Sort-of-professional response

[benEggleston16]

Mathjis Kok, long time stalwart of the Aerosoft empire, one of the most repected add-on developers in the business has spoken!(all hail...)
He makes his position clear:http://asn.aerosoft.com/?page_id=3585
It's an excellent stance and reasoning

[greggerm]

I actually find Mathjis's (long version) comments a little disjointed and to a small degree, a bit intellectually dishonest.

He seems to rehash what has been long understood, that MS Flight has a different mission statement and a different audience.Although there will be no arguing about the target market for MS Flight, the fact remains that Microsoft has kept the door open to developers to continue making stellar addons for the product but under different distribution rules, and I think that has upset many of the flight sim development and distribution houses more than the target audience change.

MS Flight's new retail model effectively removes Aerosoft's ability to sell software direct to a customer, thus any MS Flight items Mathjis and friends develop would have part of their profits shaved off right from the start due to Microsoft getting their cut. Same goes for PMDG, Captain Sim, and other direct-sell developers. At the same time, developers who contracted with Aerosoft to distribute their products or have used the Flight1 wrapper will no longer need those services and will sell through the Microsoft storefront. Aerosoft gets whacked twice - once with their own items taking in less profit, and again by no longer being able to sell 3rd party items for Flight.

In addition, Aerosoft is now in bed with Laminar Research and X-Plane, distributing and dabbling in the development of that platform. Any kind words towards MS Flight would not be in character with their new business alignment.

Although he hits the nail on the head with the intended audience for MS Flight, I think he and many others are doing the community a disservice by so quickly dismissing the improvements which have been made at the "core" of the simulation platform in MS Flight. They could very easily be exploited by a larger scale successor to FSX. Whether or not Microsoft ever "flips that switch" remains to be seen. I'm certainly not holding my breath for that to ever happen, but far stranger things have happened lately.

-Greg

[ReggieF5421]

I agree his post is somewhat biased and self serving toward his described future business plans.

The key is right here:


I don’t like it, but I understand it. The ever increase in realism made the target group smaller and smaller and PC games are just not doing very well

The traditional MSFS fan, and traditional MSFS business, is an endangered species. It has been dying for a long time, because the fans want a $5,000 software product for $50.

It makes no business sense for MS to continue with the product line which was FS2004 and FSX.

[ricardo_NY1]

I agree with the guy.............I understand very well that he has financial interests in MSFS/FS, but there is nothing misleading about what he is saying. He's pretty much saying what most of us are.

The traditional MSFS fan and business is an endangered species (If you can call it that) because of stunts like this. You can't reinvent the community with something like "FLIGHT'. The types of people who have made the MSFS franchise successful for decades are not mysteriously dying off or being taken aboard UFO's by aliens.......everyone is still around. The problem is greed. The problem would not exist if negotiations between MS and some good developers would have succeeded. We would probably have seen a better direction. That is just one of the issues. If you honestly think Desktop Flight Simulation is dead, take a good look around at all the payware development and sales of hardware/panels/yokes, etc. Do you think people interested in desktop flight simulators and everyone who has that aspect of aviation in them and sits there piloting a 747 on a computer and enjoying it like they did back in the FS4 days is all of a sudden going to stop buying a flight simulator and disappearing with their wallet? Give me a good working flight simulator for $200 and I WILL buy it. I own an $1100+ metal detector for my other hobby, so why not? I own a $1000+ road bicycle, so why not? I'm honestly tired of the "Financial" death excuses. What hobby these days can you expect to drag for four years by spending $50 or $100? I'll tell you what, the next time around................if MS and some of the big shots of FS like Orbx, etc, etc, etc, etc get together and produce something like FLIGHT with everything included.........detailed airports, sceneries, utilities, aircraft and wrap it up into a package for $800.............I will buy it in an instant.

[loki]

The types of people who have made the MSFS franchise successful for decades are not mysteriously dying off or being taken aboard UFO's by aliens.......everyone is still around.

I don't think the issue is that the community is shrinking, but that it isn't growing very fast. And certainly not at the same rate as the amount of development effort required for both the base sim and add-ons for it. Many years ago high quality, for the time, add-ons could easily be made in someone's free time. Now both technology and user's expectations have grown to the point that it can take years. Sure there is an element of greed going on here, but internally I bet Microsoft didn't think the previous FS route was worth their investment. This doesn't mean they thought they would necessarily lose money, just that the return wouldn't be large enough for them (I've seen this before in other companies). And then someone else likely convinced them that the Flight route would be worth their time.

[ricardo_NY1]

I don't think the issue is that the community is shrinking, but that it isn't growing very fast. And certainly not at the same rate as the amount of development effort required for both the base sim and add-ons for it. Many years ago high quality, for the time, add-ons could easily be made in someone's free time. Now both technology and user's expectations have grown to the point that it can take years. Sure there is an element of greed going on here, but internally I bet Microsoft didn't think the previous FS route was worth their investment. This doesn't mean they thought they would necessarily lose money, just that the return wouldn't be large enough for them (I've seen this before in other companies). And then someone else likely convinced them that the Flight route would be worth their time.

I agree.......but it is questionable whether this direction will affect the growth of the community in a positive way or even reach the financial goals that put the software in this direction. Decisions are decisions and what's done is done. I personally would've been willing to pay what they feel is worth their time so long as it is not a ridiculous amount of money, which in itself is a matter of opinion and choice.

With that said, money is an issue where people are talking out the sides of their mouths. They're complaining about X-Plane's $80 price tag but wouldn't think twice about buying an SSD drive that they probably do not even need. Or a $300 computer case. That is a crock and it is backwards thinking for something you're going to use for years. These same people will probably be the ones to spend $100 on their DLC.........as opposed to telling MS to shove their DLC and charge that money for a full featured FLIGHT.

I think people are actually convinced that FLIGHT is a feature hollow sim with no capability. It is just as capable as FSX and has all the functionality of the ESP platform. That they decided to give us the kiddie user interface and put everything else in a headlock so no one can tinker with it is their way of securing their financial goals. As I've said, give them the message with you wallet. Those loyal to development of user/community content should not support this direction by purchasing anything until they entertain this audience.

[benEggleston16]

I agree his post is somewhat biased and self serving toward his described future business plans.

The traditional MSFS fan, and traditional MSFS business, is an endangered species. It has been dying for a long time, because the fans want a $5,000 software product for $50.

It makes no business sense for MS to continue with the product line which was FS2004 and FSX.

I thought it was more a lament for the loss of FS, the way he talked about FS being like the foundation of a great construction, the fascination of learning and a passion for aviation.

Yes, I understand you all think it's a ploy so it's not as clearly transparent he is just defending his business, but his thoughts are right, are they not?

Especially the last one, about 'Why are we so angry at MS?' <Would you be angry if anyone else created a product you didn't like, if Take on Helicopters was rubbish would you (the community as a whole, not you personally) moan for pages about how Bohemia Interactive didn't make it as good as it promised?>(Don't start a debate about the bit '<>')

And if he was 'getting in bed with X-Plane', what is wrong with that? For now, FSX is the superior sim but in 10 years, will you still be flying it (if anything at all?). I imagine you might think FLIGHT heralds the end of the era of civilian FSims (hence the you-might-not-be-flying-anything-at-all) but if you support Laminer Research (or alternative), X-Plane might one day be as good as FSX. Whatever you are flying in ten years, XP14, FLIGHT III, FLightGear 5.9 or, as we hope, MSFS12, if the MSFS fanbase dies, that is you. It will only go if you do, and if everyone keeps the spirit, it will never die. That really doesn't need to be said out loud but the way people talk here is as if they have no control over FS fans disappearing.

So basically, I wanted you to read it more for the feeling and 'lament'/requiem/pensive on the, if you like, 'meaning' of Flight sims, past and present.

PS. What do you mean simmers wanting $5,000 worth for $50 is destroying the industry and fanbase?
PPS. MSFS was never a great asset financially, for any of the past decade, it was more of a pet project (and of course it was special because of the longest running franchise etc. etc.) and it was only a matter of time before it was booted, the financial crash sped that up. Nothing to shoot, what sort of video game is that!

[vonBobo]

I think we are in an age of super video games now too. Folks pre-order titles weeks in advance, and the entire video game world kind of stands still for a couple of weeks and watches all the fanfare over the launch of these mega hits. FS doesn't get the same attention, but surely the dev costs are equal or even more for FS and MS must ask themselves "why not?". Someone at MS also creates a pie chart about losing revenue to the addon market, and next thing we know Flight is puked up.

[anaismith]

My grand-daughter loves it and thinks the flight model is especially good. She will be 3 in June.

[win98]

..

[torkermax]

..

[win98]

Cool it, or you are gone.

[alaskancrab]

And if he was 'getting in bed with X-Plane', what is wrong with that?


Nothing wrong with at all... but the fact is anything less than full disclosure of the fact you've invested money and manhours into X-plane and you are a competitor than it's dishonest journalism.

"And just like Windows itself, it pretty useless"

Btw Mathijs is not a developer, he's a salesman who manages the download store. And besides this is the same guy who during the development of the AirbusX on numerous occasions claimed the reason it was so dumbed down was because they were targgeting people who were completely drunk and could careless about SOP. Not it would take an engineering degree to figure out the FBW logic, but beer.

[angels355]

I thought Mathijs was too kind, open minded, and generous to a fault. What kind of provider takes away your buttons, and your flaps too?? Real life MS FS devotees have been screaming bloody murder.

I am not in a simulator crisis situation, I have enough licenses to install FSX and FS9 on roughly 20 computers (I have flown 10 FS's at the same time), and already have maybe 10 or more older FS installations. One long time FS customer asked the simple question, paraphrasing, "What is wrong with those people?" Honestly let's not be naive.

I was running through my errands all day today thinking about Flight and my Flight experience. It's just a product, marketed by a company that wants to make money. I produce products for sale all the time on a small scale, no big deal. Why is it a big deal what MS does? It seems like to us that we have lost FS, but at most companies that have produced flight simulators when they quit making the sim, they completely go out of business. MS however is a multibillion dollar company, with billions of dollars at their disposal, so they don't go out of business just because they no longer want to produce FS. Being objective we should not be upset by it.

Not only should we not be upset by it, we should consider this an opportunity for someone else to come along with a better simulator environment. 64 bit, fully multithreaded, DX11/12, 27,000 airports, encyclopedically correct, just how hard can that be??? I really don't think it is that hard at all. How many addon companies are there? They could form a consortium to build not something that equals FS9 or FSX, but could be a next generation simulator. 3rd party developers do everything much better, why can't they collaborate or otherwise produce a simulator that would leave MS FS in the dust?

Regarding MS, don't know what to say, we counted on them, I don't think they really like us FS devotees at all any more. In retail, retail workers and mangers, even owners, after some years of dealing with the public, some of them develop a real dislike for their own customers. It depends on the person of course, for example, I like people, like to meet more people. I'm told by a long time cashier in the US who grew up in Germany, when she visits Germany she finds the retailers over their bracingly rude and unfriendly. See what I mean? I'm just wondering if MS management simply doesn't like us any more? I know the Aces liked us, because they were enthusiasts, but what about higher management. FS is a famous long term franchise of extreme value, it would only be trashed with the approval of higher management. The addon developers we know like us, and have our same interests and enthusiasm, why don't they collaborate to build a new next generation simulator? One that uses the same buttons??

But what exactly IS all this uproar? It is often a human failing that we misinterpret certain things. MS might interpret all the uproar to mean, we don't like MS. Just the opposite, we do like MS, we're upset because they have turned their back on us and are walking away. We can't help that, but we have a keen interest in continuing and expanding our hobby. How about the consortium, or would Outerra work?

We jump into Flight and on the surface it seems like a simulator once you get past the guitar music. Today my coach loaned me a book of airport plates with full procedures. You flip it open and to a pilot or one who is studying, it makes sense. Here's a holding pattern, here are SID and STAR procedures, noise abatement procedures. With FSX and FS9 (maybe also FS8, 7, 6...) you can just boot them up and practice any of these things. In Flight, if you work hard you can earn a coconut bra for your head. It doesn't even have flaps. And they did this on purpose which is so dumbfounding. By the time they reinvent FS95, perhaps the addon community can collaborate on a real next gen simulator?

[loki]

It doesn't even have flaps. And they did this on purpose which is so dumbfounding.

The real world Icon A5 did not have flaps at the time the Flight version was developed. It was only very recently that the designers added flaps back into the design.

http://www.iconaircraft.com/news/a5-achieves-historic-safety-milestone.html

[alaskancrab]

angel: not quite sure I understand you.. FSX has no knowledge of SID's or STARS or noise abatement procedures... are you sure that's not something you imagined while Role Playing "pilot".?

I think the scary part here is that at least the Dungeons and Dragon people can turn it off... but then again some are convinced they are actually wizards just like some are convinced they can actually land a 737 :)

[ReggieF5421]

Despite what some folks have claimed - the Icon A5 has not been dumbed down.

The aircraft is purposely designed to resemble an auto cockpit, to be as simple and fool proof as possible.

When I get some extra cash, I fly a real world aircraft with minimal instrumentation. It is an LSA like the Icon. Built for daytime VFR only.

[angels355]

When I was 7 to 11 I was flying a real plane, one time however I let my father take the controls, in a rudimentary 1946 Funk with old style needle type instruments we flew VOR's in pitch blackness over the Rockies and Cascades.

Was I mistaken I didn't see any buttons for flaps in Flight? For aircraft that have flaps? Have to wait for the Stearman (thanks for the tip loki), my Win 8 dev prev doesn't recognise my new DVDRW drive so have to reboot into Linux to burn the setup program for Win 8 cons prev to a disk. :rolleyes: See desktop photo below. :cool:

How about the 3rd party developers forming a consortium?

PS: ac can provide funding via GTA! :D

121423

[loki]

Was I mistaken I didn't see any buttons for flaps in Flight? For aircraft that have flaps?

Flight supports flaps just fine. You just need to fly a plane that has them.

[angels355]

I'm still in the process of getting the Stearman, first got the Win 8 Consumer Preview setup download, burned to a disk w/ Linux, installing it now via a broadband download then simple install all automated and easy. It didn't like my Combat Flight Simulator 3, said some features might not work. I think I'll be ready shortly. Things have changed greatly since Win 98SE. When starting the install it says "Hang on a minute". Hang on a minute? Kind of informal for a powerful FSX computer destined to rule zee vurld! By the way, it looks like the future of computing will rely heavily on broadband. None of this would have been possible with my old dialup internet connection which downloaded on average at 5.5 kb/sec.

Meantime, people are really upset about Flight, or rather the lack of FSNext. We wouldn't give a hoot about Flight if we had FSNext and the promise of regular instalments of new editions of FS. MS doesn't listen much to our requests. So what can be done, can the 3rd party developers act together to produce their own FS?

Myself, I'm not upset, definitely disappointed however. I have FSX, FS9, and may be studying RW flight.

Can anything be done to turn this around, to get MS back to producing FS?

[jomni]

I would complain if we had FSnext today. That's because my FSX is now obsolete and I have invested lots of $$$ to it. At least with Flight my FSX still is my main game.

As I said before. During the time MS revealed the title Flight and indicated Windows Live, I already know it will be dumbed down. But the community still hoped it would be FSnext. Looks who's disappointed now.

[benEggleston16]

Btw Mathijs is not a developer, he's a salesman who manages the download store.
I meant Aerosoft were a great developer and company, and since he is a figurehead for them and in my opinion a great asset to the community, forum administrator (tens of thousands of posts,) makes articles about issues such as performance, speaks at many conventions and wrote this article with conservatism, it thought it worth directing you (everyone, not you persoanally) to. But if anyone else is thinking of discrediting and moaning about it on the grounds of it being biased, funnily enough that's already been posted so save your keyboard.

[benEggleston16]

When I was 7 to 11 I was flying a real plane, one time however I let my father take the controls, in a rudimentary 1946 Funk with old style needle type instruments we flew VOR's in pitch blackness over the Rockies and Cascades.

Was I mistaken I didn't see any buttons for flaps in Flight? For aircraft that have flaps? Have to wait for the Stearman (thanks for the tip loki), my Win 8 dev prev doesn't recognise my new DVDRW drive so have to reboot into Linux to burn the setup program for Win 8 cons prev to a disk. :rolleyes: See desktop photo below. :cool:

How about the 3rd party developers forming a consortium?

PS: ac can provide funding via GTA! :D

121423

Nice OS angels, your own photo? I would say that was Germany.
Hoever, I didn't know you were allowed to release previews of other people's in-dev products?

[alaskancrab]

PS: ac can provide funding via GTA! :D



Or you could just wait for GTAV to show up for GWFL... That'll probably get more MS funding as an exclusive title than the Flight project. Lot more potential to sell addons via DLC.

[angels355]

Nice OS angels, your own photo? I would say that was Germany.
However, I didn't know you were allowed to release previews of other people's in-dev products?

That is one of the stock Ubuntu desktop photos in the public domain. Finally got it configured right. And just in time, Win 8 betas both of them don't recognize my new dvdrw drive, had to use Linux to expedite the Win 8 cons prev install. Now I have to try to download the iso because the setup exe installed Win 8 cons prev next to Win 8 dev prev, darn, Linux to the rescue again! I might get Win 7 Win 8 is driving me bonkers. And might be better for backward compatibility because I have 6 FSX Gold, 4 or more FS9, and want to retain "backward compatibility" to them, considering we might be in for a looooong wait before the next flight simulator from any source.

I liked that article, but I thought he was too open minded and fair.

[angels355]

Or you could just wait for GTAV to show up for GWFL... That'll probably get more MS funding as an exclusive title than the Flight project. Lot more potential to sell addons via DLC.

I might haz to consider another career, an get a tire iron and steal hubcaps an work up from there...

[alaskancrab]

Definitely make more money than a pilot ;)

[angels355]

Definitely make more money than a pilot ;)

Wurd!

[JSkorna]

Back on topic please!