Re: GMax Mirror option

[flattop]

I have been using the mirror option to create identical parts (wings, ailerons
etc) for an aircraft. The model looks fine in perspective view but on exporting

it to Fs2002 the polys are "inside out" - they are displaying the inside face
of the poly, not the outside.

I tried the flip normals option in GMax but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Is there another way? I would hate to have to redraw each item..

bones

bones,

Try adding a normals modifier to the affected geometry, instead of just
flipping or unifying them through the modify palette. While the methods appear
very similar in function in Gmax, there is a difference. Trust me. You may
have to isolate polys and elements of entities and apply the normals modifier
on an individual basis to get this problem fixed, but it will work. I have
found that mirroring geometry doesn't always work very well with exporting to
an FS model. In general, I don't deal with this issue as I create model
geometry in my drafting/design software, then import it into Gmax using the 3ds
and dxf import maxscripts. That is not to say that I haven't had to deal with
this situation. If you haven't already, check my previous posting for info
regarding this issue and others. The materials info should help you identify
problem geometry before exporting. FS will only render one side of the polys
that make up your parts. This side is defined by the direction of the face
normal. Gmax, however, doesn't care about normals quite as much in certain
situations, and while parts may look ok in Gmax, they won't appear correctly in
the FS model. In Gmax, the normal issue can be "solved" by the application of
a 2-sided material. This is not a true fix, even though Gmax displays the part
correctly. As a base rule, don't create or use materials that are defined as
2-sided. As I mentioned before FS doesn't handle the issue in this manner and
can produce undesired results. I'm pretty sure this posting will sound a bit
cryptic and vague, and I apologize for that. To be honest, with what I learned
from using 3D Studio/3DS Max over the past 6 years, I know that I could help
answer most of the issues posted here regarding Gmax with a few tutorials and
sample models, but my current situation (really f@#king bad) precludes me from
doing so. I hope that you (bones, Dennis and other readers) can get at least a
little help from this. Currently I can only hope that it does help, and wish
for things on my end to look up a bit in the near future. I try to post
helpful information, but with all the other crap constipating my brain, I'm not
even sure if it ends up making sense in my postings. This is probably more
than any of you wanted to know, but I felt an explanation might be in order.
Just keep working at it and you will succeed. I will try to help when I can,
but I feel as if my tank is almost on empty and I'm running on
fumes...sometimes life can royally suck....

Regards,
Dave

[frfsim]

What I'll be doing is culling from this and previous posts, and they'll end up
in the "Tips Section" at Freeflight Design....

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

To be honest, with what I learned

from using 3D Studio/3DS Max over the past 6 years, I know that I could help
answer most of the issues posted here regarding Gmax with a few tutorials and
sample models, but my current situation (really f@#king bad) precludes me from
doing so. I hope that you (bones, Dennis and other readers) can get at least a

little help from this. Currently I can only hope that it does help, and wish
for things on my end to look up a bit in the near future. I try to post
helpful information, but with all the other crap constipating my brain, I'm not

even sure if it ends up making sense in my postings. This is probably more
than any of you wanted to know, but I felt an explanation might be in order.
Just keep working at it and you will succeed. I will try to help when I can,
but I feel as if my tank is almost on empty and I'm running on
fumes...sometimes life can royally suck....

Regards,
Dave

[frfsim]

In addition to Dave's posting, I've read that cloning the part, then applying a
mirror modifier is better than using the mirror option from the tabs.

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

I have been using the mirror option to create identical parts (wings, ailerons
etc) for an aircraft. The model looks fine in perspective view but on exporting

it to Fs2002 the polys are "inside out" - they are displaying the inside face
of the poly, not the outside.

I tried the flip normals option in GMax but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Is there another way? I would hate to have to redraw each item..

bones

[enged]

In addition to Dave's posting, I've read that cloning the part, then applying a

mirror modifier is better than using the mirror option from the tabs.

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

I have been using the mirror option to create identical parts (wings, ailerons
etc) for an aircraft. The model looks fine in perspective view but on exporting

it to Fs2002 the polys are "inside out" - they are displaying the inside face
of the poly, not the outside.

I tried the flip normals option in GMax but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Is there another way? I would hate to have to redraw each item..

bones

Hello, All,
I concur with Felix's findings. I've cloned then mirrored a wing with no
problem at all. (Ha! Big deal. One wing. Ah, but I'm still learning...)
And thanks for your help, Dave. We all hope things come right.
-- Dennis S, FSEngEd@aol.com

[woodside]

In addition to Dave's posting, I've read that cloning the part, then applying a

mirror modifier is better than using the mirror option from the tabs.

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

I have been using the mirror option to create identical parts (wings, ailerons
etc) for an aircraft. The model looks fine in perspective view but on exporting

it to Fs2002 the polys are "inside out" - they are displaying the inside face
of the poly, not the outside.

I tried the flip normals option in GMax but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Is there another way? I would hate to have to redraw each item..

bones

Hello, All,
I concur with Felix's findings. I've cloned then mirrored a wing with no
problem at all. (Ha! Big deal. One wing. Ah, but I'm still learning...)
And thanks for your help, Dave. We all hope things come right.
-- Dennis S, FSEngEd@aol.com

Yes, worked for me too. Phew.

Thank you gentlemen. You don't know how much work you've just saved me..

bones

[woodside]

I have been using the mirror option to create identical parts (wings, ailerons
etc) for an aircraft. The model looks fine in perspective view but on exporting

it to Fs2002 the polys are "inside out" - they are displaying the inside face
of the poly, not the outside.

I tried the flip normals option in GMax but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Is there another way? I would hate to have to redraw each item..

bones

bones,

Try adding a normals modifier to the affected geometry, instead of just
flipping or unifying them through the modify palette. While the methods appear

very similar in function in Gmax, there is a difference. Trust me. You may
have to isolate polys and elements of entities and apply the normals modifier
on an individual basis to get this problem fixed, but it will work. I have
found that mirroring geometry doesn't always work very well with exporting to
an FS model. In general, I don't deal with this issue as I create model
geometry in my drafting/design software, then import it into Gmax using the 3ds

and dxf import maxscripts. That is not to say that I haven't had to deal with
this situation. If you haven't already, check my previous posting for info
regarding this issue and others. The materials info should help you identify
problem geometry before exporting. FS will only render one side of the polys
that make up your parts. This side is defined by the direction of the face
normal. Gmax, however, doesn't care about normals quite as much in certain
situations, and while parts may look ok in Gmax, they won't appear correctly in

the FS model. In Gmax, the normal issue can be "solved" by the application of
a 2-sided material. This is not a true fix, even though Gmax displays the part

correctly. As a base rule, don't create or use materials that are defined as
2-sided. As I mentioned before FS doesn't handle the issue in this manner and
can produce undesired results. I'm pretty sure this posting will sound a bit
cryptic and vague, and I apologize for that. To be honest, with what I learned

from using 3D Studio/3DS Max over the past 6 years, I know that I could help
answer most of the issues posted here regarding Gmax with a few tutorials and
sample models, but my current situation (really f@#king bad) precludes me from
doing so. I hope that you (bones, Dennis and other readers) can get at least a

little help from this. Currently I can only hope that it does help, and wish
for things on my end to look up a bit in the near future. I try to post
helpful information, but with all the other crap constipating my brain, I'm not

even sure if it ends up making sense in my postings. This is probably more
than any of you wanted to know, but I felt an explanation might be in order.
Just keep working at it and you will succeed. I will try to help when I can,
but I feel as if my tank is almost on empty and I'm running on
fumes...sometimes life can royally suck....

Regards,
Dave

"Just keep working away at it and you'll succeed".. Works in life too Dave -
given time.. Don't let it grind you down Captain..

bones

[flattop]

What I'll be doing is culling from this and previous posts, and they'll end up
in the "Tips Section" at Freeflight Design....

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

Felix,

Sounds like a great idea. I still haven't given up on the idea of some
tutorials and/or sample models. My idea was to create an overly simplistic
aircraft representation including most (if not all) of the animation variables,
lighting features, etc. I think that being able to see how everything fits
together in a visual sense would be quite helpful to the active group of Gmax
designers. That way they can tool around with it without screwing up their own
projects. I would also like to include information pertaining to some of the
"hot" issues in regards to using and abusing Gmax as well. I really hate to
think that someone out there may get discouraged with it and effectively give
up on using it to design aircraft, esp. when I feel that I could offer help. I
feel that I owe it to the dedicated people in the design forum, as many,
including yourself, have helped me out numerous times in the past (remember
AF99?). If it weren't for my 3DS experience and multitude of similarities
between the two applications, I suspect I would be quite frustrated as well.
Gmax is an extremely powerful tool, the depth of which is almost unfathomable.
Even given my experience, there are still areas of 3DS Max/Gmax which I haven't
fully realized. It's really easy to get lost in the software without knowing
it. If I can survive my current situation, I have full intentions of creating
something, and actually finishing my project plane too. If I do, I'm thinking
I'll just hand it off to you for posting on your site. I might even offer up
the Gmax source model for my project plane. To the best of my knowledge,
there's only one full source file currently out as public domain. And I
believe this is "warehoused" at your fine site. I'll let you know if can get
something together, though it's likely to be some time before I can.

I apologize for not replying to your email from a few months ago. I'm glad to
hear you liked the SBD image enough not to "chuck" it. I you are interested,
you can see more images of that project and many others (aircraft, etc.) at my
business web site - www.hfdd.com - although I can't say for sure how much
longer it will be there. I put together this site as a virtual portfolio to
showcase my work to prospective clients. It's mostly just images and
interactive media to demonstrate the variety and quality of work I am a capable
of doing. There are images pertaining to architectural design, mechanical
design and material handling engineering as well as some fun personal projects
I have created. You will find the aircraft images in the Misc. Image
Portfolio. You can even see some older "work-in-progress" images of my
Thunderstreak project, although the current version is much more attractive.
I've enhanced the geometry and greatly improved the textures. I'll eventually
have some high quality finished renderings of the project to post there. One
note about the site, if you visit, don't use the internet "back" command for
navigation. It won't work due to the way I coded the site. Looking at it now,
I probably should make mention of this somewhere on the site. Hindsight is
always 20/20. By the way, I recommend using one of the latest versions of MS
Internet Explorer to view it (make sure it's Java-enabled). While this isn't
an advertisment for Microsoft, every time Netscape puts out a new version,
something else on my site sees fit not to function correctly, and I'm getting
tired of having to rewrite the pages and/or create multiple version of content
to suit both browsers. After creating this site, I really feel for the folks
who do website programming and maintenance on a daily basis. The living hell
these people must go through to produce web content to be viewable by all. I
don't know why the jerks at Microsoft and Netscape can't call a truce. In my
opinion, if they really cared about the end users, as they claim they do, they
would do just that for the benefit of all of us. Seems to me that the industry
as a whole would be much further ahead. But I guess that's not how the
capitalism and the free market works. A bit utopian, I admit, but then again,
I've always been a bit of a dreamer.

Given the current economic situtation here in the US, my business looks as if
it might be going down for the count. Something I'm having a hard time dealing
with since I've put a lot of time, effort and money into trying to make it
successful. This is one of the many problems I'm dealing with presently. My
only hope is that I can get through this, keep the business going, keep my
house, and keep my sanity. My grandfather used to say "what doesn't kill you
will make you stronger". Jeez, I hope it doesn't go that far. I guess none of
us really know what the future holds. Base on recent personal and worldly
events, I'm not exactly sure if I want to know.

Anyway, onward and upward. And keep the oily side down, at least when
landing...

Regards,
Dave

[flattop]

Hello, All,
I concur with Felix's findings. I've cloned then mirrored a wing with no
problem at all. (Ha! Big deal. One wing. Ah, but I'm still learning...)
And thanks for your help, Dave. We all hope things come right.
-- Dennis S, FSEngEd@aol.com

You learn quickly, grasshopper.......next you will steal the stone from my
hand.....power is not in the fist, but in mind and spirit......

If I recall, Dennis, you have some issues of your own regarding fists and
keyboards....

I've killed a few myself, damn things have a mind of their own and they must
pay.

Thanks for the pep talk guys, I'm currently outsourcing for pep.....

Dave