to all who answered.

Sean

I was thinking after I posted (a frequent pasttime) that the T-6 could take off first, allowing the P-51 to catch up and slow down to match speeds. I actually don't have those aircraft or I would simply fly each one to see if I could get speeds and rates of climb that match.

Of course that's not a formation takeoff, but would be one way of getting them together for formation after getting airborne.

I suspect that formation landing is a recipe for disaster.

It's touchy, at best, with similar aircraft -- with different landing speeds it would be exactly that, a disaster.

In regards to formation landings, back when I was in the Air Force, the F-15 pilots would fly right closed traffic, with one aircraft turning away from the formation each thirty seconds to turn 180 degrees and land. This from a formation of four.

Thank you for your service sir!

The Airforce calls that an Overhead Recovery, or colloquially "The Break". In the Navy/MC the same event's separation is 18 seconds.

If I may quote the FA-18A/B/C/D NATOPS manual (available on-line):

A1-F18AC-NFM-000

 

9.1.5 Section Approaches/Landing. The aircraft is comfortable to fly in formation, even at the low

airspeeds associated with an approach and landing. The rapid power response enhances position

keeping ability. The formation strip lighting provides a ready visual reference at night and the

dual radios generally ensure that intra-flight comm is available.

During section approaches all turns are instrument turns about the leader. When a penetration is

commenced [at night or in IFR conditions] the leader retards power to 75% rpm and descends at 250 knots. If a greater descent rate is required the speedbrake may be used. Approximately 5 miles from the final approach fix or GCA

pickup the lead gives the signal for landing gear.

 

9.1.5.1 Section Landing. If a section landing is to be made, lead continues to maintain ON-SPEED

for the heavier aircraft and flies a ball pass [uses the IFOLS or "meatball"] to touchdown on the center of one side of the

runway. Wingman flies the normal parade position taking care not to be stepped up.

When “in-close” [to touch-down], wingman adds the runway to his scan and takes a small cut away from the lead to

land on the center of the opposite side of the runway while maintaining parade bearing. Use care

to ensure that drift away from the lead does not become excessive for the runway width. Remember,

flying a pure parade position still allows 4 feet of wingtip clearance.

The wingman touches down first and decelerates on his half of the runway as an individual. Do not

attempt to brake in section. If lead must cross the wingman’s nose to clear the duty [runway], the wingman

calls “clear” on comm 2 when at taxi speed and with at least 800 feet between aircraft. The lead stops

after clearing the runway and waits for the wingman to join for section taxi.

 

 

A1-F18AC-NFM-000

III-9-5

Notes added in [brackets] are mine for clarity.

From talking to a lot of MC pilots, and having worked in the Corps for 10 years, watching the F-4's and Kfirs fly whenever I could, not to mention the Angels in Phantoms initially and then Hornets over at El Centro all winter for 7 years, I know that the separation in the Break is a lot more common than formation recoveries, but both are practiced frequently to maintain proficiency. Never on a carrier, obviously. :D I mean that formation landings on a carrier are not done, not the Break, or overhead recovery. That is one of most used varieties of recovery for a carrier. Obviously. :D

Just my take on things.

Pat☺

Thank you for your service sir!

The Airforce calls that an Overhead Recovery, or colloquially "The Break". In the Navy/MC the same event's separation is 18 seconds.

 

If I may quote the FA-18A/B/C/D NATOPS manual (available on-line):

Just my take on things.

Pat☺

Thanks, Pat. That proceedure is really well written, and appears sound. It reminds me of the Army manual I read on driving with night vision googles: it gave an equation and the example said 8 M.P.H. I think I used to drive 10 M.P.H. with just the peanut headlight called "blackout drive". You have to force yourself to do it the safe way - I managed to get away with it.

Maybe the P-51 and the T-6 could have joined up in-flight. I just thought it would be more fun to fly together than to compete with each other the way it happened that day forty years ago.

Sean

If you really want to see a mismatch and some of the most amazing flying I've seen in a movie ( no not top gun ) check out "The Final Countdown", F14s dogfighting with Japanese Zeros, it's simply stunning.

Darryl

 

I suspect that formation landing is a recipe for disaster.

 

Maybe not common, but it is done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AaO6NwGEw

If you really want to see a mismatch and some of the most amazing flying I've seen in a movie ( no not top gun ) check out "The Final Countdown", F14s dogfighting with Japanese Zeros, it's simply stunning.

Darryl

A very good movie -- the book matches it closely, too, a rare case where the movie came first.

Or like this...

I loved The Final Countdown! That 'dogfight' was one of the best sequences ever shot, and without CGI!

Alan :pilot:

I loved that movie too, especially Kirk Douglas' take on things. Basically, it was a "I'm US Navy. I am sworn to protect the US from ANY enemy, regardless of where or when the attack comes!" Great attitude!

That 'dogfight' was one of the best sequences ever shot, and without CGI!

Maybe without CGI, but, as was common in so many movies from 1945 on, the SNJ (AT-6 if you prefer) was used as a stunt double for the Zero's, as I recall. Not many Zero's around, and the American public couldn't really tell the differences easily any way.

I used to have that film on VCR, and watched it an Top Gun till I wore the tapes out :D

Great Flights and Fair Skies to all!

Pat☺