ATC question (real world proceedures)

[JonP01]

OK. I can't find an explanation for this either in the game manuals or interactive lessons with that comedian bloke Rod ;-) But I've posted the question here because it is a real-life question. I often hear a pilot say to ATC something along the lines : "Bankstown tower, Cessna Alpha Mike November with Hotel..."

Or another example: "Willy tower, Cessna Alpha Mike November with Whiskey requesting taxi for east departure".

What I don't understand are the "with Hotel" and "with Whiskey" bits. I think I've also heard just about every other letter of the phonetic alphabet used as well, Golf and Zulu seeming also to be a popular "choices".

OK, now I don't think for one moment these pilots are either travel industry entrpreneurs or drunk :-lol I'd like to know what these phrases mean and when and why they are used. I hope someone can put my curiosity to rest. Thanks!

[pacallen]

They are the information that can be obtained from tuning to the ATIS. For instance "Kansas City International ATIS, information HOTEL. Departing and Arriving on 19R and 19L. Temperature 23. Dewpoint 17. Altimiter 30.21." etc etc. When the ATIS info is updated, the next letter is used, ie India, then Juliet.

Hope this helps (and hope I'm right... I'm pretty sure about this).

Peter Allen
http://flyvanguard.homestead.com

[b_bonnett]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-01 AT 11:09PM (EDT)[/font][p]From what I understand, "Uniform" or "Whiskey" or whatever is a code name for the current ATIS (Automatic Terminal Information Service, if you didn't know :-)). I believe it is said at the start of the message, and at the end it says something like "on initial contact let the controller know you have Uniform", so that is what they are doing. This is updated each time the weather information is updated.

"Zulu" time is the same as GMT time, i.e. 04:00 zulu = 04:00 GMT = 14:00 in Sydney. I don't think that they use Zulu as a code-letter.

Hope this helps.

Blair.

EDIT: I see you got in before me Peter ... I think this would mean we are both right! :-lol

[JonP01]

Thanks for those replies. So in other words if I had just tuned to ATIS and it was up to Delta, then I would say for example, "Bankstown Tower, Cessna Alpha Mike November with Delta ready for taxi departing east"??

I must check this out in FS2002 now I know what to look for! Actually in the ATC lesson, Rod gets you to tune ATIS first, then I think you depart with Echo. A pity he didn't explain it though. Thanks

[jm9452]

Here is an example. It does refer to the ATIS report. ATIS is updated every hour.
As a real pilot I will give you an example of what I say. Using my home airport at Spring field MO. You have to tell ATC who you you are,where you are and what you want to do.
First you do your pre flight and get everything ready to go. Start up your engine. And then you tune in the ATIS. My ATIS 119.05,you will here all the pertinent info for the airport. Weather active runway Notams etc... Then depending on the hour they will give the alfa numeric name ALFA,BRVO etc..
Here we go with what I say.
My clearance and ground control are the same guy so I always just go right to my clearance frequencies.

"Sprinfield clearance,Cessna 8855Uniform(tail #N8855U) with KILO(the ATIS I just recieved)at PRO FLIGHT AIR(MY LOCATION)
Departing to OZARK (WHERE I WANT TO GO) at 3500 (ALTITUDE THAT I WANT TO FLY)" Then the controler will come back with your clearance.
Cessna 8855uniform cleared for 3500 departure freq.121.1 squack 1234(Transponder code they assign)
Then you read it back to the controler. He will then call back "55uniform read back is corect"
Then you call ground,wich in my cace is allways the same controller so I don't have to change frequncies. Othewise you change to ground freq.
Then you say "Springfield ground Cessnaa 8855Uniform at Proflight air ready to taxi" Cessna 8855 Uniform cleared to taxi runway 36 stop and hold short contact tower 119.9.
Then ya head over to the runup point get your runup done and taxi to the active runway, in this case 36. Hold short. Bring your tower freq. active and get your departure freq. dialed into standby.
"Springfield tower Cessna 8855uniform is ready for take off"
If no aircraft are on final tower will come back.
"55uniform cleared for take off"
Roll ahead line up apply power and get up and out.
Shortly after take off you get handed off to departure controll
Bring departure to active.
"Springfield departure Cessna 8855uniform with you climing throug 2500 for 3500"
"Cessna 8855uniform radar contact turn heading 090 climb and maintain 3500"
Also you always repeat back to the controler so that he knows that you understand. That is a quick rundown of the basics.
Hope it helps a bit. Also once you start dialog with the controlers they usually shorten your call sign down to save time on the radio. like "Cessna 8855uniform becoms just 55uniform" unless there is another airplane in the controlled airspace with a similar tail number.:-)

[dil52]

Everything that was said above is exactly right.
Just to list the different times you have to change frequencies here is a list.
It may not be exactly like this in FS2002, but in the real world it goes like this.
Various radio settings and ATC's
ATIS: weather conditions, clouds, wind--- set altimeter (recorded)

The various ATC's are as follows
Delivery:--- R/W assignment, Climb and Maintain ___ feet. initial altitude setting.
Ground:----- Taxi instructions ie. Taxi to R/W 27R and hold short.
Tower:------ Take off instructions ei R/W heading or vectored heading.
Departure:-- "Radar Contact" and farthur altitude and heading instructions.
Once you're leaving "controled space" approximately 40 nm from AP Departure hands you to Center
Center:------Various, depending on the part of the world or country you are. A Center ATC will tell you to contact Arrival
At around 50nm from Arrival AP you should request to leave frequency to get weather and dail in local AP ATIS (gives you altimeter settings and the present R/W being used).... this could change by the time you get closer to the AP.
Arrival:---- Vectoring instructions
Tower:------ Landing instructions
Ground:----- Taxing and gate instructions

In smaller APs there may not be a (Delivery ATC), or even Ground for that matter. Then more instructions would be given by each Controller to talk to. ATC's sometimes double up on duties as well depending on the traffic. For instance, I sat with a controllor who was handling both Departure and Arrival. It was late at night and the traffic was no heavy.
When I was young I used to go to a small remote AP out in western USA with my brother, who was acting as a "Center Controller". Many years ago, but I can remember a few things.

Keep in mind, when you're on the ground, you can not be seen on the radar scope. Not until you are approximately one or two thousand feet above ground do they pick you up.
This varies also, do to the surrounding terrain of any particular airport. If the radar was aimed too low they would get nothing but noise (ground clutter) and wouldn't be able to pick out your plane. You must have cleared the horizon.

:-wave
Fred
http://www.flight-sim.net

[JonP01]

Thanks for taking the time with all this input. It is very illuminating. I have to admit it was a bit daunting last night when I did my first FS2002 IFR flight to Sydney airport. There was a heap of other traffic (and I only have the ATC slider at 33%!!!). I swear I was given so many vectors, altititudes and frequency changes by ATC that I almost would have needed to be an octopus to do it in real life. I think Microsoft's traffic algorythm takes into account what actual weekday it is! Fridays are always busier!

Sydney Approach vectored my Cessna 182RG in to runway 16R and assigned me an altitude of 2,000 ft until I intercepted the glideslope. No problem. About 6 nm out, I intercepted the glideslope and was happily looking forward to touching down a few minutes later. Only 5 nm out now. So I switched to Tower and they gave me clearance for an ILS approach to 16R. Then I hear this almightly roar from the rear speakers in my surround sound setup. The sound was coming from above and behind my head. Well I'll tell you it was like a scene out of Close Encounters. Here I am, on Final using an instrument approach and this ruddy great big 747 AI comes screaming in right over my head at twice my speed, heading straight for touch down on runway 16R as well!!! Next thing, Tower is on the radio telling me to go around. I'm thinking. No kidding!! I also made a mental note to visit the dry cleaners the next day :-lol :-lol

After 20 more minutes they finally found time to let me land. So kind. What i want to know is why don't Microsoft have option # 10 - Abuse the ATC!!!!!!!! :-lol

I have to say. I have never been so absorbed by a simulation ever. Your brain never gets the chance to relax. It is awesome.

[dil52]

JonPO1,
Sounds like you're having fun with FS the way it was meant
to be. :-)
I don't know the rules at Sidney, however you would never see
a C182 on approach to KPIT. It's closed to GA.
The traffic would be too hard to regulate with mixed bag
of 140/90kt and 250/140 kt approach speeds.
Especially when controlling parallel approaches at the same time.
Perhaps that's why you had to heavy landing over top of you.
The vortex could be horrible.:-)

There are a few things I'd like to see added.
Holding patterns.
Emergency landings (at different AP than in plan)
Alternate Airport instructions (ie AP closed due to weather)
Proceedure Turn patterns (being vectored to the OM at an impossible angle to catch the ILS)
forceing a proceedure turn.
I'm sure real pilots would want these as options,
because they waste too much time in the real world
doing these things.

I've heard pilots talking about 45min holding patterns 200nm from KORD because there were three or four closer patterns. Can you imagine the FS making it as real as it is!!!?
:-wave
Fred
http://www.flight-sim.net

[JonP01]

Exactly Fred. You are of course right about Sydney. Most GA activity in the Sydney basin area is based out of Bankstown, Camden and Hoxton Park. My approach normally could never have happened in real life, which is a great justification for (i) me not having a pilot's licence :-lol (ii) expanding the functionality for FS2004 and (iii) using flight sim FS2002, because I get to try things out that I never could in real life. To tell the truth, I'd actually be a bit peeved if the game refused to let me file a flight plan that included a full stop at YSYD in a Cessna 182 :-roll That's when I try to stop convincing my pilot friend how "real" the sim is...just for the moment :-lol

[toddrf]

Now you know what it is like when I fly into Dulles with about 3000 Blue Ridge CRJs coming in at 0830 and a controller who hasn't slept in 6 months and would seem to be staying awake with gallons of coffee and amphetamines.

But fear NOT!

With a little practice you qickly learn to tune out everything except your call sign and start paying attention to important stuff like runways in use, clearances, etc.

FUN FUN FUN isn't it?

Todd :-wave