Question on approach plates

**stubby2** · 03-29-2009, 08:28 PM

I've learned the basics of reading approach plates, but there is one item I do not understand. I was looking at the approach plate for KDBR (Bridgeport, Ct. ) ils for runway 6. The plate shows a 1 minute holding pattern near the final approach fix. Is this required like a procedure turn ? If so what is the reason ? Or is it simply used by air traffic control to stack planes as needed.

Henry

**barty** · 03-29-2009, 09:00 PM

That is a holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn. Like a procedure turn, it is a course reversal to be used to get you established on the inbound course in an orderly manner and within a protected area.

You would not fly the holding pattern if given radar vectors to the final approach course. However, if you were cleared for the full procedure, you would fly at least the leg(s) required to establish you on the final approach course inbound unless otherwise directed by ATC or you're having to lose some altitude. Occasionally there may be a note that states "Procedure turn or holding pattern NA for arrivals between xyz degrees", which basically means if you don't have to excecute a reversal if you are in a position to intercept the inbound course without having to do a reversal.

I'd also argue that even if it doesn't state that the procedure turn is NA, if you are already generally aligned with the final approach course, there is no need to fly a reversal. After all, you're already pointed in the right direction, which is the whole point of the procedure turn/holding pattern in the first place.

**Michael E.** · 03-29-2009, 11:08 PM

It's been awhile, but IIRC, for that procedure at KBDR a dashed pattern indicates that it is assigned by ATC after the miss.

**scott967** · 03-30-2009, 05:31 AM

My guess is for some reason FAA did not want aircraft flying outbound as far as would be the case with a procedure turn so they charted the hold instead.

scott s.
.

**barty** · 03-30-2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Michael E.

It's been awhile, but IIRC, for that procedure at KBDR a dashed pattern indicates that it is assigned by ATC after the miss.

The dashed hold simply indicates the missed approach hold. It is actually what you'd do if you had no specific instructions from ATC about how to fly the missed or were told specifically to fly the missed as charted. Many times if you are flying in the airspace served by an approach control, particularly if the airport is in fairly congested airspace, they will likely give you missed instructions that are different than what is depicted.

**Michael E.** · 03-30-2009, 09:32 AM

Thanks.

**stubby2** · 03-30-2009, 06:29 PM

That brings up another question. If there are no problems like obstructions which might cause the plane to be too high for a safe approach, if you can plot a course with a straight in course to the runway why do a procedure turn ?

Henry

**barty** · 03-30-2009, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by stubby2

That brings up another question. If there are no problems like obstructions which might cause the plane to be too high for a safe approach, if you can plot a course with a straight in course to the runway why do a procedure turn ?

Henry

Depending on how you interpret FAR 91.175(j) and AIM 5-4-9, it may or may not be required.

Current wording in the AIM seems to suggest that you only need fly one if a course reversal is required.

What causes much of debate is that the FAR by itself only prescribes when you must NOT fly a PT. It doesn't establish when you MUST. However, the last time the FAA legal counsel commented on it, they basically stated that when you don't meet one of the provisions of 91.175(j), you fly the reversal. Some might say that they put wording in there that doesn't exist.

RW, the best course of action is probably to ask the controller if he expects you to fly the reversal or not if you are cleared to a fix on the approach and are not given radar vectors to the final approach course. In flight sim, I'd just intercept the course and fly straight in, unless you just need to brush up on flying a holding pattern or procedure turn.

**RyanbATC** · 03-30-2009, 09:54 PM

I have a question for you instrument-rated pilots:

I'm a controller at KDLH and one of the satellite airports in our airspace has a GPS approach with a hold in solid black on the approach plate. I'm only in training with the radar part of things but there are different opinions from the controllers in the tower. Some assume the pilots will fly the hold before turning inbound, others believe the pilot will just fly the inbound course to the FAF and then so on....

What would you do?

Here's the plate:
http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0903/06083G3.PDF

**barty** · 03-30-2009, 10:30 PM

It depends on the approach clearance I'm given.

If I am being vectored to the final approach course between the IAF and FAF, then no, I would not fly the holding pattern. If I was cleared direct to BARUM and cleared for the approach, then I would fly the hold as a course reversal. However, as I explained earlier, I would only need fly the leg(s) needed to get established on the inbound course. I wouldn't need to fly a complete circuit unless I needed to lose altitude or instructed to do so by ATC.