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Thread: SIDS and STARS

  1. Default SIDS and STARS

    This is going to sound like a stupid question but how do you know which SID/ STAR to use when 'flying' in or out of an airport?. It's always been a mistery to me!!
    Thanks for any answers...

  2. #2

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    If you're talking real, ATC will tell you.
    Remember: Aviation is NOT an exact Science!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by adybear View Post
    .... how do you know which SID/ STAR to use when 'flying' in or out of an airport?.....
    Most (though there are exceptions) SID's and STAR's connect to airways.

    If you are approaching an airport along an airway, you would use the STAR that commences with a waypoint (isec, VOR, NDB etc) on your airway and terminates with the 'active' runway at your destination.

    SID's work the otherway around. i.e. they end at a waypoint on your departure airway.
    Regards

    Stuart

  4. Default

    tHANKS FOR THAT... NOW IT MAKES SENSE!!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by smundye View Post
    Most (though there are exceptions) SID's and STAR's connect to airways.

    If you are approaching an airport along an airway, you would use the STAR that commences with a waypoint (isec, VOR, NDB etc) on your airway and terminates with the 'active' runway at your destination.

    SID's work the otherway around. i.e. they end at a waypoint on your departure airway.
    STARs do not generally terminate at a runway. They terminate at a fix, often associated with a hold. See the CAMRYN FOUR STAR for KJFK which has the note From over SIE VORTAC via SIE R-049 and DPK R-221 to CAMRYN INT. Expect radar vecors to final approach fix in use.

    http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00610CAMRN.PDF

    SIDs start at an airfield and end at a fix. A particular SID can be associated with more than one runway. See the BETTE THREE SID for KJFK which applies to runways 4L/R, 13L/R, 22L/R, and 31L/R

    http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00610BETTE.PDF

  6. #6

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    This is one of the differences we have learned about in the years of using FS.

    In Europe most STARS do terminate at a specific runway. Different runways will have different STARS.

    In the US most STARS do not terminate at a specific runway but at a fix. Even those runway based like KLAX CIVET FIVE can be used for multiple runways.

    http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00237CIVET.PDF

    In the US it is quite common for a STAR to apply to more than one airport. Aircraft inbound for KDFW and KDAL can use the same STAR.

    Overall it appears the difference is based on distance and national borders. In the US, it is not uncommon for a STAR to extend 200-300-400 nm.

    Airlines fly KDFW-KATL using a SID and a STAR flightplan. Where the DALLAS EIGHT SID ends at the MEI VOR, the HONIE FIVE STAR begins.

    In Europe, STARS do not usually extend past national boundaries of the arrival airport, and thus are more closely focused on the late stages of the approach.

    The same thing applies to SID on the two sides of the pond.
    Hello Dave

    @ PawPaw's house - near KADS, Addison, Texas, USA

  7. #7
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    Adding:

    In Europe you may see common plates for SIDS and STARS for each departure and arrival direction in that common waypoints exist for each set of SIDS or STARs. The plate route lines have a different label sometimes associated with either the specific runway and/or route transition point.

    You first consider your departure or arrival direction and locate the one with the best route transition point. If a specific runway is part of the choices offered then that comes in to the second part of the decision.
    KMSP - Minnesota: Land of 10,000 Puddles
    Support Team

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReggieF5421 View Post
    This is one of the differences we have learned about in the years of using FS.

    In Europe most STARS do terminate at a specific runway. Different runways will have different STARS.

    In the US most STARS do not terminate at a specific runway but at a fix. Even those runway based like KLAX CIVET FIVE can be used for multiple runways.

    http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00237CIVET.PDF

    In the US it is quite common for a STAR to apply to more than one airport. Aircraft inbound for KDFW and KDAL can use the same STAR.

    Overall it appears the difference is based on distance and national borders. In the US, it is not uncommon for a STAR to extend 200-300-400 nm.

    Airlines fly KDFW-KATL using a SID and a STAR flightplan. Where the DALLAS EIGHT SID ends at the MEI VOR, the HONIE FIVE STAR begins.

    In Europe, STARS do not usually extend past national boundaries of the arrival airport, and thus are more closely focused on the late stages of the approach.

    The same thing applies to SID on the two sides of the pond.
    In the UK STARs do not terminate at a specific runway and apply to specific airports. They terminate at a hold. See the BIGGIN STAR for Heathrow (EGLL)

    http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...L_7-1-1_en.pdf

    An example of a SID is the COMPTON SID from Heathrow

    http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...GLL_6-1_en.pdf

    Also in the UK, if there are published SIDs for an airport ATC will not accept a flight plan that doesn't use one. I've read that in the US it's possible to file a flight plan that states No SIDs. That's not possible in the UK. One reason is that published SIDS are also Noise Preferential Routes. As a result, ATC will never, in general, divert an aircraft from a SID unless it has achieved a height of 4000 ft.
    Last edited by mgh; 10-26-2009 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #9

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    SID's and STAR's are published approach and departure routes. They are used to organize traffic into and out of terminal airspace.

    A "SID", or "Standard Instrument Departure" is pretty much up to the pilot, and the selected SID is filed as part of the flight plan route. Some airports may only have one or two SIDs that are used, whereas some airports can have dozens (KATL, for example). The choice of which SID to use depends on what route/airway you will be flying to your destination. Generally speaking, you choose a SID that joins the airway you need. Of course, you need to choose a SID that corresponds to the active runway - not just any ol' SID you come across!

    A "STAR", or "Standard Terminal ARrival" chart is pretty much the opposite of a SID, and are designed to bring you off and down the major airways into the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) at your destination airport. From the IAF, the individual ILS Chart is used. Again, the particular STAR chosen is up to the pilot, based on where you will be arriving from (what airway and from what direction), what runway(s) will *most likely* be in-use, and what type of aircraft (some SIDs and STARs are particular for different types of aircraft (jet, cargo, turbo-prop, military, etc.).

    When filing a flight plan, you would include the name of the SID and STAR along with the "fix" that is used to terminate the published procedure and your route. For example:

    AirTran flight 773 from Atlanta (KATL) to Las Vegas (KLAS) filed the following flight plan:

    RMBLN5.GAD ARG CNU GCK DVC.GRNPA1

    From KATL, the pilot chose the "RMBLN FIVE" SID, using the Gadston (GAD) VOR as the transition point from the SID to the airway. The airway utilized the VOR's ARG, CNU, GCK and DVC. To arrive in Las Vegas, the pilot chose the "GRANDPA ONE" arrival, which connects the airway to the STAR at the Dove Creek (DVC) VOR. The connection points are separated by a period in the flight plan. These connection points are referred to as "Transition" points, in pilot-speak. (Some SID/STAR's offer multiple choices for transition points... Honolulu's Molokai-four (MKK4) is a good example of multiple transitions available on a single SID).

    "Citris 773 to LA Center."
    "Citris 773?"
    "Citris 773, we'd like to change our arrival from Dove Creek to the Bryce Canyon transition."
    "Copy, 773, your change is approved. Follow the Grandpa One arrival with Bryce Canyon transition. Turn right, heading 290, direct Bryce Canyon."
    "Citris 773, 290, direct Bryce. Thank you."

    So... can the pilot choose which SID or START to use? Absolutely, although there may be situations where ATC will say "All aircraft departing west-bound shall use the XXXX departure and ZZZ transition.", and some SID/STAR's are for particular runways or particular aircraft.

    STAR's can also be specific to certain ILS approaches, and it isn't uncommon to change these, as weather conditions change at the destination after the flight plan is filed (called "oops" by pilots who didn't read the weather prog's correctly).

    Confused yet? Welcome to the world of High-altitude ILS!
    ------
    "Always do what you are afraid to do." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #10

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    STAR Arrivals are tailored to the airport and are also tailored to the Country. We can all agree that a STAR can organize traffic into the terminal airspace but the termination point of the STAR differs from airport to airport and Country to Country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wingding View Post
    SID's and STAR's are published approach and departure routes. They are used to organize traffic into and out of terminal airspace.

    snip-------

    A "STAR", or "Standard Terminal ARrival" chart is pretty much the opposite of a SID, and are designed to bring you off and down the major airways into the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) at your destination airport. From the IAF, the individual ILS Chart is used. Again, the particular STAR chosen is up to the pilot, based on where you will be arriving from (what airway and from what direction), what runway(s) will *most likely* be in-use, and what type of aircraft (some SIDs and STARs are particular for different types of aircraft (jet, cargo, turbo-prop, military, etc.).
    Wingding

    your post is very informative but I would like to add to it

    In the above statement it says the STAR leads you to the IAF. The example you use is the GRANDPA ONE arrival but regardless of what Arrival Transition the Pilot ask for (4 different ones) the STAR terminates at the LEMNZ Waypoint (maintaining 210 kts at 8000 ft.) and not at a ILS IAF. In the USA most STAR Arrivals Terminate somewhere around 30 to 60NM's from the IAF of the ILS.

    In FS it is then up to the User Pilot to option out of the Novice vectors to final and request from ATC a Terminal Transition to the ILS IAF. In the approach database (as per the cutoff date for the Jeppesen Approach charts) FS has embedded all the Terminal Transitions and holding patterns that lead us off the STAR and to the Localizer for various runways that are the active. Since the GRANDPA ONE arrival is the newer RNAV type STAR that all airports in the US are moving toward no Terminal Transition exist yet from that Arrival STAR.

    The sequence in FS (for the USA) is to file the SID and STAR as part of the actual Flight Plan. The Center controller will start your descent when you are 100 - 125 NM 's from the airport (distance also based on altitude). Since the STAR Arrival is part of your FP you are flying toward the airport on the STAR Arrival. At 60-80 NM's center is going to hand you off to approach. Approach is going to give you the active runway and start changing your headings for the Novice Vectors to Final. At this point in your FP you are still outside the "IF" (Initial Fix = a point in space) for any of the Terminal Transitions to the final approach course. Since ATC has now given us the runway information we can decline the Vectors to final and choose the correct Terminal Transition to the IAF for the active runway.

    ATC will clear you direct to the entrance point of the ILS Transition (30-50 NM's from the airport) and tell the Pilot to contact Tower when inbound on the localizer approach. Is there an advantage to taking a Terminal Transition over the default vectors to final in FS? Yes if you fly with AI Traffic. Requesting the Terminal Transition from ATC takes you out of the slotted number sequence assigned to your airplane and gives you the number 1 slot to the FAF (Final Approach Fix).

    My example above is for the USA flying into large airports like KATL, KJFK, KORD, KLAX, etc. ATC is also tailored slightly different for other Country's and STAR arrivals such as the RIVER, SUGOL, or ARTIP at EHAM which are flown a little different in FS. You can actually ask ATC for the RIVER STAR Arrival for EHAM which you cannot ask any airport in the USA for a STAR arrival (only Terminal arrivals off the STAR). Reggie eluted to this in his post above.

    The ATC system in FS is very complex regardless of what you might read. What confuses many is the fact they only get as far as the novice vectors to final which is a handholding ATC system in FS and that can be fustrating. From that point they are off and running to look for a different ATC system without ever exploring the Advance side of the default ATC system.

    When we see someome say this is what ATC did to me and someone else say this is what they did to me the first thing to know is what Country were you in. Does the Country have small boundary's or larger ones like Australia, USA, Canada, etc.. There is no room for wondering around when in Austria. Coming from the south and asking for the NDB KTI Transition for the Localizer runway 8 approach after a 4 hour flight can ruin your day. Venture slightly west in a turn back to the NDB and ATC will cancel your FP. Why? You left the Austria airspace.

    From that point what was the weather. What was the length of runway in use. What type plane (Jet vs turboprop vs multiengine prop vs single engine prop, etc.). What type approach such as precision or non-precision which by the way ATC uses 11 different ones (including a visual) which are also weather related. What runway start location did the Flight Plan end at for the destination airport. At the destination airport is the Xwind runways activated and if so how many of the runways are weight restricted runways as per ATC. What and where is the first navaid in the Flight Plan. What is the terrian around the airport (flat or mountains). Has the default approach coding in FS been brought up to date for any given airport. What altitude do you fly at (too high is just as bad as too low).

    All of these plus others play a part in the advance ATC system that many never think about when using the FS ATC system. FS ATC system honors both SID's and STAR's. ATC allows the Pilot to request the STAR (in some Country's) or transitions to the IAF of all the approaches coded in the database (use the GPS receiver to look at them).

    jim

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