Help! Airline Career

[Josh10524]

Hi all, I have to write a report on my career of choice (airline pilot). I know there are a lot of current, former and aspiring airline pilots who know more than me, and I was wondering if you could answer a few of my questions:
What can I expect to get paid starting, and five or ten years into my career?
How stable is the airline industry as far as job security (not very with so many layoffs it seems.)
What could I expect to top out at as far as salary? does it vary a lot?
What education do I need to have a good chance at getting a job? are there some subjects I should study more than others (electives in high school now, classes in college)?
What are some of the rewards/downsides to an airline career?

all of these questions relate to the major airlines. I realize that's a lot of questions, and I appreciate any and all you can help me with.

Thank You!

[rankin3]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-03 AT 09:07PM (EST)[p]Hi,

While I'm no airline pilot I believe I can give you a little help. To start off the best way to become a career pilot is Uncle Sam... the military... let someone else pay for your thousands of jet hours which would cost a fortune any where else. Right I know your saying easier said than done becoming an F-18 jock is no walk in the park. Not to worry there are many other choices. You gotta go to a 4 year college for most airlines, a degree in aeronautical engineering couldn't hurt or an aviation degree (both of these you can get for free in the military BTW). As for the hours and the ratings...well if we ever see a rise in our economy maybe as few as 400 or 500 hours for a regional job but expect low pay and a long road to the major jobs. You'll need your PPL, IR, Commercial, and a MEL ticket. The airline will pick up your type rating if your hired. For the above ratings on your own private time expect to spend upwards of 20 grand, correct me if I'm wrong someone. There is one other option thats flight school there are quite a few in the country some are combined with 4 year colleges thats the key obviously. A good example is Emrey Riddle in Florida. These colleges sometimes have good relations with regional airlines and will back up your graduation with a job. Expensive still, yes!

Which all brings me back to the military you've got the Air Force and the Navy I'd stay away from the Army Air Core just my opinion. Work to get accepted into one of their colleges which is also no walk in the park, and then see where it leads you. Remember you have to pay back you debt to them with 4 years of service, I believe. Just don't tell them what your really going to do when that 4 years is up.

BTW you might think about taking some lessons at your local airport never to early to start. When your 17 you can become a PPL and at 16 you can solo.


EDIT: Sorry forgot about the pay question. Well if your a captain for a major airline expect your pay to be through the roof don't even ask it will blow your mind, usually sorry United guys (there taking some cuts for obvious reasons). With the regionals its not to bad, I talked to a US Express ERJ-145 FO and he is about 30 making 90,000 a year, or was should he have been layed off recently.

Wyatt Rankin
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[Josh10524]

I'm 15, I hope to start flight school this summer by the way...I don't have a lot of cash, but I put some in some hot property in arizona and I may have a lot more in a year or so. then mabye I'll be able to pursue it a bit more agressively.

[rankin3]

If your interested I know some who may be able to help you at the University of Arizona, they have just started a new flight school there. Give me a day or so to see if I can track down this phone number, but my understanding is you get all your ratings as you graduate including CFI and then your lined up for a job with Mesa Airlines (US Express). I dont know that much about this place though except the guy I talked to sounded as if he had been asleep on his desk and he went out of his way to give me a wealth of information. I only mention this because you mention Arizona and you could be close by. Tuition for the college and the flight school was like $35,000 a year which is god awful high I know, but your paying to fly about 300 hours too including some time in the ERJ.

Wyatt Rankin
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[MrChips]

What you said is true, but only to a point. You see, the guys who go straight into the regionals out of school are generally VERY well connected in the industry, and were probably top of their classes. In reality, most students should expect to find work instructing or flying charters in light twins...these jobs pay enough to keep you fed and sheltered and that's about it. Also, you may not even get a flying job immediately; the company may put you on floor sweeping duty for a year or so before you are even allowed to look at an airplane. If you do land that flying job, also be prepared to work like you have never worked before, as you will probably be doing other duties in addition to flying. Also, you will probably find a nasty surprise if you try to apply to a regional with 400-500 hours, that being the guys applying with 700-1000 hours, who will almost always be chosen ahead of you, unless, again, you know someone in the company and they do not.

Then come the majors. Right now, with how badly they are doing, they will generaly file your resume in the round cabinet unless you have a minimum of 5000 hours, and those 5000 must not all 172 time either. This may change, but it may be years before the majors fully recover, if they ever do. Now I may sound harsh, but I have lots of friends trying to get into the industry, and they are experiencing considerable difficulty doing so right now, due to the slump of the airlines. Don't go into the business expecting to rake in the big bucks from day one...if you want to do that, go be a politician or something like that.

Chips
CPL(A) Student

"I love the smell of avgas in the morning"

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[rankin3]

Don't go
>into the business expecting to
>rake in the big bucks
>from day one...if you want
>to do that, go be
>a politician or something like
>that.

Thats a good point considering the fact you may be a CFI for a couple years until you work up those hours to actually get hired. Most CFI's only rake in about $30 profit per hourly lesson if they do not on the plane.

[Khirsah13]

Starting at a regional you'll be making a pittance. Probably no more than $18,000 to $25,000 in your first year, and I'd say that estimate is on the high side. 5 to 10 years down the road? Who knows? The industry is so volatile right now would be nothing more than a wild guess.

I'd say, in terms of job security, very little, if any, exists at the majors right now. UAL, USAir, and AA are all in downward spirals. CAL might just make it. Southwest will make it. Not sure about NWA. ATA doesn't seem to have too many open wounds. But job security isn't what I see as being the biggest problem. The problem as I see it is getting a job. The job market for pilot is just incredibly saturated with very high time pilots. If you can GET a job at a major that isn't bleeding cash, you're in pretty good shape. The problem is that as of now your average applicant, maybe 3500 to 5000 hours TT, is competing with furloughed pilots who have 10,000 to 15,000 hours TT. You just aren't going to be competetive.

The regionals, on the other hand, seem to be doing somewhat well at this point in time. Several are still hiring, though again your competetive minimums are going to be much higher because of the saturated market.

As far as top salaries? Pre Sept 11, I believe UAL had the highest paid senior captains at something like $320,000 a year, though that didn't last long. I believe I heard, though don't quote me on it, that someone was still paying their senior captains something in the neighborhood of $275,000. I'd expect down the road for salaries to eventually start increasing, but that's again, imho, a ways off.

Education? Education at a competetive minimum, is going to be a Bachelor's degree. Doesn't have to be aviation. In fact, I'd go with a non-aviation degree because going with something else might give you a marketable degree should you not make it as a pilot. It all depends on how much you're willing to spend, though. Getting a non-aviation degree along with flight training on the side will probably cost you more.

-Khir
Private ASEL
"When logic and proportion
have fallen sloppy dead,
and the White Knight is talking backwards,
and the Red Queen's 'Off with her head!'
Remember what the dormouse said:
'Feed your head. Feed your head.'"
-Jefferson Airplane, White Rabbit

[AlaskaAV]

Josh
I would suggest you take special note of the post by Khir. His information is about as correct as you will get at this time. His suggestion of two majors or one major and aviation minor, would be well worth considering.
I might add that the high salaries being paid a year or so ago will probably not come back up for umpteen years. It is not that the flight crews do not deserve it, it is a case of financial ability to pay them. It comes out of passenger fares and at some point, people will just not be able to pay for air travel.

Ernie

[nwabri]

Hmmm.

Well, I work for a Major Airline...and I can tell you with the utmost certianty that there will probably be no major hiring for the majors for quite some time. If USAirways, or United, or even American liquidate (Chapter 7) There will be a massive amount of unemployed (This is over and beyond the 100,000 currently on the street) pilots, mechanics, ground workers, and others who are certainly more qualified, and have the expierence that a fresh kid out of school would have. And even though the regionals are hiring, if the pilots continue to get laid off, you will find some of the Jr. pilots taking these positions within the regionals. So there are a lot of things against starting out here.

I have been in the airline industry since 1995. Frankly, I have so little faith in it right now, I am working very hard to find a way out of it. I am not saying you shouldnt try, but it will be a very difficult industry to enter, and if you are like myself, you might find you want out fairly quickly.

Oh, and the person who mentioned the hours you need to get hired at a regional, from what I understand, a great deal of them require 1100 TT hours, 100 of them ME time...so 400-500 would be next to impossible to get hired at, considering most of them have higher minimum requirements...but good luck to ya!




Brian A. Neuman
Woodbury, MN
Email: nwabri@attbi.com
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[David1314]

I'll see what I can do to help you out here. I'm a student at purdue, where we have a large Professional Pilot program, so I think I may be able to offer lots of insite to this.

First and formost, your starting salary. This really shouldn't be to important to you if you really WANT to be a pilot, but it's nothing to impressive, flying a Beech 1900, or Jetstreem 31, you could expect to be taking home 15,000 a year, obviously you'd need a side job to support any real life on this kind of salary, but much of your entertainment would be taken up by your job, flying planes. I understand you'd probably be flying 3 days a week as your start off. And flipping through the book they had of alumni from the Purdue Pro Pilot Program, I saw many people who were flying large turbo-props, a few corporate pilots, and a few who had moved up to the 737s... all of them were 10 years or less graduated, so this will give you an idea of advancement. As far as tuition will run for something like this... I hate to say it, but it's about $20,000 a year (maybe more) so, it's nothing cheap, but it will almost guarentee you a job somewhere.

As for job security, I don't think that's anything you'll really need to worry about, all the Vietnam Pilots are just now retireing, and all the Gulf War pilots are moving up to the larger aircraft. In a few years, the economy will smooth out, and pilots will be in very high demand.

What salaries top out at vary quite a bit... I know for sure many airlines pay as high as $450,000 for Sr. Capt. on a 747, making 4 flights a day, to anywhere in the world your airline flies, and free vacations whenever you want.

As for rewards, you will get free travel with the airline, pretty much whenever and wherever you want, obviously hours in your log book are a reward, and you'll have all the fun associated with flying. Downsides are at the begining, but they make the end worth it... you'd probably be on call for your first few years, being awakened at all hours of the night to go fly a 4am flight to wherever, and you'd be subject to hub changes with maybe 2 months notice, and I'm not sure but I think the on call thing would be for like 18 days a month or so... so it really imposes on your life. If you get into being a pilot, finish it all the way through because it's all downhill from there... only gets easier, and easier it gets!

Anyway, as for different methods of training, there are about 4 I can think of, first is the airforce, free school, free flight, lot's of jet time, but requires a good highschool record. Second is a professional pilot program, very expencive, but looks good on paper (though you'd never know it from those FAR 141 flying skills). Third is good old fasioned FAR 61, which give you good one on one, and a better learning atmosphere, and you won't have to battle the entire class of pilots for scheduling time and such. Also, if you're like me, the planes you fly will not be in 100% condition all the time, and you'll learn a lot about the affect of problems on airworthyness (If it can go wrong on a plane, I think I've seen it before, or at least know what to look for). Last is the fastest way to do it, and will get you into big jets quick, but only in the right seat. Some airlines, Southwest I know has one, offer a flight school that's about 6 months long, day in day out hammering of flight into you, for 1500 hours to get you your ATP and put you in the right seat of a 737. I can't immagine this training being to good, nor advancing to PIC any time soon after this, but it'll get you in, making a small salary (relative to pilots), and flying really soon.

I hope all this is helpfull, and good luck on becoming a pilot.

David

[nwabri]

That is good information...

But I think you are being a bit over optomistic on the current state of the Airline industry...

With pilot furloughs in the thousands industry wide, and no end to the current misery, all the retirements you mention may or may not even bring the laid off pilots back to thier jobs...

It is good to be optomistic, but more important, be realistic.


Brian A. Neuman
Woodbury, MN
Email: nwabri@attbi.com
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[jcmissionary]

Another thing to consider is that there are aviation jobs outside of the airlines. Although they don't pay as well as a job with the majors, they can be just as rewarding. In my flight training, I've talked to a number of people in many different fields of aviation. When I first started my schooling (I'm now a sophomore majoring in Aviation Technology), I was dead set on getting an airline job. Now, seeing all the different fields that I can get into, I may not be heading down that road. Bush flying is looking interesting right now, as is corporate flight.

I guess the bottom line is to not limit yourself to just the airlines. There are plenty of other flying jobs out there. Good Luck!

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[jcmissionary]

My instrument ground instructor said things along the same lines today as well. He's a retired 734 captain for United, and even he's concerned with the state of the industry today. Not only for us as the ones looking to break into the industry, but also because US Air is looking to get released from it's contractual obligations, including making payments to it's pension plan. He's thinking that United might follow suit, cutting his pension from over $80,000 a year to only $35,000, the amount covered by the governement's pension insurance corporation. He's optimistic, but also realistic. He says that while the industry will recover, whether or not we'll be the ones to reap the benefits remains anyones guess.

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[AlaskaAV]

Very good point Brian.

It is not as if it were only one or two airlines in trouble, but almost all of them are. When that happens, financial institutions really back away from short term financing. This is not just in the US but almost world wide. Speaking from experience, what you read from a carrier press release is only what they want you to believe while trying to get their regular customers back. A flight school will always tell a prospective student there are lots of jobs down the road just to get the student to sign up.

As Brian said, be realistic and most important, be careful.

Ernie

[Captain_Slarty]

the pay question is simple !!!

as an airline pilot.. you get zillions of dollars a year and all the flight attendants you can eat... :-lol

:-roll

Joe.

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System - >
3gig Intel + .. Size DOES matter

[Khirsah13]

I've heard that even those mins are on the low side for regionals, Brian.

I keep hearing 2000 to 2500 tt, 500 to 1000 multi, and 100 to 500 turbine to be competetive.

Another thing to consider, for the original poster, is that very few are getting hired with just 250 hours and their commercial certificate, or fresh out of a college. Most are instructing for a couple years to build up enough total time in order to fly for a 135 outfit, then flying for the 135 outfit until they have enough multi and turbine time to get hired at a regional.

From the tone of your post I take it things aren't going too well at NWA, Brian?

-Khir
Private ASEL
"When logic and proportion
have fallen sloppy dead,
and the White Knight is talking backwards,
and the Red Queen's 'Off with her head!'
Remember what the dormouse said:
'Feed your head. Feed your head.'"
-Jefferson Airplane, White Rabbit

[nwabri]

Khir,

Hmmm...well...lets see. I would say that things are not going as well at NW as I would hope. I do believe that we are a bit better off then most of the other airlines out there (Not including Southwest, Jet Blue...etc...etc..). Our finances appear to be ok for the time being. However, due to the reductions in labor costs that were gained by US Airways and United in Bankruptcy court, Northwest wants us to follow suit and take significant cuts in our conttracts, in work rules and wages. The company wants our pilots to take 37% cut in thier costs, I have seen the proposal for our contract that is up now, and it is just ugly. And I am not sure I want to stick around to see what happens.

Wheather or not anyone believes it, the industry has changed since 9/11, if not by the attacks, the CEO's seem to be using it as a method to lean out the airlines. I can say it is not as glamerous as it used to be, and I am very doubtful it will ever return to the way it was pre 9-11, or even pre Gulf War I...and my optomisim is fading every day.


Brian A. Neuman
Woodbury, MN
Email: nwabri@attbi.com
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[rankin3]

Agreed on the hours Brian, in fact most airlines if they had it there way would want at least 3000 hours. However due to the fact sometimes pilots are actually needed (unlike now) FAA says hours can be as low as 300 or around there I believe, but there probably like most jobs filling a 1 to 50 ratio of applicants to actual positions.

Wyatt Rankin
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[jbdc9]

>With
>the regionals its not too
>bad, I talked to a
>US Express ERJ-145 FO and
>he is about 30 making
>90,000 a year, or was
>should he have been layed
>off recently.
>

I'm surprised nobody else caught this one... an ERJ FO that says he makes $90,000/year? Nope, don't think so. I just can't see that happening; most RJ captains don't even make that much! I think this dude was feeding you a nice load of BS.

John
B737 FO

[rankin3]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-03 AT 07:22PM (EST)[p]I'll take your word for it as I have no proof of him telling the truth.

Wyatt Rankin
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[Khirsah13]

Amen to that one, JC. I see all too often that people assume "professional pilot" = "Airline pilot".

Just a few of the careers for pilots:

The biggie obvious ones:
Airline pilot
Corporate pilot
Charter pilot

The not-so-obvious ones
Career flight instructor:
Think John and Martha King or Rod Machado for the big names in this field. There are quite a few people, some of the best pilots in the world, who make a career out of teaching people to fly. And if you play your cards right, there's a lot of money in this field, too. John and Martha King are rolling in cash. And they have more ratings than they know what to do with. They're both ATPs with DA-10, CE-500, and LR-JET type ratings. They hold CFI certificates in AMEL, ASEL, Helicopter, Instrument Airplane, Instrument Helicopter, Gyroplane, and Glider. And I believe they own their own Falcon 10.

Law Enforcement Pilot:
Some choose to make their pilots career as a helo pilot for a local police department, or a Cessna or King Air driver for a state police department. Just about every national law enforcement agency has a flight department. And to top it all off, you're generally a sworn law enforcement officer.

Cargo pilot:
This is a job that can get pretty exotic. I'm not talking about flying cargo for your big carriers like FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc, but rather smaller operators. I know one guy that flies cargo in a DC-3. This kind of flying generally doesn't pay very well, but there are a few stubborn, crazy pilots that absolutely love it and make a career out of it.

Ferry pilot:
These are the true crazies in aviation. These are the guys that land at your airport in a C340 that's shiny not because it's got a nice clearcoat job, but because there's more metal showing than paint. They land, smoke pouring out of one engine, the other engine cowling is black because it's literally covered in oil. They want you to top her off and put two cases of 15w-50 in their plane because after a nice 6 hours at the hotel across the street, they're gonna get an early start again at sunrise.

Ag pilot:
The cropdusters. The guys that spend most of their day flying at less than 100 ft AGL dropping chemicals on crops. This is a very hard area of aviation to break into. And again, most of these guys are pretty crazy by non-pilot standards. It can be a pretty lucrative business if you can get into it.

Aerial Firefighting:
Similiar to cropdusting, but they have more engines and instead of flying over crops they fly over (and sometimes through) raging forest fires. This is less of a career and more of a fly-when-needed type of job.

And many, many more.

-Khir
Private ASEL
"When logic and proportion
have fallen sloppy dead,
and the White Knight is talking backwards,
and the Red Queen's 'Off with her head!'
Remember what the dormouse said:
'Feed your head. Feed your head.'"
-Jefferson Airplane, White Rabbit

[Avstar113]

Yep.. If I decide not to go into Business & just shoot my luck for a career in Aviation. I'd probably start out with whatever makes money. Pipeline patrol, etc.. Just play it like 'Han Solo'.







Regards,

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