Desert aircraft graveyards

[angels355]

I've been an aviation enthusiast since I was a kid, and since then I was always facinated by aircraft graveyards in various deserts. I have always been curious what it would take to get one of them flying again. And would it be cheap to buy a desert graveyard plane? I've seen the process F4 Phantoms have gone through to become target drones for various studies, they go through an incredible restoration process by many expert techs, then they go and blow them outta the sky, darn!

Regarding civilian jets in the graveyards, I understand that some of them are simply parked there as they are not in use. They get flown in and parked as far as I know while not in use by the leasing company or airline. What do you think a 747 like that might cost? Wonder what it would cost to get it operational? Would a graveyard Learjet or Gulfstream jet be anywhere near flyable? King Air's?

Zero and low bypass jet engines can be shockingly expensive to operate, in the Learjet class as much as four times more expensive because of the huge amount of fuel they consume versus more fuel efficient high bypass jet engines. Much more efficient are turboprops, even more efficient are piston aircraft however they need more frequent engine overhauls and are less reliable. Hypethetically, if you have an older 747 with less efficient lower bypass engines and they need an overhaul, how would the cost of replacing the engines with high bypass GE engines compare for example? I understand that China routinely overhauls GE jet engines, would there be a considerable savings getting used overhauled engines?

Just continuing the long term daydream. Anyone have any comments?

[clayton6221]

"Hypethetically, if you have an older 747 with less efficient lower bypass engines and they need an overhaul, how would the cost of replacing the engines with high bypass GE engines compare for example?"

Very expensive to do. You have to install new pylons and modify the wings to accept the higher power of the new engines, in the first place. Lots of structure gets beefed up. Mount fittings are all different too.
Second, most -100 thru -300 series of 747 use jet fuel controllers to control the engines. Think Holley 4 barrel VS a modern fuel injection system as a comparasion. Mechanical VS Electronic, in other words. Which would mean you are going to have to update the avionics to a digital format to use the modern turbofan engines such as the CF-6 class. And that means more money and system engineering to get to the point you can even consider changing the engines.

Long story short....
Aviation is EXPENSIVE...

clay

[aircav1970]

Hi Farley,Clayton is quite right about refitting a de-commisioned aircraft,a very expensive proposition.Not only the engine/fuel system upgrades but just think about the environment that those birds are subjected to when they are left sitting.In just a year of non-op think about the hydraulic systems seals,all the electronics,here in the desert where I live they have little rodents that like to make homes in dark,cool spots and are prone to munching on wiring.Rubber parts are destroyed in a very short time....so,it would be a less of an expense to purchase a used bird that is all sorted and has all the certs.up to date than to try and bring one back from the dead...just ask Kermit Weeks,aircraft restoration is not for the faint of heart or on a budget!

[angels355]

Thanks very much Clay and aircav. Darn, it was always fun to dream about it though. There was a Constellation saved from the graveyard and aluminum recyclers, its' restoration must have been expensive.

Instead of bringing back from the dead a C130 or even a C123, probably be more economical to buy an Antonov 70? http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/an_70.htm

No hope on the restoration front?

[simmerdr]

Angels:

First of all, thanks for the Antonov-70 link....it does look so similar to A400M (as the picture says). It should be an interesting aircraft to fly (eh.....I mean sim)...I'm a fan of these old soviet-era aircraft, but I don't seem to have this one in my hangar. I did find a couple of FS98 models here in Flightsim, but nothing for FSX (yet)...

Regarding:

...Darn, it was always fun to dream about it though....

Clay and Aircav have already pointed out the harsh realities.

Here, below, are two (somewhat related to your topic) interesting items I had come across.

[1] There is this Cardiologist in Puerto Rico, who has pretty much put together a real-aircraft-parts 727 forward section (simulator) in his backyard.

The article is here on Flightsim:

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/content.php?1801

I read somewhere that in this compilation, only a few (Boeing genuine) parts are missing one being the "generator drive temperature gauge" for the B727-231, for which he is still looking....

The flightsim article says:

Joe has had two love affairs in his life....his wife and flying....

(Hmmm...frankly it may no longer work out that way for me...if I attempt something like this in my backyard......!)

Here is his 727 project website:

http://project727.xsn.net/

[2] Forgetting about B-747 and AN-70, for a moment, there is another Joe, Joe Shepherd, known for his part in the 2009 Amelia film (btw, this was the guy whose L-12A they used in the movie..also, since the actress Hillary Swank could not be insured to be inside the aircraft during filming, Joe did all the flying shots...with the moustache shaved off......!).

Previously, to bring back the "tired" (not deserted) L-12A to flyable condition, it took him some 19 years and in excess of 20,000 man hours of work!

You can read more about him by searching for "Joe Shepherd Electra" on Google.

[angels355]

On my FS9 installed on my 1.1 ghz P3, (haven't started it up in a year or more) I think I had an AN70, but I'm certain I had an AN22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-22 . I've seen an An70 for sale for less than you think, $2 million? If I had one I'd probably wind up flying cargo to Northern Canada or Alaska.....brrrrrr! The An70 is a very interesting aircraft, modern, and cheap, designed I think in the Ukraine after the fall of the USSR.

I saw an article a few years ago about a private owner of a fully flight worthy 727. It was owned by a former 727 airline pliot. He said paraphrasing, "Anything that's possible to do with a 727 I've done it!" Local friend flew the 727 during his career, he also said it was an amazing performer. Because of the slats and flaps, if you could see the airport below you, no matter how high you were you could descend and land it. An aggressiver performer. I think it was a gas guzzler however because of its' low bypass or zero bypass engines. The first guy I mentioned with an airworthy 727, flew it around the country at air shows and doing other promotions to pay for its' upkeep and fuel.

At KPAE about 25 years ago I saw a private Boxcar C119 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchi..._Flying_Boxcar , the owner was loading it up (unloading? can't remember) with one or two sports cars.

Of course you know about John Travolta's private 707 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osuXXwPTWcY Here's a photo of his house http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_nov20...olta_House.htm , he has his own private 727 capable runway!

Michael Dorn (Worf STNG) has owned a Lockheed Jetstar, heard he has been pursuing vintage fighter jets.

Such hobbies are extremely expensive. I wonder if there is a cheaper way?

"(Hmmm...frankly it may no longer work out that way for me...if I attempt something like this in my backyard......!)" --I can relate to that, women want the "Better Homes and Gardens" program, and often won't tolerate over the top hobbies.

Perhaps the only thing I can reach for is a private plane, but I can still dream about both, private plane and graveyard planes.

[tres2]

Can I jerk this sideways for a second and ask about the graveyards themselves? Everybody who has done the 747 mission knows about the graveyard near Edwards Air Force Base, but are there any others? I mean in flight Sim?

[aircav1970]

Tres,another is located in Marana,Arizona,located between Phoenix and Tucson just off Interstate 10.That's where they mothballed the Beechcraft Starships before they were scrapped.

[simmerdr]

...There was a Constellation saved from the graveyard and aluminum recyclers, its' restoration must have been expensive.

angels:

Several things came together uniquely leading to the successful restoration of the Connie at the Airline History Museum. First of all, Kansas City having been the TWA Headquarters, already had access to a "very" dedicated group of volunteer TWA workers/retirees (former pilots, mechanics, stewardresses) that must have contributed significant personal time (free of cost) to the restoration project. In fact, now that I think about it, I had asked the gentleman, who was the Guide, when I took interior visit of this a/c, about it. He specifically mentioned that most of the contributors to this "Save a Connie" project were indeed volunteers. I am not sure how expensive the restoration was or how expensive it would have been otherwise (w/o enthusiastic, and, of course, knowledgable, volunteer support).

[angels355]

angels:

Several things came together uniquely leading to the successful restoration of the Connie at the Airline History Museum. First of all, Kansas City having been the TWA Headquarters, already had access to a "very" dedicated group of volunteer TWA workers/retirees (former pilots, mechanics, stewardresses) that must have contributed significant personal time (free of cost) to the restoration project. In fact, now that I think about it, I had asked the gentleman, who was the Guide, when I took interior visit of this a/c, about it. He specifically mentioned that most of the contributors to this "Save a Connie" project were indeed volunteers. I am not sure how expensive the restoration was or how expensive it would have been otherwise (w/o enthusiastic, and, of course, knowledgable, volunteer support).

Thanks simmerdr, there seems to be a common theme in very positively successful restoration projects, lots of skilled volunteers. That's how they do it at the Confederate Air Force. I have a documentary about their group, perhaps it's called Ghost Squadron, it was a recent film, checked it out at the library. They have a lot of volunteers to do stuff like remove paint from bombers. And a large number of the CAF members are A/P FAA certified mechanics, they do all their own work. They had a new built from the ground up Zero replica. Unforunately it and many other rare aircraft were destroyed in hangar fires.

I had an A/P mechanic and an A/P + mechanical engineer who both volunteered their time on WWII restorations for different museums. And both had been temporarily friends and volunteered to help me for free with my projects. Unfortunately I just didn't have that multiple gold chain and large gold rings appearance that might have inspired some enthusiasm and confidence, so both used colorful metaphors and told me to take a long takeoff roll on a short aircraft carrier.

I got a lot more traction on ground up replica projects requiring cutting edge engineering and machine shops, apparently my green glowing brain won over some confidence with them. The above two still don't talk to me.

I've got an idea, I could start my own museum, "Lewis & Clark Aerospace Museum", first entry a low cost run down Cessna 340 in desperate need of attention. I could get many certified volunteers who can work around the clock installing GPS and moving map instruments, new interior, new paint. "Yeah, that's the ticket!"