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Thread: Gulfstream jets and Learjets

  1. #1

    Default Gulfstream jets and Learjets

    Just out of curiosity, for academic discussion, do you guys have an opinion about Gulstream jets? They go from moderately expensive to OMG insanely expensive at the top levels like G550, and G650. The Gulfstream II is nicer than I thought with a range of nearly 3,600 NM, Gulfstream III has a range of 3,650 NM with eight passengers and IFR reserves. Gulfstream II's are going for as little as $700,000 tp $1,150,000. The cockpit looks very rudimentary, the GIII cockpit looks better but still old.

    An aviation magazine said that Gulfstream jets don't seem to hold their prices as well as might be expected, but one person on these forums disagreed. Others say that Learjets, which have a very sexy appearance maintain their value better. $700,000 to 1.15 million for a GII seems hard to beat in comparison to a Lear 35/36 for example, comparing what you get for your money.

    There's a Gulfstream 4 selling for $6.6 million, wow that is really low compared to what I was expecting.

    Gulfstreams for sale:

    http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircra...price=60000000

    Boy, these prices are really low, I wonder if you could say the market is depressed? There's two Learjet 25's selling for $60,000 USD (each) just for parts as they said "everything has run out". I can't believe it! What do you think it would cost to make such a Lear 25 airworthy?

    Learjet 60 for under $3 million, nice price!

    I've been told in recent years that a Learjet 35 would cost about $100,000 USD/year to operate.

    Learjets for sale:

    http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircra...rchVal=learjet

    I think it is good to dream big, it inspires one to work harder and reach for ambitious goals.

    Any opinions on what it would cost to operate a Gulfstream jet per year? And any opinion about the quality in general of Gulfstream jets?
    Last edited by angels355; 01-11-2011 at 04:54 AM.
    68,000 lbs of thrust..... "Excellent!" --Montgomery Burns, Simpsons tv show

  2. Default

    A GulfstreamV costs approx. $211,0000.00 per year if it's corporate owned. (based on ATC fees and fuel taxes)
    Gulfstream jets are considered in many circles to be the Rolls-Royce of corporate jets.
    The 4 and 5 sre very luxurious, and the cockpits are almost as luxurious as the cabin.

  3. #3

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    Get a Grumman Gulfstream I. Its a turbo prop

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronzo155 View Post
    A GulfstreamV costs approx. $211,0000.00 per year if it's corporate owned. (based on ATC fees and fuel taxes)
    Gulfstream jets are considered in many circles to be the Rolls-Royce of corporate jets.
    The 4 and 5 sre very luxurious, and the cockpits are almost as luxurious as the cabin.
    They only loo that way in pictures. Most corporate jets prior to the last few years have had pretty looking but overall very cheap interiors to keep weight down. Before anything else, the GIV is a high-performance aircraft. I've spent some time in ones customized for better interiors, and even then it's not really the interior appointments that makes you feel as if you're travelling in the lap of luxury, it's the fact that you're in a friggin' GIV.
    FAA Certified Flight Instructor, ATP/Commercial Pilot and Airframe/Powerplant mechanic CFI/CFII/MEII/ATP-MEL/A&P
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  5. #5

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    Thanks you guys, nice computer tig.

    When the GIV came out I thought it was completely unattainable, then I mentioned the GIV here a few years ago and someone assured me they were selling for at least $19 million USD at that time if I recall, still ridiculously expensive. $6.6 million seems like a bargain for such a plane. I still need a few more cereal box tops. There was a charter company on youtube that had a G2 or 3 I think, they spent half a million USD to refurbish the interior (looked nice) and paint the exterior. I tend to be hard on carpets, I'm an athlete and a deep thinker so while I'm deep in thought I run back and forth through the house and before I know it the carpet is suffering and I want hardwood floors. Photos of those luxurious jet interiors make me want to lay down protective plastic coverings for the floor and seats! Should I succeed in these dreams that is what I'll do.

    Any special responses to the Bombardier Global Express or Challenger series? They have amazing range, the Challengers almost look like ugly ducklings, but perhaps they have something special about them, wonder if they are hot sellers? The Challenger series has amazing range and of course the Global Express has a range of 5200 - 6200 NM range depending on the model. Are they high quality? Hot sellers? The most important thing in any purchase is whether it can be sold again quickly and at a high price. For example, Cadillacs depreciate dramatically and are difficult to sell, whereas a (used) Corvette maintains its' value a LITTLE better and sells faster. Better to own a Corvette than a Cadillac. Some people have money to throw away, for example one young lady said that her mother buys her Porsches, if she wrecks it her mother just buys another one. Another such debutante had two Porsches bought by her parents, but she doesn't know or want to know how to put gas in it. Not me, I am embarrassingly frugal, I hold onto my computer components. I built an emachine from scratch out of spare parts on Christmas and put it up for sale. Making an extra buck for Christmas is I think the best way to celebrate freedom, a free marketplace, and the spirit of Christmas, of course that's just my opinion. Any way, what I mean is that it is better to buy anything that is in high demand and can be sold again for a good price in a short amount of time. For example a King Air in my opinion is a solid value if bought used. A Lear 35 is also I think. I wonder if a Gulfstream is the same way? A Gulfstream 2 or 3 seems like a solid purchase, a Gulfstream 4 is so awesome it is a dream plane, but I wonder if it would depreciate greatly. For example if it were purchased at 6.6 million then depreciated to 5.6 million, that doesn't seem like much but when you count every penny in my opinion that would be devastating. A scenario I would like more is, perhaps an offer and purchase at $4 million, do your own work to correct mechanical problems and maintain it, then sell it for $7 million, for a net profit including operating costs and maintenance. Is that possible? I would probably have to discover gold first however!

    I wonder if it would be an economic necessity to go to school for two years and $16K USD to get A&P FAA certificates to keep the maintenance or overhaul costs to a minimum? They still sound expensive, one of the members here a few years ago said that a Lear 35 routinely seems to break a part that costs $45K. Like a Ferrari if you ding first gear in a 308 GTB/GTS the part (gear attached to the main transmission shaft) cost about $4,200 10 years ago. I told my Ferrari dealer friends, I finally found something that makes a Ferrari seem economical, the annual cost of ownership of a Learjet 35 or King Air ($100K and $50K USD/year).

    Not saying that I'm rich and famous, actually I lost my job some time ago, I just think big, work hard, and have perseverance. Some economic news can be a little shocking, for example there was a family owned airport that couldn't make ends meet, so they packed up, moved, and are digging for gold now. New series the Discovery Channel, all of them were in economic dire straights. Some of the photos from Detroit are shocking. But this is America (at least where I live) where you can accomplish anything. Right now I sell online, I have small successes, interspersed with major bleakness, but I am trying to modify my approach to improve my results. I have been the salesman I always knew I was, I have never lost a sale so far, but I need to expand, buy more products/supplies, and also try to find what would give me a greater yield. Where the rubber meets the road, I have found that through free commerce, a free marketplace, and pure capitalism equates to "Yes I can!", in a literal personal sense rather than some nebulous notion. As a scientist with business, security, banking, retail, law, accounting, etc, experience, I was turned down flat by Taco Time ("we only hire young people!"), and a video store (No I mean we only hire YOUNG students!!!), Costco ("You are not nearly qualified or even near the quality we need!"--They then hired a dozen very sexy women, with little training or education.) But when I sold my 1965 electric guitar for its' top value, I had bucks in my hand! Bought coffee, salmon, and watched a video from my own collection--haha! Things are still difficult, the economy is bleak, I get infrequent sales, and I had to take my antiques off the market temporarily because instead of getting any interest in their market value over the past four years, instead because of the economy I have gotten a lot of complaints because no one can afford them. I have good ideas for forward progress but they are very difficult to implement, then when up for sale, things take a very long time to sell. I am determined to succeed however. I am inspired for example by a very nice ordinary family man who has put up several videos about how he and his family have been vacationing around the world flying from place to place in a gorgeous charter Gulstream 4. I should watch his videos and see how he succeeded. Of course I have a long way to go. I have discovered two more advertising resources, heehee, I should watch some more Star Trek Ferrengi episodes and review the "Ferengi Rules of Acquisition"!

    Just curious does anyone have any suggestions as to what sells fast? Tig, are you still in ranching and how are you doing? Bruce Jenner sells business jets I wonder how he is doing? Would it be economically feasible in this market to buy a King Air at a low price, do a few repairs and maintenance on it then sell it for a profit? What do you think is the likely feasibility?

    I enjoy the friends I've made here and welcome your discussions.
    68,000 lbs of thrust..... "Excellent!" --Montgomery Burns, Simpsons tv show

  6. #6

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    I've had the opportunity to take some flights in the jump seat of a G-200 and a G-550. Very nice aircraft - new models when the company I used to work for acquired them.

    Learjets were never considered for purchase, though Bombardier, especially the Global Express, was in contention for the aircraft purchase which had to be able to fly US middle to Shanghai. With the Challenger used before it took two stops PANC and UHHH.

    I don't know a tremendous number of corporate flight dept members, but those I do know consider the Lears 40/45 or 60 to be comparable to the top end Citation Soverign. The marketing by Bombardier considers the Lear as a "Light to Mid-sized" jet.

    Gulfstream is considered Mid to Large size.

    Older model Lears do not have standing headroom for most people. The Lear 45 has less than 5 feet.

    An older Gulfstream II has 6 ft 1 in headroom, a Lear 35 built after 1995 when the cabin was redone has 4 ft 3 in headroom.

    Even the Lear 85 cabin is just 5.91 feet tall / 1.80M. I've also heard from many people the lav on the Lear 45 is miniscule, near impossible to use. The Lear 85 has 665 cu.ft. interior volume. The G-250 has 935 cu.ft. interior volume - a significantly larger aircraft.
    Hello Dave

    @ PawPaw's house - near KADS, Addison, Texas, USA

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by angels355 View Post
    the Challengers almost look like ugly ducklings, but perhaps they have something special about them, wonder if they are hot sellers?
    The Challengers look and feel big on the inside. Had several flights in those. One person I knew who bought half of a used Challenger was Terry Bradshaw. He said he felt 'cramped' in other aircraft brands, including a G-V - though at the time a G-V was completely out of his price range.

    Re your note about 'quality'

    There are two completely different aspects of quality.

    One is avionics and aircraft systems. All these aircraft are well supported by their builders. No one could ask for a better aircraft. If the records for a used aircraft are complete - you will know up front if the aircraft will be a hanger queen or a cherry.

    The second is interior. None of the aircraft manufactures actually delivers complete aircraft down to carpet, fabrics and such from their employees alone. There are companies whose entire focus is completing new bizjets, and rework of older ones. The quality of the interior varies greatly. Some are fantastic and last for years, some are all glitz and come apart fast.

    I saw the gripe list on the G-200 three weeks after we took delivery. Three minor mechanical/ aircraft items. 37 fit and finish items on the interior. Most such as unmatched woodgrain between the table and the fold down leaf were generated by executives on flights. They seemed to delight in finding tiny cosmetic 'issues'.

    At the time our Chief Pilot has been with the company only a few months, having been recruited from his previous job as a Gulfstream demo/ delivery pilot. He said such 'problems' were the source of the vast, vast majority of complaints and gripes.
    Hello Dave

    @ PawPaw's house - near KADS, Addison, Texas, USA

  8. #8
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    People get personal jets for the convenience; often the lack of immenities makes them seem less luxurious than first class airline travel.
    FAA Certified Flight Instructor, ATP/Commercial Pilot and Airframe/Powerplant mechanic CFI/CFII/MEII/ATP-MEL/A&P
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigisfat View Post
    People get personal jets for the convenience; often the lack of immenities makes them seem less luxurious than first class airline travel.
    Another story. Back several years ago the company CEO, his wife and daughter went to Australia for a 3 week trip which included many meetings with our division executives and key franchisees. They took one of the company CL-604 Challengers. The three of them, three pilots and a qualified mechanic. Seven people on a plane with a cockpit, a jump seat and ten seats. Two of which are fully reclining, and four of which are on a sofa which makes down into a bed.

    The spare pilot and mechanic also served as FA for any needs such as coffee, drinks, heating meals as needed. The entire flight crew handles the luggage. Not because our executives, including the CEO, are unwilling to help, but the flight crew wants it stowed a certain way, and to know how heavy it is.

    The CEO is quite capable of and often makes coffee for the himself and the pilots, gets his own soft drinks, heats his own meals in normal business flying. The aircraft does not carry booze on domestic flights, and has no special entertainment equipment. They did take a couple small portable DVD players on the trip.

    The flight went from home city east of the Mississippi to KSMF-PHKO-NSTU-YSSY outbound and YBTL-PKMJ-PKHO-KSMF-home city inbound. Most over water legs were 4 1/2 to 5 hours flying time. 8 1/2 to 9 hours flying each day with Kona as the overnight stop.

    The flight crew never told us the full story but the basic point which came out was that the CEO's wife refused to fly on any long distance flights on the company aircraft again. She went to Shanghai for a visit in mid-2009. He flew on the G-550, she flew first class on United from Chicago (ORD). She will take the company jet from the home city to their home in Palm Beach, or anywhere in the US, but he has to fly her first class commercial on any overseas flights.

    She absolutely refused to take part in an around the world flight in 2007.
    Hello Dave

    @ PawPaw's house - near KADS, Addison, Texas, USA

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    da-dreaming, if I had $100 million dollars, I would buy that nice 1977 Gulfstream II on the list for 695K and keep 99.3 million in my bank account
    K
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