ASN, bad weather effect on the aircraft.

Yesterday I was flying Majestic Dash-84 LFPO-EDTT, the weather at EDDT was bad (note that there should be no possibility of hurricanes near Berlin, a bad weather there has to have a limit as to how bad it can be).

On approach, in APR mode, the aircraft was thrown violently up and to the right as disengaging the APR mode and making it very hard to change a direction manually with a yoke. I circled three times and every time at 1200-1500 ft I was kicked upwards and to the right. It may be that the aircraft software is too at fault, don't know. It was unpleasant experience at the end of a 2-hr long flight.

On third approach I disengaged the AP and flew manually but it was barely possible to control the aircraft. At 300 ft the horror ended and I landed normally and smoothly on the centerline but this is still upsetting (passengers would not survive this...)

This Dash 8 is very sensitive on approach even in clear weather, can there be a conflict between the Dash aircraft software and ASN?

Wake turbulence or wind shear.

Provide me the zulu time of your flight and I'll load up the metar for EDDT.

 

You know the definition for a hurricane in ASN is: Tropical Storms or actual Hurricanes with greater than 60 knots sustain winds, which have been reported within 12 hours of the active date/time.

 

This is on the ground of course. Higher up, the jet stream in relatively calm weather

can be well over 100 knots.

 

I've been flying in ASN now for over a year is every kind of aircraft from sailplanes to single engine to 727 to SR-71 at all altitudes, near the ground and 85K feet. I can tell you with great certainty AS does not create hurricanes where there aren't any. However, if you are flying light aircraft, ASN will create FAR more turbulent weather than you were used to in default FSX Jeppeson. This is because ASN creates more realistic weather than default.

 

I have a friend who is a pilot instructor and he told me a story of a flight he made from Seattle to Denver in a Dash8 which was the worst flight he had ever experienced. Of the thousands of flight hours he had in light planes, we easn't sure he was going to survive the flight. So, even if not in a hurricane, it's possible for a light plane to get tossed around a lot by even moderate weather.

 

There are some things you can do:

 

If you have modifed the defaults in ASN, first thing is to restore the defaults. This puts ASN back into maximum realism mode.

 

Next, if you want to fly in turbulent weather in small planes, but do not want to pay the price, turn off the "Enhanced Turbulence" option. Next, if you still cannot take the heat, start decreasing the "cloud" and "wind" turbulence levels 10 percent at a time. Be aware doing this, you are NOT flying in real world weather, but make believe weather.

 

ASN allows you do do research on the areas you are going to fly in to determine is your flight is appropriate for the size of aircraft you want to use.

 

I'm assuming you were flying in pacific time between dinner and sleep and start loading zulu times between 3am and 8 am zulu at EDDT around see what I get. I won't be surprised to see relatively high winds and gusts. Any time you see gusts in the metar, be warned these usually translate into some pretty stormy weather in ASN.

A dash8 is not a very fun plane to fly in

On approach, in APR mode, the aircraft was thrown violently up and to the right as disengaging the APR mode and making it very hard to change a direction manually with a yoke... can there be a conflict between the Dash aircraft software and ASN?

 

I had the same problem with a different aircraft, except my aircraft was thrown violently down and to the left. It wasn't wind shear as the winds never changed in shift+Z and i turned off all turbulence in ASN settings AND fsx settings.

 

The movement was almost glitch-like when I got thrown and any flight stick inputs barely affected it. it lasted for about 3 seconds every time it happened. When it did happen and it threw me to the left, it looked as if the bank of the aircraft kept being reset multiple times, like it would be turned to a bank of around 30, then instantly reset to around 15 then it would start turning again to around 40 then almost instantly reset to 25. So everytime the bank would "reset" it would bank even farther than it did the last time. And like I said, it all happened within around 3-4 seconds.

 

Did the above sound like your experience at all alexzar14? Sorry if what I said doesn't make sense, it is really hard to explain, but it felt as if ASN was overriding my flight controls.. even though ASN only controls the weather. Is this a glitch with the program? Btw this happened with the trial version of ASN (which uses the full program, but with a trial license instead of a full license put into ASN) which expires in around 5 more days.. So if I can't find a fix for this, I'm certainly not going to buy it!

While you were reading the above, I did my research. Here are the findings:

 

EDDT the 29th of Jan 07:20Z ( 28th, 23:20 pacific)

 

EDDT 290720Z 21012KT CAVOK 01/M02 Q0990 NOSIG

 

This LOOKS relatively benign but let's look at the TAF (forecast):

 

EDDT 290500Z 2906/3006 21013G25KT 9999 SCT030 TEMPO 2910/2916 24020G30KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN012CB BECMG 2914/2916 18009KT BECMG 2922/3001 4000 -SNRA BKN010 TEMPO 2922/3006 2000 SN BKN004

 

ASN factors into the current metar report the fact that CBs and gusts are predicted to enter the area around 0500Z

and with gusts to 25 knots - 30 knots starting to appear around that time. There is also snow and rain in the area. Pretty wild weather for a small plane.

 

Because metars are often old by around 2 hours or more on average, ASN factors in this forecast into it's weather synthesizing so what you get is more current than the current metar. These CBs and gusts inform ASN the area around here is unstable and rapidly changing so ASN also creates an unstable-rapidly changing environment including turbulent cumulonimbus and clear air turbulence, gusts, microbursts, etc.

 

Around 0520Z (9:20PM pacific) the TAF looks much the same:

EDDT 282300Z 2900/2924 21013G25KT 9999 BKN009 BECMG 2900/2901 SCT025 TEMPO 2909/2916 24020G30KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN012CB BECMG 2914/2916 18009KT BECMG 2921/2924 4000 -SNRA BKN010 TEMPO 2922/2924 2000 SN BKN004

 

Notice the 24 knot, 34 knots gusts at EDBC:

 

Surface winds interpolation based on:

-EDAH 71nm NE (19013KT), EDDT 48nm SE (23012KT), EDBC 90nm SW (21024G34KT), ETNL 44nm NW (23013KT)

Surface Temperature interpolation based on:

-EDAH 71nm NE (04/01), EDDT 48nm SE (02/M01), EDBC 90nm SW (04/00), ETNL 44nm NW (02/M01)

Visibility interpolation based on:

-EDAH 71nm NE (9999), EDDT 48nm SE (9999), EDBC 90nm SW (9999), ETNL 44nm NW (9999)

Altimeter interpolation based on:

-EDAH 71nm NE (Q0998), EDDT 48nm SE (Q0991), EDBC 90nm SW (Q0997), ETNL 44nm NW (Q0986)

Precipitation based on extended grid weather data

 

As for myself with full realism turned on in ASN and I saw this forecast, I personally would not have flown into there in a small plane and the intention of ASN is to demonstrate to you a REAL pilot seeing this forecast would not have flown into there around this time in a small plane either. He has lives to protect and cannot just get up from his chair and turn the sim off.

I wouldn't have gone in there with less than a 737 and would be expecting a rough ride (depending on where I came from.)

 

When I scan nearby weather stations and airports, they too are experiencing rough weather, so your plane is likely to get bounced around coming and going. It doesn't take a hurricane to severely disrupt a small 2 engine turboprop, and a real pilot would not be barreling into raining CBs with gusts if he has an alternative.

 

There are some pretty strong rain squalls off to the East:

 

Now what you ACTUALLY got while flying in the area we don't know because you did not report the wind readings from your shift-z display. I'm thinking based on the data, the weather was a lot rougher in the areas around this airport than actually AT the location. It's likely though you got those 15-25 knot winds and gusts with CBs and put your small plane and piloting skills to the test. It's unlikely you didn't really get a hurricane (60 knots+) but it felt like one, especially if you are used to the much more mild FSX default where there are NO TAF influences and sometimes the metars are out of date by days or months.

 

-Pv-

"...The movement was almost glitch-like when I got thrown and any flight stick inputs barely affected it. it lasted for about 3 seconds every time it happened. When it did happen and it threw me to the left, it looked as if the bank of the aircraft kept being reset multiple times, like it would be turned to a bank of around 30..."

 

This is the effect ASN generates when you fly through the wake of an aircraft in front of you.

 

-Pv-

This is the effect ASN generates when you fly through the wake of an aircraft in front of you.

 

-Pv-

 

Oh really?? I didn't know ASN could implement effects like that? It makes sense though, I was doing some formation flying in an SB-3 with a KC-10 in front of me! Thanks for letting me know, i'll look into the settings and see if there is a way to turn wake turbulence off.

"i'll look into the settings and see if there is a way to turn wake turbulence off."

 

Even better, you can set a slider to the intensity you desire.

 

-Pv-

Just an idea- Flying into stock FSX thermals causes turbulence, but usually nowhere near as severe as the violence in the starter post, but it might still be worthwile checking to see if there's a conflict with ASN somewhere

In ASN, Settings/Wind options (and effects)/Wake turbulence strength...Don

Verbosity Man Strikes...

 

"checking to see if there are any thermals around causing weather"

 

The thermal display in FSX was designed to interpret the thermals the default weather engine creates. ASN does things a different way, manipulating lift vectors directly through simconnect. The thermal display in FSX knows nothing about this, but only interprets terrain features. Because of this, the thermals ASN creates are not necessarily the location, intensity or dimensions displayed in FSX.

 

ALTERNATIVELY:

There is a feature in ASN which displays in real time the effects ASN is generating.

Tools - > View Debug Window

 

This removes all guesswork. You KNOW what ASN is doing or not doing in real time.

 

At the top of the display is a text area named "Ambient Monitor"

When the aircraft flies through an area where ASN is creating lift or a downdraft, you'll see other than zero in the "VS" display. In the Turb display, you'll see the turbulence level being sent to FS. In the Log Messages below, you'll see messages like "Wake Turbulence" and "Thermal"

 

Regardless of any thermal display in FS, if you do not see "Thermal Activated" in the debugger, there isn't one and you can fly through these displays with no thermal messages in the debugger.

 

The best judge of how stable the weather in an area is, is to look at GUSTS in the "Current Conditions" screen. If you do not see gusts, weather in the area will be relatively calm (even if the wind speeds are a little high.)

 

The exceptions are near terrain elevations. ASN will create updrafts near sharp elevations on the windward side and downdrafts on the leeward side. The smaller the aircraft, the stronger the effect. On medium to large planes, there are barely noticeable (it at all) and and be quite a jolt in a glider. Another factor is the wind strength. Below around 15 knots the terrain drafts are almost nothing. Around 19 knots or more, they start becoming distinctive.

 

-Pv-

 

Tags: ASN ASNEXT TOOL DEBUGGER AMBIENT MONITOR THERMAL TURBULENCE

I lowered the wind settings and turbulence, let's see how this goes.

The goals Hifi had with all their weather products and ASN is the latest the best of these is to create realism and accuracy.

 

In the FS default weather pilots could routinely fly through the center of thunderstorms unscathed. No one can claim this is realistic. The AirAsia Flight QZ8501 crash recently is a reminder that even large planes can be like a leaf in bad weather.

 

Real pilots do not intentionally fly into bad weather to test their skills. The AirAsia plane requested an altitude change when they realized what was in front of them.

 

Although ASN gives you the ability to dumb down the simulation to match your piloting skills, from conversations I've had with the developers, it is their desire you rather make decisions about where and how you fly which are those made in the real world. Hopefully, your piloting and decision skills will increase to the point where you can return ASN to the default values and make real world decisions rather than seeing the simulation as a game.

 

This is one of the many reasons ASN provides so many powerful planning tools so you can make those decisions the same way real pilots do by gathering information about the weather along your route and routing around rough weather or choosing another location to fly until the area you had planned clears up a bit.

 

What's realistic? A single engine prop zipping through a TS unscathed, or a large airliner getting thrown thousands of feet up in seconds, then slammed back into the ocean uncontrollably?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/asia/airasia-disaster-flight-speed/

 

For these reasons (and it's a terrible thing when people have to die to prove to us the best planes are still vulnerable to weather) ASN provides a more dynamic weather environment (not just better coverage and consistency) than pilots are used to in the default weather engine. Up/down drafts, turbulence, wakes, microbursts, air pockets, ridge drafts, rotation effects, thermals are among the features ASN generates which are alien to previous simulation weather and FS pilots. Turning these things off is like saying you like the default engine better.

An alternative is to plan your flight better. The history behind Active Sky development is the majority of pilots aggressively asking for stronger weather effects, not weaker.

 

But where's the challenge in planning around poor weather?

Only in the accomplishment the real world pilot would have in a job well done and lives and equipment preserved.

If you WANT the challenge however, go for it. Fly into the bad weather with the realism on and when you get a rough time, don't complain. It's what you got for flying there and you and the plane will be tested to your limits, not just a walk in the park and bragging rights for nothing.

 

If you can't take the heat, don't stand in the kitchen.

 

-Pv-

I am not disabling the features in ASN, just toning it down.

Unfortunately time is limited and not everyone can go too serious with it, only the lucky few. To me it is still a serious "game", not (!) an ordinary game but a fancy complicated/advanced toy. I can't plan for an alternative because I want to fly to and land in specific airports (in our case it was EDDT Tegel, the new scenery I got). As time goes on and I become familiar with sceneries and basic planing/flight executing, I will step up to the next step.

In order for me to fly the way you do Pv, I have to alter my life as radically as an 180 degree turn -)))

But I won't say I'm stopping at where I am, we'll advance.

I'm not sure 180... If the route I chose is do or die, I'll come in with a plane that is built like a tank.

 

-Pv-

..The AirAsia Flight QZ8501 crash recently is a reminder that even large planes can be like a leaf in bad weather.

Real pilots do not intentionally fly into bad weather to test their skills. The AirAsia plane requested an altitude change when they realized what was in front of them..

 

Incidentally I can't understand why that pilot chose to fly into it after being denied ATC permission to avoid it. I'd have thought any pilot would overule ATC and tell them "I'm changing course to avoid a storm" whether ATC liked it or not.

"can't understand why that pilot chose to fly into it after being denied ATC permission to avoid it."

 

Perhaps he was already in it or was already unavoidable and in trouble when he called in. It's typical for many airline pilots when they are already in trouble to go it alone trying to work through complex systems trouble-shooting. In the heat of battle, there is no time to work over the radio (so they think.)

 

His attempt to mess with and reboot the Flight Augmentation Computer might have been his attempt to get around the computer preventing him from climbing at an unsafe rate OR with controls/sensors frozen, he might have been trying to stop a climb out of control by the computer thinking the plane was stalling.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/01/airasia-captain-left-seat-before-jet-lost-control-sources-say/?intcmp=latestnews

 

As the accident instigators will tell you these accidents are the result of multiple errors and sometimes by multiple people. One of those errors was in flight planning.

1) The airline scheduled the flight at a time they were not allowed to.

2) The flight plan was into the path of bad weather.

3) Other flights in the area had already planned for the bad weather and were well above it.

4) Due to the congested air space above him, the pilot was not allowed to climb.

5) The upper altitudes would not have been as congested if the plane had been flying at the right time.

 

With the modern tools available to us in FSX, there is no reason we should get caught totally off guard. that isn't to say weather could not develop over time during a long flight which was not forecast when we took off. When this happens, the precip radar display will provide details about how high the precip in the clouds are which gives us a pretty good ideas how high we have to fly to get above the turbulent air. My experience is some very stormy weather can develop rapidly in Europe mainland over short periods of time.

 

-Pv-

..Perhaps he was already in it or was already unavoidable and in trouble when he called in..

 

Yes, if the storm suddenly developed around him without warning it'd explain why he never noticed it on the weather radar in good time.

Incidentally ground controllers lost contact with the airliner at 06:18 Indonesian time, I don't know if daylight had broken by then, but here again the storm might have suddenly developed around him giving him no chance to see it and avoid it, daylight or not.

It happened again with the Magic-8 :-(

Brussels-Paris Orly, weather was nice with low clouds.

Did two passes with 5% control of the aircraft, on third pass I shut down the ASN and it improved to 60% although still bad.

 

There may be a conflict between Magic-8 and ASN, perhaps even between Dash-8's APR mode and ASN, gotta try it without the APR mode.

I wasn't able to register to their support forum which adds to a frustration.

I assume this is resolvable if people are flying this airplane with no problems.

I like it too, for as long as it flies normally.

 

 

 

I'm not sure 180... If the route I chose is do or die, I'll come in with a plane that is built like a tank.

 

-Pv-

 

 

PMDG 737 and J-4100, very solid and forgiving :-)

777 for long flights.

What is ASN?

ASN...from what I can see...I want this! especially when I start getting payware aircraft like the Quality Wings 757. How and where can I get this?

I get a little miffed with these statements about the air asia flight. What you are saying about it is all purely speculation.

Especially the statement about a pilot switching off the FAC computers. Stop making stuff up and drawing conclusions about pilot errors.

People wrote such speculations in the Avherald comments on day one. But that's all it is. Those comments are NOT part of the accident report.

Anything could have happened up there. Blaming the pilot at this point in the investigation is really a low blow. Show some respect.

"It happened again with the Magic-8 :-(

Brussels-Paris Orly, weather was nice with low clouds.

Did two passes with 5% control of the aircraft, on third pass I shut down the ASN and it improved to 60% although still bad.

 

There may be a conflict between Magic-8 and ASN"

 

What does this mean "5% control of the aircraft"?

 

Whenever this is any concern about how well a plane flies in turbulent conditions,

a valid test is to place ASN in HISTORICAL mode and fly one of FSX's default aircraft a the exact time and location as the troubled flight. The Beech King Air is ideal for this test. It's a pretty rugged aircraft with power and control surface headroom.

 

As you have considered, not all aircraft are created with the same skill regardless of whether freeware or payware.

 

Also consider most aircraft developers did not have ASN to test with and relied mostly on FSX's default weather behavior which is a LOT more primitive than what ASN provides. There is a risk and false expectation associated with ALL add-on aircraft behaving in ASN as they did in FSX default.

 

The ASN developer philosophy has been to UP the RISK associated with flying so FSX pilots are no longer considering themselves invulnerable to weather conditions.

This is part of the "realism" associated with purchasing an add-on weather generator, but realize not all models are "compatible" with ASN (as opposed to the other way around.) Consider as proof of this you can fly all the default FSX models in ASN and get expected results. You can also fly most of the currently developed and supported payware in ASN and get expected results. This points to particular models as being less compatible due to lack of attention OR the possibility that in the real world, these planes would NOT be flown in these conditions by rational pilots who have as their goals reaching their destination without injury, damage or death.

 

-Pv-

"What is ASN?"

Active Sky Next

https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?272497-Active-Sky-Next-Discussions

 

-Pv-

Pilot error is the number one cause of all aircraft accidents by a factor of two above all others.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

 

Even when the pilot error is not the #1 cause, because most accidents have multiple causes, pilot error still contributes.

 

I have a LOT of respect for the pilot who brings me home safe. I have none for the one that porks it.

 

-Pv-