Where have you flown as a passenger or pilot in the real world?

[angels355]

And what direction might that be?
You don't like the a380 or 787?

SIDE NOTE:

I'm guessing, lower pay, longer hours, loss of retirement benefits that one works for all their lives then loses (speaking generally not for skylab), overcrowding in general. There are pilots that don't have any food in the aircraft, no meal flights, and their turn around is so fast they are unable to run out to bring back a sandwich, so they fly hungry. The old guard from the golden age of airlines, were treated like kings, VIP service and food all the time, and the finest hotels. Although Skylab has said that he had to work long hard hours. In recent years the job of airline pilot has in many cases become miserable. One major airline pilot dreamed all his life of becoming a pro pilot, but in the modern airline world, he's miserable and wants to quit to become a photographer. Another major airline pilot was so upset about the union situation, he would not even say a word of advice to me, didn't want to talk at all.

There's a difference between major airline pilots and regional pilots. Major airline pilots work for money, and because their job is similar in some respects as professional athletes, they need a significant amount of money for it. In recent years the pay has been bad, same with benefits. Some lost their retirement, it's difficult to explain just how much that is.

Regional airlines are a completely different story, regional airline pilots have it much worse with ridiculously bad pay, they can't even afford a hotel. Some sleep overnight in their car, or at a group flop house, or in the airport lobby.

Demand is going way up in the not too distant future, so the VIP era could return again. There's already talk of providing limousine service for pilots back and forth to the airport.

I have thoroughly examined the possible career option of becoming a professional pilot. I've been an aviation enthusiast since I was four, started flying when I was seven, however don't mean to sound obnoxious but I demand real money to be a pilot. Not accepting minimum wage from regional airlines, I need rock star money. I have other career options, but becoming a pilot is an option if it pays A LOT, that's a major motivating factor. For example, not that long ago, attorneys would become airline pilots because IT PAID MORE!! And that's what's important.

Didn't mean to go off topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUBmYifCCYA

[benEggleston16]

don't plan on EVER flying again.

Not even for recreation (c152?)

OR going on 'vacation' as the Americans say (egypt, paris?)...

[skylab]

QUOTE]NASTAR-
And what direction might that be?
You don't like the a380 or 787?[/QUOTE]

Well, I only flew five different airliners before retiring; Connies, DC-6s, DC-7, B-737s, and DC-8s. When all this "new" stuff started coming out [FBW et al], I decided it was time to hang it up, so I did. I retired off the "only" jet transport ever made. Naturally, IMHO !! I was lucky to have flown what I considered to be the best of the best; Connies, DC-6s, and the DC-8s. Don't miss any of it now.

QUOTE]benEggleston16-
Not even for recreation (c152?)[/QUOTE]

NOPE !

Not sure I understand the remark about the "Cub".

And.....some of what angels355 says applies as well.

Y'all be careful out there and have fun !!

[angels355]

Y'all be careful out there and have fun !!

You know me, safety first!! http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showth...light=immelman

[NASTAR]

I respect your opinion angels 355 but i personally feel that as long as you're gettin reasonable pay and you have a job you love, aside from pay and etc, well I'd do it. Hope you dont mind but i think that demanding , as you said rockstar money or real money or limo service seems a bit....unreasonable. Okay im not talking about sleepin in the car but...you know...i dont believe i'd DEMAND luxury but would consider it a bonus...

[ReggieF5421]

What is reasonable pay?

Many regional pilots in the US make less money than someone with a $12 per hour job at Walmart.

For anyone, doing a job for one price for years, and then getting a pay cut - hurts. The hardest thing to do is to downsize after a pay cut. The level of pay doesn't matter. It hurts for anyone.

Another point - no matter how much you love the job, over time it becomes just a job. The actual primary activity might remain near as much joy as it did when the person started - but the extra paperwork, management supervision, regulations, etc - can make even a dream job - not much fun anymore.

The flying profession has changed tremendously over the past 40-50 years. The commercial pilot's job today doesn't even resemble the pilot's job back in the 50s and 60s and 70s for more than 15-20 minutes of a flight.

Pilots back then did a lot of hand flying, they did real navigation, their systems knowledge and understanding of the aircraft and how it worked had to be many levels higher than today's pilots. Engine management was something that Flight Sim doesn't even begin to approach in realism.

The old saying is that to be a Flight Engineer on a B727, you had to be able to take the aircraft apart and rebuild it. The FE was a pilot back then. The career track was FE, Right Seat, Left Seat.

[angels355]

I respect your opinion angels 355 but i personally feel that as long as you're gettin reasonable pay and you have a job you love, aside from pay and etc, well I'd do it. Hope you dont mind but i think that demanding , as you said rockstar money or real money or limo service seems a bit....unreasonable. Okay im not talking about sleepin in the car but...you know...i dont believe i'd DEMAND luxury but would consider it a bonus...

Exactly what Reggie said. Sadly there are many pilots with exactly your attitude (no offense), which SEEMS like a good positive attitude, however for everyone concerned works out badly. Many airlines and especially regional airlines depend on pilots' love of flying to get away with hiring pilots for less money than Walmart employees make. Does it benefit the pilot or the passengers that these low pay pilots literally cannot afford a hotel to get proper rest, (can they afford to eat?), but are forced to sleep in pilot owned campers at the end of the airport, or sleep overnight in the airport lobby, or literally in their car, or they band together and as a group rent a flop house where they can all go to sleep overnight? Many of these pilots working as hard as their airline will allow them live at home with their parents, their parents from the old school who remember the glamor of being a pilot in past years, and can't understand why their child can't even afford to live in their own home after having succeeded and made it as a pilot. You probably don't realize just how low pilot salaries are. In contrast, in a nearby county in my area, 10 or more years ago, the county bus drivers were earning $75K/year, now it's probably more. Prison guards can earn as much as $100K, one such person was a customer of mine, he had a nice pickup and a Mercedes.

I'm not the one demanding the limousine, it's the airline industry's idea, because demand for pilots and pay and benefits are predicted (by the industry) to be going up, so they are planning to offer such perks to hire and retain good pilots in the future. There's more demand in Europe, Africa, Indonesia, (in India 747's are full shuttling passengers to England), (South America?), and China, I've heard of aggressive recruiting by all of these regions so some airlines once the pilot is hired ask the pilots to sign commitment agreements where they agree to stay with the airline for a certain amount of time. Things will be improving for pilots because of future demand. I'm not a union type of person, but it's important for the pilot and the traveling public, and in the end for the airline also, to have a rock start attitude, and for the benefit of everyone to boldly ask to receive professional pay. It might sound selfish, however would you like your surgeon to make less than a McDonald's employee, and can not get enough rest or food to do his job properly? It's healthy for all concerned to appear selfish, for everyone's benefit.

[benEggleston16]

There's more demand in Europe, Africa, Indonesia, (in India 747's are full shuttling passengers to England), (South America?), and China, I've heard of aggressive recruiting by all of these regions so some airlines once the pilot is hired ask the pilots to sign commitment agreements where they agree to stay with the airline for a certain amount of time.

Yes my cousin in Malaysia's friend got all is training for free with a 15 year contract at MAS
He said Cathay Pacific offered 25 year contracts with an Australian PPL, all required type ratings and housing in HK inclusive
My dad joked 25 year job security in Europe is not a commitment but a godsend!

This ultra-low pay thing, is this just a US problem?

[angels355]

Yes my cousin in Malaysia's friend got all is training for free with a 15 year contract at MAS
He said Cathay Pacific offered 25 year contracts with an Australian PPL, all required type ratings and housing in HK inclusive
My dad joked 25 year job security in Europe is not a commitment but a godsend!

This ultra-low pay thing, is this just a US problem?

Probably only in the US but I could be wrong. As far as I know, at least traditionally the pay has been lower in Europe than the US for major carriers. When I was researching salaries from about 2000 however, Cathay Pacific appeared to have higher pay than anyone else in the world. I wondered if the quoted pay was in HK dollars or something? Any way the year 2000 was when salaries were about at their highest before the big economic downslide. Many pilots were furloughed for a long time, so long in fact that many of them went to nursing school, law school, and many other trades, and actually didn't want to come back.

Sorry to go off topic.

[ReggieF5421]

This is somewhat off topic, but along the line of why some folks see US aviation as not a good job market.

Note the numbers below are general ranges that I've found from past research. I'm sure someone can find a few cases which were cheaper training, or with higher salaries. I however stand by my numbers as being accurate for most typical cases.

This ultra-low pay thing, is this just a US problem?

As far as I can tell, it is almost exclusively in the US with the ultra-competitive regional airline market.

Though there are many places in the world where the pay level is low on international standards, but quite good by local standards.

Breaking into the US pilot market is extemely difficult. There are NO airline paid training programs, no guaranteed jobs, etc.

I did my private pilot flight training at a school that makes its money from Chinese and Indian students. The young instructors were all very jealous of their students with guarantees of jobs in mainline jets after training and less than 1,000 hours.

The typical US pilot track for the past 10-15 years is:

1) $8,000 - $20,000 for a PPL with MEL and IFR;

2) One or two years as a CFI with a flight income of about $6,000 to $8,000 and working at a part time job in the evenings to make enough for an apartment and food. The goal here is to get to 500 to 1,000 hours flight time;

3.1.) Possibly surviving an interview for a position to fly B-1900 or SF-340 or Dash 8 - the newly hired regional pilot must pay from his/her own money for the type rating training - $3,000 to $5,000. Note for every open pilot position there will be 25 to 50 qualified applicants. These jobs pay about $15,000 to $20,000 per year to start;

3.2.) Paying $25,000 to $30,000 for training to get CRJ/ERJ type rated and surviving an interview for a position in regional jets. Even more competitive than the prop positions with about 100 qualified applicants for each new job. The pay may be up to $30,000 per year to start.

Another track is night cargo. I know guys who fly C-208 Caravans on night cargo flights - and make about $24,000 per year and are very happy to be building 'turbine' hours. I know others who fly Falcon 20 or Lear 20 series for about $15 per flight hour - and are very happy to be building 'jet' hours.

The goal of course is to get to 2,500 hours with 1,000 hours or more in jets. That might get the new pilot a chance to interview with a major airline.

Something which makes the 'break in' job harder to get is that due to cutbacks in recent years, almost all US airlines have waiting lists of laid-off pilots who get a chance at any openings because of their past work at the airline, type rating, etc.

One of the best pilots in the flight department of the company I used to work for (flying Challengers and Gulfstreams) was a laid-off AAL MD-80 series pilot with six years USAF C-130 experience before his 8 years with American. When he was notified in 2006, after five years laid off from American, that they would take him back - he chose to stay in the corporate jet world. He also said his salary in the corporation was more than he would ever get as an MD-80 Captain with AAL.

Some pilots are able to get enough seniority and hours so that their pay from the regional airlines is above the median US income, and a few get to make more than a really good IT Network Analyst.

Even top US airline captains don't make as much as a senior IT department manager in a large corporation.

But in general, the US job market for pilots is oversaturated with many more qualified young pilots (under age 40) than we will ever have positions.

There might be a shortage in a few years of experienced (10,000 hours +) large transport aircraft pilots - but no shortage of entry level airline pilots for decades.