Why do you use SID/STARS when there's ATC?

[Perixon]

Hey guys,

having read the subject line, I guess half of you have already fallen off your chairs laughing yourselves silly by now, so I'll turn to the rest of you (still fighting to look serious :) ).

Flying IFR in Flight Simulator 2002, you're guided by the controllers all the way from start to landing. ATC is fairly strict and does not allow any longer detours ("Flight plan is cancelled..."). Now, as I understand it in real life, it doesn't work exactly like this. Real world pilots use airport charts ("SID/STARS") when departing or approaching an airport.

If you are to fly by SID/STARS, how do you deal with ATC? Does flying by charts mean that you either have to ignore ATC instructions (and risk the entire flight plan), or does it mean that you simply can't fly IFR (and have to stick with VFR)?

Finally, my guess is that the reason for approach/departure charts being there in the first place is to take some workload off the controllers - am I right? In real life, does ATC behave like it does in FS2002, taking you thru the entire approach?

Kind regards,
Peter Eriksson

--
Greetings från Umeå, Sweden - The European Union

[jollyjohnny]

2002 ATC, does not take into consideration SID / STARS Peter. Consider them in the real world as entry exit lanes to guide you into the highways of the skys.

My personal preference is to use FS Nav or Super Flight Planner (freeware), and print the flight plan, the latter has an extensive SID / STAR database and both allow flight plan exports to FS2002. The other choice is for you to accuire SID/ STAR plates, aeronautical charts and do your own planning using high and low level map sets. This is much more rewarding and in realism terms is what is used.
In spite of plugging an FMC Pilots still use charts for reference and cross checking position.

JJ

[Perixon]

Hi Johnny,

thanks for your reply - it has certainly helped me grasping all this better. Still, I have a couple of more questions:[ul]
[li]In real life, does ATC keep quiet when a pilot is approaching an airport using the approach charts? Do pilots need to tell the approach controller "hey guys, we have all the charts we could possibly need, so you just be cool and do nothing - we'll get back to you just prior to landing"?
[li]If using a tool like Super Flight Planner, I take it your route is calculated with real world departure/approach charts in mind and that your flightplan will be filled with as many new waypoints as needed for the the SID/STARS portion of the flight - does that also mean that ATC will talk you thru the entire SID/STARS procedure?
[li]If using real charts instead of letting a program do the planning for you, can you still post a flight plan from airport A to airport B and depart and approach the airports without the ATC cancelling your flight plan because of any deviations to it?
[li]If you use a utility such as Traffic Tools or Project AI, will computer controlled aircraft fly by SID/STARS as well?
[li]Do FMC units for Flight Simulator 2002 take these kinds of ATC issues into mind (again, should the pilot choose another route according to SID/STARS data instead of the fairly dumb and static FS2002 ATC service)?
[/ul]

Kind regards,
Peter Eriksson

--
Greetings från Umeå, Sweden - The European Union

[Simon Evans]

Create a flightplan that goes to the IP, or a nearby VOR, NOT the airport, then this enables you to fly STARS without interference from FS2002 ATC...

Simon Evans

[jollyjohnny]

"In real life, does ATC keep quiet" you still be given clearence for landing ect. ATC is there to monitor your flight. There are all kinds of controllers involved in a flight, these are not modelled well in FS, I can't speak for other sims such as X plane (the most technologically (?) advanced sim in my opinion)This may sound stupid but if you have an airband radio, tune in and follow a flight, tuning in ect.

"Super Flight Planner" Will calculate auto routes or allow a route to be entered manually. If you know the difference in J routes ect, you can turn them on and off. Consider J-V routes as the motorways in the sky. In respect of the sids /star routing, it can be tricky as each has a name which you realy would need to know to choose which SID. As far as talking to you, well SFP will say "fly the standard Instrument departure" Although there is also an option of being vectored to the waypoints through out the flight, this is great if you dont have the charts. SFP will also give you the heading to fly to in the next phase of departure / landing, you can also imput stepped climbs or ask for a higher / lower altitude. It will also "tell" you to begin your decent and caution you regarding speed holds ect.

If your using real charts ATC will remain quiet with the exception of passing you over to different controllers. Providing you dont stray off course, (there are other avenues we could go down here in respect of wind drift ect, this will only confuse you for now) In most cases your plan will be VOR-NDB fixes. Fixes you dont realy need to be concerend with (at the moment) as most routes are VOR.

"Traffic Tools or Project AI" Dont fly SID /STAR routes.

I'm not an expert on FMC's and personally dont like them. I'm sure there are otheres here and at other forums who would gladly share the information you need regarding these machines ! For me personally they take the fun out of flying. From the Pilots I know, most like to hand fly take off to cruise, (the boring bit) reverting to hand flying the approach and landing. They tell me it's only if the weather is poor will they let the aircraft auto approach and land. Most you will find entered aviation to fly not spend hours punching numbers.

Take one step at a time Peter, dont be reliant on machines to do everything for you. This will enhance your skills and give a good grounding for later.

Hope this has been some help to you.

Regards to Sweden

JJ

Also a proud European !

[rara_bb]

>In real life, does ATC keep
>quiet when a pilot is
>approaching an airport using the
>approach charts? Do pilots need
>to tell the approach controller
>"hey guys, we have all
>the charts we could possibly
>need, so you just be
>cool and do nothing -
>we'll get back to you
>just prior to landing"?

In real life, ATC sometimes just lets you fly the STAR that you filed in your flightplan, but unless you are flying transitions, the STAR will end somewhere around the airport and ATC will always give you vectors to final approach and clear you for the ILS.
Transitions are, additionally to STARS, standard routes that lead you right into the ILS glideslope. They are used at heavy traffic airports.
Many times, though, ATC will take you completely off course and give you vectors or directs that have nothing to do with the STAR you intended to fly.

>If using a tool like Super
>Flight Planner, I take it
>your route is calculated with
>real world departure/approach charts in
>mind and that your flightplan
>will be filled with as
>many new waypoints as needed
>for the the SID/STARS portion
>of the flight - does
>that also mean that ATC
>will talk you thru the
>entire SID/STARS procedure?

FS2002 ATC doesn´t use STARS at all. When departing, you can trick them by filling in the SID waypoints in the flightplan. But when arriving, they will take you off the course at a certain distance from the airport. You can, though, request a visual approach and follow your own STAR.

>If using real charts instead of
>letting a program do the
>planning for you, can you
>still post a flight plan
>from airport A to airport
>B and depart and approach
>the airports without the ATC
>cancelling your flight plan because
>of any deviations to it?

If you request visual, yes. In that case, they won´t send you nowhere.

>If you use a utility such
>as Traffic Tools or Project
>AI, will computer controlled aircraft
>fly by SID/STARS as well?

No, they will never. They take off and go direct GPS.

>[li]Do FMC units for Flight Simulator
>2002 take these kinds of
>ATC issues into mind (again,
>should the pilot choose another
>route according to SID/STARS data
>instead of the fairly dumb
>and static FS2002 ATC service)?

FMC-AddOns for FS2002 do not deal with ATC. With them, you´ll have the same problems.
I suggest to fly online with VATSIM if you are interested in real world procedures rather than the AI-ATC. There is a large division in your country, and Sweden´s airports are often staffed.
Ask me if you have questions about that.

Regards,

BEn (European also)

[flyinggriffin]

The purpose of charts is twofold. First is an aid to the pilot to make sure that ATC is giving them the proper clearances. If a controller tells you to descend to a much lower altitude than the minimum descent altitude for that segment of the approach you better be able to question it, or you might be eating leaves very quickly.

Second, the charts are there in case there is radio failure. You are expected to fly your filed flight plan and you would need the approach charts to shoot the approach. The purpose of SIDS or STARS is to let everyone know what is the ATC prefered route to go to and from a particular airport. There are also prefered routes between airports. You can file any routing you want, but will probably get one of those routes.

You are required to have the charts and information need to make an instrument approach. If you don't, you have no business flying that route or even filing IFR.

The ATC in Flight Simulator is a very simplified version of the real world. Except for canceling your flight plan it does pretty much what a real life controller would do, except that you have many more options. Think of it as the difference between buying a car and haggling with the dealer and buying something out of a vending machine. You can't dicker with a coffee machine.

The amount you are guided in real life will depend on the airport you are flying to and from. Some parts of the United States don't have radar coverage and you are basically on your own except to report your position to the controller. Terminal areas like Class B and C and D you are vectored right to the landing. At small uncontrolled airports you might be vectored to a starting point called the initial approach fix, and then fly the instrument approach with the chart. Flight Simulator only recognizes two types of IFR approaches, ILS and visual.

[lnuss]

First, ATC (in real life) must clear you for a specific SID or STAR (depending whether you're departing or arriving). If you look carefully at the SIDS and STARS, they usually have various "transitions" associated with them, and ATC will tell you which ones to use. They may also vector you part way, then clear you for the rest of the "transition." They also will tell you what to do after you've left the procedure: "Cleared for the Red Table Transition, direct Laramie, direct."

So these procedures take a lot of load off the controller, but he's still watching, asking for reports, etc. in addition to altitude assignments, and more. Nor do you use these procedures without specific clearance to do so.

FS ATC is very simplistic, compared to real life, and has no flexibility. And many factors that real controllers consider are ignored by FS ATC. Don't get me wrong, MS has done a creditable job for their first stab at ATC in the program, and much of it is well done, but it needs a LOT of refinement.

BTW, AI traffic flies direct routes -- no airways no procedures (unless ATC vectors them when IFR), etc.

Larry N.

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/Use...de0e398ee2.jpg

[Ivaneck]

A topic saved in my documentation's folder.

Definitively, this is the right place to learn how things works.

I couldn't avoid to say it: thanks to all.

:-wave

Joan Coll
Barcelona, Catalonia

[rara_bb]

>If
>you look carefully at the
>SIDS and STARS, they usually
>have various "transitions" associated with
>them, and ATC will tell
>you which ones to use.
>They may also vector you
>part way, then clear you
>for the rest of the
>"transition." They also will
>tell you what to do
>after you've left the procedure:
>"Cleared for the Red Table
>Transition, direct Laramie, direct."

Hi,

that´s the way it works in North America, in many other parts of the world, transitions are not common for SIDs. Often, you will get a direct, though.

BEn