I got spanked today on Vatsim

[mith]

Man, I thought I was doing good on Vatsim, but today was a nightmare and the controller was getting very impatient with me. At one point, he said, "for the 4th time..." and I kind of thought that was rude because he could have PM'd me. On the other hand shame on me for him having to tell me something four times!

One thing I remember is getting ready to take off from KLAX 25L. I said, "N10316 is Skymaster, request to taxi to 25L for straight out departure ifr as filed to KPOC. I don't remember at which point he said this, but he said, "it's not a straight out departure". What I had done was, once cleared the runway, I hit my GPS which turned me just about 180° back towards KPOC. This is when all hell broke loose. He was throwing stuff at me that I didn't understand. I thought my "route" was filed and that was it. At one point, I told him I was navigating via GPS until I establish on the localizer. Then he said, "you can't just fly GPS and then switch to Nav". I didn't understand why...

I got so frustrated, I just signed off to cool down a bit. Later I logged back on, I saw that Lax_Ctr was no longer showing as active, only Lax_grd. So I PM'd Lax_grd (ground?) and started relating what happened. Turns out, this person (I won't mention his name because I'm not blaming him for my stupidity)... was the same person that I was talking to previously. He explained (via pm) that he got frustrated with me and he felt his job was to weed out people who are clueless (not his verbiage... I'm paraphrasing). He also mentioned that a supervisor could be notified and people can get banned from Vatsim. I thought it was unreasonable to ban someone for not knowing everything...

I think he said I had the wrong flight route filed. I use, "http://laartcc.org/tecroutes.php" to find my routes. Sometimes there are more than one route though... sometimes they're different, sometimes they're the same. Example: Kpoc to Klax... here are two routes
1. PDZ PDZ270R LAX RWY 24R LOC
2.PDZ PDZ270R V394 AHEIM V8 TANDY

They're both kpoc to klax, but they're different. I have no clue what those routes mean, hence, I don't know which one is appropriate for my route.

After he and I spoke via PM, he kind of calmed down and ultimately gave me his e-mail address if I had any questions. I didn't save it because I don't want to further frustrate him with my lack of knowledge. I had told him that I was so frustrated that I probably would not use Vatsim anymore. He said no don't do that.

Anyway, I have some questions I guess that need to be answered. One is, when I file an IFR flight, should I not use the GPS for part of the flight because this is what I've been doing. I know there are VOR's that I can navigate with, but at this point I don't know how to do that.

Any comments (good or bad) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[mith]

Update! I logged onto Vatsim again tonight @2:00 AM... guess who sent me a PM? Nicholas! He said, "you're up late tonight"... I told him I was back and wanted to do it right this time! I was pleasantly surprised that he took the time to talk to me via PM. He's actually a very nice AND helpful person! I sent him my "route" via PM to make sure it was right (it was). He talked to me via PM for a while to make sure I had everything right. He walked me through the steps and told me exactly what to say.

I took off, followed his headings etc... locked onto the localizer (6R) and it was a perfect landing! NOW I feel like I've accomplished something special seeing as how I'm on the low-end of the learning curve.

Vatsim is the best thing since sliced bread (that shows my age.... LOL). He was at the end of his shift and was tired. Once I exited the runway to parking... I thanked him again for his help.

People.... if you haven't tried Vatsim, you have NO idea what you're missing. With Vatsim, it IS as real as it gets!

[cowpatz]

Glad to read that it all turned out OK in the end. Unfortunately a lot of simmers encounter similar experiences as you did when they initially start flying on VATSIM. The objective of VATSIM is to keep things as realworld as possible. This is so each participant can enjoy as close to real world experiences as possible adding to their overall enjoyment and satisfaction. The problem arises when some individuals get a little carried away and forget that we all need to start somewhere. As a real world pilot it amazes me as to how well non RW pilots actually fly and follow, with reasonable accuracy, real life procedures. What is really needed is a VATSIM pilot grading system (voluntary) whereby a pilot grades himself as to his or her capabilities. This would start out at say a basic VFR grade up to IFR with the ability to track VOR radials etc and be conversant with IFR procedures. The controller could then see straight away what your capability is and then tailor his/her instructions to suit. In the meantime it would be prudent to add a brief note in your flight plan as to what your capability is ie: Newbie or Beginner IFR. Also note your level of navigation equipment that you are using (if it is limited in function). There is a drop down box in the flight planning section that lists your navigation capability but it is somewhat coarse. If you are using the default GPS or CIVA INS then list this in the comments section. A majority of pilots flying heavy tin are using FMS equipped aircraft that are easy to navigate, are precise and have a navigation database complete with published Departures, Arrivals, Airways and Approaches. On the other hand the default MS GPS is very limited in function and is restricted to the original MS database which is very dated. You will also note that if you do a 'direct to waypoint' function the remainder of the route drops out....most inconvenient and just dumb. In order to get around this place the cursor over the waypoint you wish to track to then press the menu keg. This brings up a dialogue box " Fly leg XXX --> XXX". Press enter and now that leg will activate. The aircraft might not track directly to the requested waypoint but instead try to intercept the leg. If so then just use a heading mode on the autopilot to steer to it. The major limitation is when the controller clears you to a waypoint that is not on your flight plan! If this is the case just say something like "Unable to track to XXX request vectors (heading steers)". Try and learn as much as you can and when online try and listen to what others are saying and doing. It is amazing what you will pick up in a short space of time. See you online sometime.

[ghosteyes17]

Most of the controllers are like that they do get bit angry some times but after it is over it is over. if someone wants help they will provide them. Been a controller is a hard job they work hard by doing test training to control not like pilots,

[angels355]

Real world flights whether vfr or ifr are both very complex, and both require a lot of pre-flight planning. For VFR for example you need the chart sectional maps to check what you're flying over, what is restricted or prohibited airspace, and you need to plan for proper procedures to fly through or around, or under restricted airspace such as Class B, C, D, or in Class A FL180 to FL600 you need an IFR flight plan no matter what the weather is.

For IFR it is even more complex, requiring sectionals again to know what you're flying over, what's restricted or prohibited, then you need the airport plates, SIDs and STARs for both airports, you need to choose an alternative destination airport. People who fly straight through from one destination to another with GPS or Loran nav equipment, rack up high numbers of FAA violations, because they often fly over restricted airspace. for example you can't fly over the White House, the Vatican, or certain music colleges . There are also speed limits, 250 knots below FL100, 200 knots within I think 4 nm of Class D airspace if I remember correctly, and through VFR corridors through Class B airspace, I believe, duh, and under the shelf of Class B. SIDSs AND STARs can be incredibly complex, including stepped descents at specific points, sometimes you have to fly complex approaches also to specific waypoints, on departure, also complex routes out, or IFR departure procedures for your safety to prevent you from flying into a mountain, and reduced throttle requirements over certain neighborhoods. Some taxiways have restrictions on wing size. You don't follow these estabilished rules, then people get steamed.

In VFR, you can't just go flying straight through clouds, you might hit another aircraft.

All these points are why Flight is such a huge disappointment. It's a game not a simulation, however our (the royal our) flight simulator development money at MS is all going into the game, Flight. MS management thought that the FS series was much too encyclopedic and complex to be an enjoyable game, well as complex as it is it could be much more complex. At least the FS series gives the user a good idea of how complex and regulated real flying is. But the good thing is, you fly flight simulator, and you pick up some of these rules, restrictions, and procedures along the way, and you really do become more prepared for the real world. There are many things I practiced correctly in FS that became old hat for me, and while doing my RW flight studies found that I already knew many of the things in the courses. One interesting thing was while flying IFR to an airport near KLAX, FS ATC guided me right between two or three Class B airspace areas, that is a common theme in the real world. Flight does not even begin to reflect the real world.

[royalone]

he mentioned that a supervisor could be notified and people can get banned from Vatsim. I thought it was unreasonable to ban someone for not knowing everything...
Thanks

You made some mistakes, however getting banned for this would be totally unreasonable. At no point did you use profane language or threaten anyone from what I read in your post. I am a Vatsim controller and I can tell you that there are no grounds whatsoever for the controller to say this. I think the controller should get his facts straight. The only thing I can see happening is the supervisor having a chat
with you and give you maybe a warning. The controller in question needs to take a step back and realize that Vatsim is about pilots and controllers. I have had to deal with controllers like that myself and I told him to go ahead and call the supervisor, at that point it was dropped and I continued my flight.

[mith]

I am able to fly IFR from kpoc to klax pretty well (short flight), however... returning is where I have the problem. The reason for this is, I have no clue what the "route" information actually means. Example, this (SLI5 SLI V8 POXKU V363 POM) is the only route found on the, "find route" website. Since I don't know what that means, nor do I know how to create a route myself... I have to use what I find. Returning is always when they tell me that I'm off course or doing something wrong. GOING to klax is always pretty much uneventful. In fact, one night the controller re-routed me to runway 6 (noise abatement)... and that went well.

God help everyone if I ever do more than a 30 mile flight... LOL

[angels355]

I am able to fly IFR from kpoc to klax pretty well (short flight), however... returning is where I have the problem. The reason for this is, I have no clue what the "route" information actually means. Example, this (SLI5 SLI V8 POXKU V363 POM) is the only route found on the, "find route" website. Since I don't know what that means, nor do I know how to create a route myself... I have to use what I find. Returning is always when they tell me that I'm off course or doing something wrong. GOING to klax is always pretty much uneventful. In fact, one night the controller re-routed me to runway 6 (noise abatement)... and that went well.

God help everyone if I ever do more than a 30 mile flight... LOL

In a couple years you'll be a pro at this, you'll feel accomplished. No coconut bras but you'll have the good feeling of accomplishing something that takes skill and knowledge, you can't beat that.

[mith]

In a couple years you'll be a pro at this, you'll feel accomplished. No coconut bras but you'll have the good feeling of accomplishing something that takes skill and knowledge, you can't beat that.

I'm getting a LOT of information whcih I'm trying to take in... just had another great contact with a controller tonight to took a LOT of time working with me. I was going to post another thread about how to interpret the route info, but I'll google it first before I take up the forum's time... so off I go to Google!

[fxsttcb]

"SLI5 SLI V8 POXKU V363 POM"

SLI5 is a Tower Enroute Control(TEC) standardized routing. Follow the instructions.

Fly to SLI(Seal Beach VOR)
turn onto V8
at the POXKU intersection turn onto V363
fly to POM

V8(Victor Airway 8-21) follows SLI58R(58 degree radial outbound/from SLI)

AirNav describes POXKU as SLI58R DME 14.26 and POM164R intersection.
It's on Enroute Low and SID charting. It is the point where V8-21 and V363 intersect and you turn North to POM

http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=33....18.408&zoom=10
Switch from Hybrid VFR to Low IFR, zoom one click, Drag left and down until POM/Brackett Field are in view.
That should help you visualize your route.
A screenie of that will allow you to highlight the particulars and save it, or print it out...Don