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Amphibian wake and spray effects and speed.


jandjfrench

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Hi,

Whenever I do a water landing it seems that the time it takes to come to a complete stop is far too long. This impression is further enhanced by the the amount of wake and spray that's produced by the slightest forward movement.

 

[EFFECTS]

wake=fx_wake

water=fx_spray

 

This is typical. Anyone else see this as a problem? I'd like to create more drag to stop faster, produce a wake more in accordance with the speed, and especially reduce the spray. I almost always fly from the VC and the spray effect that's visible seems way exaggerated. Any suggestions.

 

Jim F.

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I'm a float flyer and have done a lot of testing to find the perfect "feel".

 

1.) Spray and Wake effects: I don't have a problem with the wake effect, but the spray effect is very un-realistic and gets a 10-15 FPS drop when it happens, so I decided to remove it. In your aircraft CFG change wake=fx_spray to wake=fx_dummy. All gone!

 

2.) Water friction: Actually in a default FSX setup water feels more like oil. It has waaay too much friction hence a take-off run takes twice as much distance as in RW, and get a plane moving on water takes almost full throttle which is ridiculous. Float planes reach a 5KTS taxi speed with engine on idle. I know that you're kind of saying the opposite but have a look at some Youtube videos and you'll see how much they drift even after closing the throttle. Anyways, the best solution to set the water friction to your liking is using AccuFeel 2.0. It has a slider for that, and it works like a charm. One thing I realized is that you have to restart FSX once you set it.

I found that 9 is the most realistic setting (for me) with fairly small waves and medium wave speed.

 

Further to that, always use full flaps on your landings and once you're pass the stall speed pull the yoke all the way back. That helps with slowing down too - I found.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Dan

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Jim,

I can provide you with tweaks to cfg and air file to allow you to stop when you want to stop. I use spoiler drag and/or reverse thrust. So even piston amphibs profit from tweak.

 

For the spray I use effect that come with other amphibs. AC by Hama and Chicilo have modified spray effect. Riva spray comes to mind. Takes a little research.

 

But if you PM me I will provide you with tweak and files which I am sure you will like. I am always working on finding better effects. Maybe I should learn 'effects' and make my own. I was surprised by the variety of effects there is out there.

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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You might want to look into npd_v2.zip or Nick's Prop Dust V2, featuring Nick's all Wet.

 

They are a little complicated to install BUT are the ingle most realistic set of effects I've ever seen. There is everything from a Piper Cub landing on a dirt runway in the middle of nowhere to a 777 landing on a main airport's runway prefectly, a little hard, whatever. Nick's All Wet has effect that make a float plane's taxi absolutely amazing, and landings and take-offs as perfect as I've see.

They even include helicopter effects, float and ground, whether dirt, concrete, water, whatever. Watching an Apache sail along 10' off the water down a rive with the spray roostertailing behind it is awesome. Works as well for an F-14 too :)

I think it works either FSX or FS9, but I'm often wrong, and will be again too :) Anyway, take a look, I'm pretty sure they're available here and Avsim also.

Pat☺

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Had a thought...then there was the smell of something burning, and sparks, and then a big fire, and then the lights went out! I guess I better not do that again!

Sgt, USMC, 10 years proud service, Inactive reserve now :D

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Hi all,

Just taking a moment to express my appreciation for the replies. Been watching the Series and intend to check into everything mentioned.

I've been addressing problems with aircraft that I like and had a problem with sparks on takeoff of the Republic Seabee. Found an inappropriately located point.3 that contacted the runway when the tail wheel lifted. Corrected this and the had to add a point.13 to fix the float aspects. Here's the corrected:

 

Contact.JPG

 

After spending the time with it the spray and wake started bothering me.

Jim F.

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Another trick to slow down and hopefully stop after a water landing is to cut your engines dead (ie ignition off) when you touch down, as I've noticed that some prop planes engines still produce a small bit of thrust even when throttled right back and just ticking over.

Another trick of course is to land into a strong headwind.

PS- and some planes seem to slow down quicker on water if you hold the brakes on, or maybe I'm just imagining it..

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Hi,

Just a little update here. It seemed that the easiest thing to do would be to look into alternate spray effects. I googled "Nick's Prop Dust FSX" as the effects were created for FS9 and wanted to see if there were reported conflicts. Could find very little. Very unusual. I kept getting results where Nick's Prop Dust was mentioned in one section of page and FSX in another. So I downloaded but prior to installing the effects I checked for possible conflicts with any existing ones. I looked at a likely water spray effect with notepad and the bmp it referenced had the same name as an existing one but a new bmp was included in the downloaded texture folder. When I examined the bmps in DXTBmp they looked the same but the encoding was different.

At least the Giants won the Series.

Jim F.

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Hi,

I recommended a program today that graphically displays an aircraft's contact points within FSX but I can't recall where I got it from. In case anyone is interested I've uploaded it to BOX. Here's the link:

https://app.box.com/s/evhm0u8gu7no4lumioor

The zip only contains an exe and no instructions but none are really needed. You just run FSX, start a flight with the aircraft you're interested in, start visualizer, select what points or other locations you want displayed, connect, and you see a bunch of red lines along with the aircraft. You then have to figure out where 3 lines intersect and that's a point.

I see why they didn't include instructions; it's easier to just try it. I may just take a picture and post it later.

Jim F.

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The cnt pts don't need much work as they work good. Both models from PAD are ok. What you are after (to 'fix') is the spray effects. Right? Right.

 

I have my effects (fx_spray_riva_x.fx) tied to (smoke) and activated by the 'I' key and it works much better than the default spray. Just don't forget to turn them off just before you lift off.

 

[sMOKESYSTEM]

// (Vert, Lon, Lat ) (smoke is lower, shorter & wider)

smoke.0= 8.890, -1.500, -5.800, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.1= 4.890, 1.500, -5.800, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.2= 4.890, -1.000, -5.800, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.3= 8.890, 1.000, -5.800, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.4=11.990, 0.000, -5.600, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.5= 1.250, -13.000, -5.820, fx_spray_riva_v

smoke.6= 1.250, 13.000, -5.820, fx_spray_riva_v

 

And for 'water brakes' for stopping on water, you can 'allow' reverse, even if it's a piston engined ac. You might not GO in reverse, but it DOES act like 'brakes'. Add these lines:

 

[GeneralEngineData]

min_throttle_limit= -0.390

 

[propeller]

prop_reverse_available= 1

minimum_on_ground_beta= 1.000

minimum_reverse_beta= -14.000

 

If it don't work, then it's because the air file entry in (section 313) 'Reverse Thrust= -50' is not there. And (section 330) 'Propeller Type' should be '2' (auto adjust) and not '1' (Fixed) or '3' (Manual Adust).

 

The 'other' way to slow down fast on water is to go into the air file's (section 1101) 'Flight Dynamics' and make 'Spoiler Drag= -1' (or '-2' if heavy or powerful ac) and then use the '/' key (or map a joystick button) to extend/retract. That's it. Happy water braking.

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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I re-did the contact points for the PAD Superbee. The cnt pts are identical on the Seabee (which is for FSX Sp2 / Accell only) so these should also work for the Seabee too. Try them.

 

[contact_points]

//Wheels

point.0= 1, 7.00, -4.40, -7.39, 15740, 0, 1.690, 66.00, 0.300, 2.5, 0.860, 5.0, 5.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0

point.1= 1, 7.00, 4.40, -7.39, 15740, 0, 1.690, 66.00, 0.300, 2.5, 0.860, 5.0, 5.0, 2, 0.0, 0.0

point.2= 1, -7.99, -0.50, -5.80, 15740, 1, 1.690, 0.00, 0.300, 2.5, 0.860, 5.0, 5.0, 3, 0.0, 0.0

point.3= 1, -7.99, 0.50, -5.80, 15740, 2, 1.690, 0.00, 0.300, 2.5, 0.860, 5.0, 5.0, 5, 0.0, 0.0

//Floats

point.4= 4, 8.50, -4.20, -4.80, 99500, 0, 0.512, 0.00, 0.440, 3.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

point.5= 4, 8.50, 4.20, -4.80, 99500, 0, 0.512, 0.00, 0.440, 3.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

point.6= 4, -7.50, -0.26, -5.39, 99500, 0, 0.512, 48.00, 0.440, 3.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

point.7= 4, -7.50, 0.26, -5.39, 99500, 0, 0.512, 48.00, 0.440, 3.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

//Pontoons

point.8= 4, -0.37, -13.00, -4.720, 11540, 0, 0.512, 0.00, 0.300, 4.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

point.9= 4, -0.37, 13.00, -4.720, 11540, 0, 0.512, 0.00, 0.300, 4.5, 1.000, 0.0, 0.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

//Water Rudder

//point.10=5, -15.50, 0.00, -5.30, 11100, 0, 0.111, 12.00, 0.400, 4.5, 1.000, 1.0, 1.0, 1, 0.0, 0.0

max_number_of_points = 21

static_pitch=0.000

static_cg_height= 7.200 //6.000

gear_system_type=0 //0=Electric, 1=Hydraulic

 

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Hi,

Here's a picture with Visualizer running with just the wheel points selected.

 

2014-10-30_19-49-5-521.jpg

 

The arrows I've added to the picture point to the intersections of long. lat. and vert. lines. In FSX when the view is rotated it's a lot clearer as to where the points are in 3D space.

 

And here's Visualizer. "Draw scales' shows a series of lines a foot apart which makes it easy to determine how far a point has to be moved to match the visual model. The longitudinal and latitudinal lines are swapped but it's immediately obvious and doesn't present any real problem.

Visualizer.JPG

Jim F.

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Working on ct pts and then adding floats is not easy especially when it's a tail-dragger amphib. The gear pts will be ok, but the floats have to be placed using the BODY of the ac and not the gear. That makes this type harder to work on.

 

Did you try the cnt pts I posted? I did change the gear point position so as to make it easier to turn. The floats were placed way forward of main wheels, which is right, as you are dealing with the body of the ac so you can ignore the gear positions.

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Hey Chuck,

I'm satisfied with the points I have now. They work just fine; no problems on the ground or water. If I ever get around to it I may tweak that point.13 I added to adjust the float angle and depth. The angle corresponds to painted lines on the fuselage but the rudder pops out of the water with the waves. Works just fine though.

I did look at the points you previously posted and I think that they're for something other than the SeaBee. There were 4 gear points, wheels having a diameter of over 3 feet, no scrape points, and it would take an impact speed of over a thousand mph to detect damage to a float. I have no idea what they're for. Maybe something Iron Man and Batman got together on?

When I started this I just wanted to eliminate the sparks that I saw if the SeaBee tail raised too high before takeoff. I've never bothered with the contact points much before but it's been fun. And once more I'm greatly impressed with the work that was done over the years by MS to make a great program.

Jim F.

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To gojo and Phantom,

Sorry for not responding to your posts sooner.

As far as the water friction it seems as though there should be quite a bit of resistance at slow speeds when much of the aircraft is in the water but then a dramatic decrease in resistance once the aircraft got up on step, or began hydroplaning. I don't know if it's possible to emulate this behavior in FSX.

As far as Nick's effects I still haven't tried them but they look very interesting. I'm just concerned about the texture encoding. And Phantom, when you described the effects was that in FS9 or FSX? If FSX you must have addressed the problem or simply tried it and had no ill effects.

Jim F.

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The cnt pts for the SuperBee and the Seabee are identical. The only 'problem' I saw is the GEAR cnt pts (the values as they came with original download) are not right. The floats are ok. And if you don't want sparks, then just add '.boo' (ie: '..sparks.boo') and no more sparks.

 

So what happens is that you will nose over when you punch it when taking off. And the only way to counteract this is to move the FRONT GEAR about 1.5 to 2.5 ft forward of the actual gear position. You may also move the position of the engine FORWARD and UPWARDS to counteract nose over. I did not try that yet. Will check back with mods. (I have been working on the Cirrus SF50 Vision for the last 3 days, so been distracted-I finished that now so will 'work' the Superbee and the Seabee next. News at 11.

Chuck B

Napamule

i7 2600K @ 3.4 Ghz (Turbo-Boost to 3.877 Ghz), Asus P8H67 Pro, Super Talent 8 Gb DDR3/1333 Dual Channel, XFX Radeon R7-360B 2Gb DDR5, Corsair 650 W PSU, Dell 23 in (2048x1152), Windows7 Pro 64 bit, MS Sidewinder Precision 2 Joy, Logitech K-360 wireless KB & Mouse, Targus PAUK10U USB Keypad for Throttle (F1 to F4)/Spoiler/Tailhook/Wing Fold/Pitch Trim/Parking Brake/Snap to 2D Panel/View Change. Installed on 250 Gb (D:). FS9 and FSX Acceleration (locked at 30 FPS).
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Hey Chuck,

I no longer have a problem with the SeaBee. The problem was with the float point that was so far forward it contacted the runway when the tail wheel lifted. In fact, I just finished a test run in which I selected spot view and checked how far I had to nose over to see sparks. It looked pretty damn close to where the fuselage contacted the runway.

Speaking of float points. Don't forget your umbrella if you go out.

Jim F.

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