Accountability -- or lack of it.

[thenet411]

I view these types of threads with a chuckle. While you are all fired up about what you see as a completely flawed product, I am using FSX w/ Acceleration with 100% stability. The only problem I ever had with FSX was slow frame rates in dense metro areas. My system (P4 3.6 Extreme, 3GB RAM, Nvidia 6800GT 256MB, XP) is largely responsible for that. Sure, when FSX was released the engine required a large amount of optimization but since SP2, large metro areas are still a bit slow (10-15 fps) they are no longer down in the single digits with all sliders still set the same as the day I installed FSX.

I have installed several add-ons (Countless Eaglesoft aircraft, Flight Deck 4) and I don't have problems with those either. Even after I installed Acceleration, everything continues work flawlessly. Several others I know with "non-standard" setups (three monitors, non-standard controllers from FlightLink, etc) aren't having problems either.

So, if there are users out there with no problems to speak of, doesn't it stand to reason that the majority of the complainers need look no further than their own systems? Do you really believe that a software product can be 100% compatible with every hardware/software combination in existance? To expect such is completely unrealistic and unreasonable.

Moral? Before you go spouting that a product is flawed, take a good look around. If there are others who are having absolutely no problems with FSX, there is a better than average chance that your system and/or troubleshooting skills are to blame.

[JSkorna]

"Meanwhile somebody in the ivory towers of Microsoft turns a deaf ear, and decides the easy way out is to simply turn its back on the product and get ready to dupe the public again with FS Eleven."

You can't even practice what you preach and yet we will hear about how threads get locked and deleted.

FS is a GAME. And some may go as far as to say a HOBBY. If you are not having FUN playing the GAME or participating in the HOBBY then WHY in the HECK do you participate?

Are you having fun yet?
Jim

http://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-...-sigbanner.jpg
http://www.hifisim.com/

[BOtten]

>"Meanwhile somebody in the ivory towers of Microsoft
>turns a deaf ear, and decides the easy way out is to simply
>turn its back on the product and get ready to dupe the public
>again with FS Eleven."
>
>You can't even practice what you preach and yet we will hear
>about how threads get locked and deleted.
>
>FS is a GAME. And some may go as far as to say a HOBBY. If you
>are not having FUN playing the GAME or participating in the
>HOBBY then WHY in the HECK do you participate?
>
>Are you having fun yet?
>Jim
>
>http://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-...-sigbanner.jpg
>http://www.hifisim.com/


Yep, I'm having lots of fun. I even have Active Sky X and Active X Graphics installed. My commentary was to point out that these forums are the place at which to make comments regarding problems, not to stifle them. It was also to mention, just in case the point was missed if someone only gave the post a cursory glance, that making comments in a forum isn't to provoke arguments amongst forum participants, but to air out legitimate complaints against companies ( such as Microsoft ) who apparently pay little attention to the angst their customers are feeling.
Locking threads and deleting messages with legitimate discourse is akin to the practice Microsoft has taken..it's simply turning their back on the problem in the hopes it will go away. Let's address the issues here for the betterment of flight simming, not simply ignore them.
What's hard to understand? Surely you, as support manager for HiFiSim know that problems your customers are having ( and I've never had a problem with my HiFiSim products...looking forward to XElemental and Active Sky Advanced actually ) need to be addressed or the company image will suffer. Microsoft should be as concerned, but they don't seem to address the problems all that well. SP1 seemed to help, SP2 appears to be a bit more troublesome judging by the posts here and elsewhere. That's all I meant by holding Microsoft accountable. They need to take some heed of the problems and fix them. But they say no more attempts will be made for FSX, instead they'll focus on FS Eleven and no backward compatibility is promised. Not a good thing if one is buying 3rd party addons if Microsoft is planning obsolescence into their sim.

As an aside...can you tell me which of the Active X Graphic Day Sky textures will give me the richest, most intense blue color?

Thanks!

[N99WB]

"There have been recent posts, and a HUGE amount of discussion, finger pointing, argument, etc"

Yes, by you and 2 and 1/2 others. One of whom doesn't even have ACCEL/SP2.

If your collective goal has been to chase off people who like to help
other people, congratulations you've just about done it.

[MongooseMike]

I sympathize with your call for accountability. It would be nice if somebody, somewhere would stand up and say, "we screwed up". But for those of us who have had and are having problems with this game, would it really accomplish anything? Would it fix the problems we're having? I've been a gamer since I bought my first pc about 25 years ago and I can't even remember the number of games that I have simply uninstalled and never went back to because of the wealth of problems or lack of quality that were associated with them. I have a game that I bought sitting on my shelf right now that is just so bad I can't play it. Of course that is completely my perspective. My point is, you, the consumers are accountable. I wont be buying the 360 until ALL of the bugs are gone. I learned that after burning through two xboxes in about three years. If a company puts out a flawed product, and continues to put out flawed products, don't buy! HOLD them accountable! Demand that the fixes be produced. Personally I don't believe that FSX is a flawed product. Just reading the huge numbers of people who are having a great time with it tells me that. (simple metrics }( )Including me. My problems with the game turned out to be my video card, not FSX. Drivers cured that. In the end, have just a little sympathy (just a little) for the developers and programmers who are trying to be everything for everybody with the polyglot of systems out there. THAT must be a nightmare.

[BOtten]

You'll need to re-read my post perhaps. Nowhere in there did I state I was having problems, and I have a very large number of addons to FSX. I do reviews, so there are no shortages of addons here. I also never stated I saw FSX as "a completely flawed product", and this may be the crux of the whole problem: people read far too much into a post and let their fertile minds take them beyond a posts real intent. My post merely questions why Microsoft shouldn't be held accountable for problems that users are having. Simply because SOME users aren't having them doesn't mean others who are should be ignored. And it also doesn't mean that Microsoft can be exonerated and we can point the blame at those having problems by blaming their systems or their troubleshooting skills. A very knowledgeable person here on the forum with well above average system and far above average troubleshooting skills recently posted of his troubles and it took John nearly 2 weeks, many posts, and 3 calls to Microsoft before an obvious FSX problem was identified and resolved.

I'm not taking an adversarial stance here. I've read a huge number of posts here and elsewhere on problems people have had with FSX and the Service Packs and Acceleration. I've seen lots of discussion on it all, and both sides have made valid points, yet it seems that any commentary taking Microsoft to task is met with some kind of hands-off policy, as if one cannot question the Monarch. They should be expected to try to resolve and implement fixes just like any other company, only I think they've become so big that they can simply ignore any outcry from the masses with total disregard. Yes, your system runs FSX and Acceleration, my system does too. I place an inordinate load upon it with the number of addon planes, graphic enhancers, ATC enhancements, scenery enhancements, traffic enhancements, etc. If my framerates drop to low double digits the sim still seems to run smooth, so I don't worry. I've had the one problem after installing new video drivers, but the new drivers werent' proclaimed to having been issued to resolve just this, so I'll wait it out.

Bottom line: there are people having problems who ask for help so they can get on with enjoying the sim. When we fail to hold the companies responsible for resolving peoples problems, we give them carte blanche to continue to ignore us. That's not good.

[BOtten]

>"There have been recent posts, and a HUGE amount of
>discussion, finger pointing, argument, etc"
>
>Yes, by you and 2 and 1/2 others. One of whom doesn't even
>have ACCEL/SP2.
>
>If your collective goal has been to chase off people who like
>to help
>other people, congratulations you've just about done it.
>


My finger pointing has been directed at Microsoft. Nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious and that is that some people are having trouble with Microsoft's products. I say obvious because all a cleverly astute individual has to do is look at the posts on forums here and elsewhere to see that they are. And there's nothing wrong with expecting Microsoft to resolve the issues even if it's only a small number of people having them. So if myself ( and I'm not having any problems whatsoever anymore... ) and 2 and 1/2 others are the vocal voices..so what? If the company I work for (a major drug company) chose to ignore complaints would it be ethical? And I'm not late to the ball here with 6 posts in the forums, I've been here a while, been with Flight Sim since FS3, both as a mere simmer and a contributor and reviewer, and a Scenery Hall of Fame member so I don't think I'm here trying to stir things up. In fact I recall saying in my post "merely exercising trying to determine who is accountable, not trying to grind an axe with others here who share the hobby". Nobody is letting me chase them off with my rhetoric.

[baddadnv]

/////////////

.

[thenet411]

Did I say "ignore" anywhere in my post? No. I merely suggested the majority of the complainers out there should look no further than their own systems. Why should Microsoft be held accountable because FSX "doesn't work" on SOME systems? Yes, there are a few issues that have been experienced by SOME users that were the fault of the programmers. And when those issues have been PROVEN to be the fault of Microsoft, they will be dealt with (assuming that they are experienced by enough users to make it worth Microsoft's while to fix them).

However, the majority of the problems I have seen posted here and elsewhere are clearly the fault of the user. How are we to know what software/hardware will or will not work with FSX until it's tried? Do you realy think Microsoft has a hidden lab somewhere that has every single hardware and software combination possible? I can assure you, they don't. In a perfect world, when a problem arises the strength of the community should be used to assist the user with the issue.

But therein lies the problem. When people begin their posts by saying things like "FSX sucks!" or "FSX is FLAWED!", it tends to lessen the credibility of the post and many users either ignore it or flame the poster.

Here is my bottom line: Yes, Microsoft can and should be held accountable for issues that have been proven to be faulty code. But when a user is using a video card they bought at a flea market with a capacitor that has been stressed to the point that it can no longer reliably supply the correct voltage (don't laugh, it's happened), Microsoft is not and should not be held accountable.

[JoeD]

>"Meanwhile somebody in the ivory towers of Microsoft
>turns a deaf ear, and decides the easy way out is to simply
>turn its back on the product and get ready to dupe the public
>again with FS Eleven."
>
>You can't even practice what you preach and yet we will hear
>about how threads get locked and deleted.
>
>FS is a GAME. And some may go as far as to say a HOBBY. If you
>are not having FUN playing the GAME or participating in the
>HOBBY then WHY in the HECK do you participate?
>
>Are you having fun yet?
>Jim
>
>http://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-...-sigbanner.jpg
>http://www.hifisim.com/

Yes, fun, this is supposed to be fun, right?
The trouble is, FSX has become so contrived, has so many feeling like BETA testing fools for a company that cares little about its product that FS has has ceased to be fun anymore.

Personally I'm also into gaming and my new high end sys will be put to good use on Crysis,UT3, etc.
However FS for the most part is on the back burner for now until such time that MS starts carring about the program again and does not just focus entirely on its profits. Then FS will be fun again!

I really feel for those who upgraded their sys and now realize that it was all in vain and they just got suckered by MS.

Yes, I know, Phil Taylor does seems to care. However, at times he does seem to be ruinning interference at the direction/blessing of MS's PR dept.

I have been around computers/programing since the days of the VIC-20/C-64 and I know BS when I see it!

Killing the messenger has become a substitute for accountability in today's perverted society. Those who care the most about flight simming and therefore dare complain about it are now branded enemies of the hobby. It is indeed a perverted society!

The very last thing the FS comunity needs is people cheering on MS' deceptive practices by shouting down those who oppose them.
MS has stated publicly that FSX is the best selling FS ever so, there is no danger of it being canceled. What direction it will take is largly in our hands. Speak up!

Finally, I am a firm believer in the proposition that says "if you are not part of the soluition, you are part of the problem."
We should not critisize someone who dares point out that the emperor is indeed naked! ;)