I don't mean to complain...

[Erick_Cantu]

Just thought I'd nitpick for a second, but, ah, the forum description is: "Technical forum for aircraft designers", not the "Can someone paint this aircraft in so and so livery" or "Can someone make me this aircraft" et c - would those not be more for the FS2002 and FS2004 forums?

Perhaps I am just out of line, in which case, deletion of this topic would be fine with me...:-)

-E


http://sgair.net/erick/SIGS/SIG_990.JPG

[FelixFFDS]

You're right, of course. Ideally, this should be a "technical" discussion only, but we'll always have the "aircraft/repaint wanted crowd who figure that the design forums are the best place to put up the "wants".

Should there be a "Aircraft/Scenery/Panels/Sounds Wanted" forum separate from the regular forums?

Felix/FFDS
Pegasus Aviation Design

[n4gix]

>Should there be a "Aircraft/Scenery/Panels/Sounds Wanted"
>forum separate from the regular
>forums?

I think a 'catch-all' forum would be more appropriate:

"FSAircraft/Whiners-Wankers-Leeches-Trolls" forum... :)

Bill
--
n4gix@attbi.com
http://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/BLeaming.jpg
http://catholic-hymns.com

[Erick_Cantu]

Sounds like a good idea!!!:-lol

:-lol

-E


http://sgair.net/erick/SIGS/SIG_990.JPG

[Erick_Cantu]

BUMP! Erick loses patience...

Sorry... ;)

-E

[link:sgair.net|http://sgair.net/erick/SIGS/SIG_990.JPG]

[FelixFFDS]

Send Nels an e-mail?

Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[Erick_Cantu]

?

-E

[link:sgair.net|http://sgair.net/erick/SIGS/SIG_990.JPG]

[Nels_Anderson]

Felix contacted me about having a separate forum for taking requests, but seeing the response here sort of confirms my feelings that such a forum is doomed to fail since designers simply don't want to take requests.

It seems like anyone making a request is automatically labeled a troll, whiner, etc. whether the request is legitimate or not. Are designers so opposed to taking requests that we should just simply delete such posts as soon as possible? Or is there a legitimate need to hook up designers/repainters with those people who have need of those services but don't have the skills themselves?

I don't mind opening new forums, but I'd like to have a feeling before doing so that the forum serves a need and has a chance to be used and successful.

[Erick_Cantu]

It's not that, actually I do take a lot of requests. Few of my aircraft were dreamed up by myself, I just think aircraft requests are more appropriate for the FS2002 and 2004 forums, not in what is supposed to be a technical forum.

I'll try to tone it down a bit if I've been too rude in the past.

-E

[link:sgair.net|http://sgair.net/erick/SIGS/SIG_990.JPG]

[FelixFFDS]

My concerns:

It provides requesters with a specific place to voice their wants.

It provides responders with a specific place to go to get ideas.

As designers, builders, repainters (in the aircraft design forum and others), these forums are put forth as places for the "technical discussion of the methods and design programs" .. For the most part, forum readers/posters want to read about - design trends, "how-to" questions, how to solve problems, get the animation just right, etc.

While some requesters make decent postings (which sometimes lead to interesting developments), others grate of the designer's nerves of the"

" - xxxx model sucks, I want a new one now... (regardless that xxxx model was built in FSFS for FS95 and they're trying it for FS2002.)"

" - I'm CEO of Baloney VA, and I will consider your request to be our fleet manager so you can submit a sample of your portfolio to bal@ney.com ..."

" - I want (insert list of 25 models) all with moving everything, DVC, reflective textures, including flexing brake lines and animated diahrretic flight attendants, by the end of the week (posted on a Wednesday)"

As with other forums, sometimes it's a slow day, but all in all a "Stuff wanted" ends up being well visited.

Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[benbo3001]

I dont want to sound rude, but whats it matter, it is the most appropriate place for this, an if the FS "Community" wants, it, chances are, a lot ofother people want the same aircraft, or same type of aircraft. I really like single engine sport aircraft, I dont know how to design GOOD aircraft, so really the only way to this is a request!

[FelixFFDS]

>I dont want to sound rude, but whats it matter, it is the
>most appropriate place for this, an if the FS "Community"
>wants, it, chances are, a lot ofother people want the same
>aircraft, or same type of aircraft. I really like single
>engine sport aircraft, I dont know how to design GOOD
>aircraft, so really the only way to this is a request!

Granted - and you have a valid point.

But if there is a SPECIFIC place for you to place your "aircraft wanted", anybody can go there and someone can either point you to where it may already be available, or take you up on either producing the model or repaint for you.


Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[benbo3001]

It would be nice to be able to request designs, but I am thinking that most designers may not even look there.

[FelixFFDS]

>It would be nice to be able to request designs, but I am
>thinking that most designers may not even look there.

My experience is that you'll get more "lurkers" than you think, plus people that are more likely to respond with additional questions and information!


Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[airhead]

Felix, Nels, everyone concerned:

I think Felix's suggestion for a separate forum is a rather good one. It doesn't clog the development forum with requests, allowing developers to find info more rapidly and ask technical questions without the need to wade through extra postings. As well, individuals wishing to request will have a specific place to do so. This way, developers who are irritated by requests don't have to look at them (or complain about them for that matter, which just creates more posts to wade through). I have seen some post recently (here and elsewhere) from developers actually asking if anyone had ideas on possible projects. This would give them a defined place to ask such questions and discuss with those having requests in greater depth, again, without clogging design forums. Sounds constructive to me.

Something I think we need to keep in mind here. While there are always a few bad apples, I think calling those making requests such things as whiners and the like is painting with a rather broad brush. Let's face the facts. Even given the proper tools, not everyone is born with the skills required or able to develop those skills effectively to create something useable, even for themselves much less for public consumption. Everyone is different, and we all have things that we excel at and things we don't. Maybe these individuals feel intimidated a bit by established developers, and feel that they could never do as good a job as someone with a few years of experience under their belt. Does that make them a bad person? I don't think so. Does it mean that they don't have the right to ask, albeit politely? Again, I don't think so. Maybe you should consider their requests as complements to your design abilities if you need an ego booster, as opposed to writing them off as annoying trolls and flaming them. I don't think many of those requesting deserve that type of treatment. Put yourself in their shoes, how would that make you feel? Not very good I suspect.

As a developer myself, I welcome requests. Depending on the size or number of projects I currently have on the burners, it may stop there and never progress past the suggestion stage. But at least it creates a flow of fresh ideas. If I ever manage to finish everything I'm working on now, I would welcome an area to fish around for new projects. Who knows, you might just find a really cool idea that you hadn't thought of yourself, unless of course you're the "all knowing, all seeing" type. If the latter is the case, I wouldn’t see why you would be participating in this forum or any other for that matter, you wouldn't need to.

As willing members of this community, I think we all have a responsibility to make the experience an educational, constructive and enjoyable one. While I understand this can be tough to do at times, if we as a collective don't put forth the extra effort, we all stand to lose. It is, after all, only what we make it....

That being said, I will stow my trusty soapbox for another day. :)

[EngEd]

Hello, All,
I'm getting my oar in the water ("wing in the air"?) a bit late here, but no matter:
As a builder as well as occasional plane-downloader, I seem to concur with almost every view expressed here. But I think a lot has to do with attitude. I've built several planes at other simmers' encouragement. I've never bothered when the request is less than gracious ("build a 'good' ..."). Do people think builders purposely set out to build other than "good" models?
Also, while I'm up on this little box, I'll make a suggestion to the plane requesters: Once you download something (for free), you might consider sending a brief e-mail of thanks to the builder. It's the principal feedback they get.
There. Now I'll get off this little box I seem to have mounted, before I fall and hurt myself.
Regards.
Dennis S

[CoolPilot06]

I'll admit it. Although I'm new to this forum, I did make a request for an aircraft not available to be painted today - I did not think it was a big deal. I'll be the first to admit I do not know a thing about painting aircraft - but I think it's safe to say neither does a large majority of the flight simulator pilot population. Otherwise, I'm sure there would be tons of aircraft available (even more than the thousands available today).
None the less, I'm sorry if this was the wrong forum to place a request - I figured my request fit the topic "Aircraft Design" I would agree that perhaps there should be a forum for VA managers / the general public to request projects that have not been done and where aircraft designers / painters can view their suggestions.

[Paul Golding]

LOL!!

That obviously came from the heart :-)

[PGibbs]

Well! I'm glad I did not read this thread before I added the post asking if anyone had considered the "Fairchild-Republic T-46A" as a plane for possible modelling. I hope my post did not offend any one, although I suspect that Bill Leaming and Erick Cantu who regard me as a 'whiner, *#####, leech, and oh yes, a troll' will think otherwise.

*it seems even the FlightSim computer finds Bill Leamings comment offencive.

I can't but help wonder why they allow their designs to be placed on FlightSims web site given their views on the people who download them. Or maybe they just want people who post to tell them how fantastic they are.

Many designers in their notes ask for feedback and possible new planes to consider (so I genuinely thought this would be the place to make a suggestion), and while not expecting any e-mails back, many have replied about what their latest project is. I wish I could design planes, I have tried and the result is rather like a five year olds drawing. Thus I have a great deal of admiration for those who can. It is a pity that just because I had the cheek to ask if anyone had thought of designing a particular plane, I am considered the scum of the earth.

Peter Gibbs

[FelixFFDS]

>Well! I'm glad I did not read this thread before I added the
>post asking if anyone had considered the "Fairchild-Republic
>T-46A" as a plane for possible modelling.


>It is a pity that just because I had the cheek to ask if anyone had
>thought of designing a particular plane, I am considered the
>scum of the earth.
>
>Peter Gibbs


Peter - the point of this subject is NOT to discourage requests,per se, but rather to see if a dedicated Forum for such requests can be set up so that this Design Forum can be focused on aircraft modelling, texturing and flight dynamics questions.

In the past, there have been people requesting models in a less than, shall we say, "friendly" mode. I refer to these posts as the "This model, made for FS95, is #####. It doesn't have any movuing parts, reflections, like the default 777 in FS9" It is THAT type of request (all too often made by newer flightsimmers that don't realize that what looked good and was state of the art five years ago, isn't quite up to current standards) that grates the nerves of the "regulars" and other designers.

What we're trying to promote is opening a separate forum so that all requests - new models, specific repaints, new scenery, etc. - can be placed. Repainters, designers, builders, etc., can go, lurk and respond either publicly or privately to the requests.

You are NOT considered the "scum of the earth" for requesting a particular model - especially when you ask for it in a pleasant manner.

There are other design forums where requests are specifically discouraged (Freeflight Design Shop Design Forum - the Forum Cops can be vicious there), and others where there is a specific "Aircraft Wanted" Forum that is well-attended.

One way around the "rule" is to (seriously) offer to repaint the T-46 model - if anyone can provide the model and textures. That way, you're not requesting a model, but proposing a "deisgn collaboration" (I've been spending too much time around contracts, I need a life).





Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[Qantas744Pilot]

Hey Guys
Sorry About This. I also posted a repaint request in this forum, i thought it was the best place. Sorry guys. Were is most appropriate Eric. Sorry Again.

Pete
Essex County Fire And Rescue

[airkevin]

Okay, so then it's okay to post my cargo airline texture problem here, huh? Because I posted that one in FS2002, so.....

[positiveg]

So will the request forum be built?

[bmoat]

Ok, I'm a little late, but here's my input. If the 'aircraft design forum' (that's the title I see at the top of the page...) isn't the correct place to put a request in for those who don't have the skills/time/patience to learn to design themselves, then I believe that a new forum for such requests is needed. Most people who see the 'FS2002' 'FS2004' forums believe that they would be for information more along the lines of 'How do I get better framerates?'
'How do I learn to navigate?', 'Which version of flight would work best for the system I have?' and such inquiries as this.

I have been a little (just a little...) disappointed by the tack that the designers in this forum seem to take. I have been learning, mostly by myself, every aspect of the flight simulators I can. I have been more than obliging with any requests ranging from 'Can you make this change in your scenery for me?' to 'How did you do that?',
possibly spending as much time teaching others as I do designing.

My opinion is this: The more people we can teach to design scenery, aircraft, utilities, etc. for the simulators, the more, and possibly better add-ons we all will have to enjoy.

Yes, it seems we DO need a request forum, so the designers who choose to be tight fisted with their skills, and information can read in their forum, and those willing to share with the flight community can read in theirs.

I feel that the original post was a little 'testy', and really served little purpose, except to bring to light the need for a new forum so we don't upset those who feel the requests are cluttering up theirs.

Also remember, if you don't like a posting, you can always click on the next one...

Sorry for going on.... and my sincere appoligies if I have offended anyone with my opinions, I seriously tried to make it as un-offensive as possible.

Brian Moat

[FelixFFDS]

Actually, I think you stated the case quite well.

It isn't so much that designers don't want to look at requests, etc., since many times the ideas are good, but, especially in the old forum format, there were a lot of "I'm opening a VA, and I need (insert list of 20 airplanes) done," or "this (plane made for FS95) is <insert euphemism for human organic waste>(in FS2002), I want this now!"

Of course, I'm exagerating, and most of the requests are quite nicely written, but the thrust of this Forum is supposed to be people helping people in the modelling (including flight dynamics and texturing) of flightsim aircraft.

Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design

[bmoat]

Felix,

I can see where the type of requests you refer to would be , f nothing else, obnoxious.

So, for once and all, this would be the correct forum to make such polite and reasonable requests? I'm guessing that is the point you made in your last sentence. I am still learning aircraft design, so
I am most likely going to have to ask a question or two, although I spend many hours trying to research or experiment my way into my own answers, I just want to be sure I'm in the right place.

The forums are a great place to pick up the little details that you can't find elsewhere, both through using the search engine, and as a last effort, asking those who know.

I hope to become more proficient at aircraft, perhaps then I can do some answering of questions, rather than having to ask them... :)

Thanks for your reply, and the excellent forums, a great tool for designers and learners alike!

Brian

[FelixFFDS]

Until such time as a separate forum is established for the "Aircraft/Scenery/Panels Wanted", the respective forums will continue to receive the "wanted" posts.

And Brian:

"I hope to become more proficient at aircraft, perhaps then I can do some answering of questions, rather than having to ask them... "

That's how "the experts" all started. After a while, you start realizing you can answer more questions than you ask.

Felix/[link:www.freeflightdesign.com|FFDS]
Pegasus Aviation Design