Will Failure Cause A Boxed Version & SDK?

[ricardo_NY1]

Just wanted to share a few opinions about Flight.......a) There are people who think it will succeed in the marketplace. I honestly think that concept is going to flop in a major way when they realize no one is interested in a PC remake of pilotwings and that their target audience (Certainly not us) is probably going to walk away after using Flight for a few hours, if that. And then b) I really do not believe or feel MS even has anything on the table besides what they've already mentioned regarding add-ons.
With that said, any logical mind who is familiar with the community and what most flight simmers, from the so called "Hardcore" (I would not apply that title to most here......I'd leave that to people lugging entire cockpit sections from an aircraft graveyard) to the casual flightsimmer want knows that the probable direction for Flight is not going to appeal to 98% of the people who would've gone out and spent the $50. Therefore, Flight will not only be a flop of sorts, but a financial loss. I think, although I am not sure, that the entire team who put Flight together must have been employed and the project funded for at least 19 months or so. How would they recover lost revenue? (If MS actually cares to recover it)

Put it in a box and sell it? I'd say that is a good idea, but most people already downloaded it for free and who would want to pay $50 for something that was once going around for free? But what if MS offered a boxed version that included an SDK or there was a promise of one? Only money will tell. I think that is what it's going to come to at one point or the other. I think MS was on the right track in connecting with existing developers and trying to work with them in order to have them create the content to sell through their venue............and that in my opinion would have worked, but I think they changed course not only on working with developers but also the audience and general purpose of the software. I don't think they could've placed any worst bets.

[fxsttcb]

I think it will have marginal to mediocre success initially. But, with their modular approach, if the DLC can, and does, offer some "hardcore" enhancements, then I think a lot of us will continue with it. Sure, what little info we have isn't very appetizing, but, I do know it has possibilities.
I seriously doubt an SDK is going to happen in the foreseeable future, but, ATC, Tubes, Airports at long distances, and other biggies are likely candidates for DLC.

If you spend more than a couple of hours a day, every day, on any Hobby, I'd call that "hardcore". Regardless of how in depth it is.

As far as outside contractors are concerned, we only know of a few developers that stated they didn't execute contracts with MS for Flight's development and DLC.
What do we know of the others that did? Not only the payware developers, but, the freeware developers that create some awesome addons too? NDA...

I doubt they would relegate it to retailer's shelves if it does flop. The cost of creating the DVD(s), Packaging, Quality Control etc. would be prohibitively expensive, IMO.
It would be easier, and cheaper, to just discount, or bundle, the DLC at GFWL Marketplace to generate sales.

I wish MS a lot of luck with Flight. Especially considering that success may lead to more in depth simming releases from them later. Leap Day is nearing...Don

[ReggieF5421]

But what if MS offered a boxed version that included an SDK or there was a promise of one?

No - that would be a waste of money. A boxed version distribution costs a lot of money, and how do they convince stores to carry a product which - "flopped".

Secondly, I don't think Flight was designed for addon user content, modification of sceneries, etc.

The big value of the SDK for FSX and previous versions of FS was that the aircraft and scenery system was designed for easily created addon user content. Not the big group payware products, but the casual user could create content.

The big time payware groups with professional developers who understand computer coding could create content for Flight now without an SDK. It is the current Flight business model, and distribution requirements which stop them.

[alaskancrab]

I doubt they would relegate it to retailer's shelves if it does flop. The cost of creating the DVD(s), Packaging, Quality Control etc. would be prohibitively expensive, IMO.
It would be easier, and cheaper, to just discount, or bundle, the DLC at GFWL Marketplace to generate sales.


Sounds like something they would do in madmax. Make discs distribute them, and then have everyone drive to the store to pick them up. MS should get a carbon offset credit for this.

[ricardo_NY1]

No - that would be a waste of money. A boxed version distribution costs a lot of money, and how do they convince stores to carry a product which - "flopped".

Secondly, I don't think Flight was designed for addon user content, modification of sceneries, etc.

The big value of the SDK for FSX and previous versions of FS was that the aircraft and scenery system was designed for easily created addon user content. Not the big group payware products, but the casual user could create content.

The big time payware groups with professional developers who understand computer coding could create content for Flight now without an SDK. It is the current Flight business model, and distribution requirements which stop them.

Why would a boxed version of a couple of DVD's cost a lot to distribute when this company is already distributing several software to stores worldwide? It would be a matter of sending it alongside. MS wouldn't be the ones burning them and packaging them. They'd outsource that to whoever is already producing their other boxed products. Making DVD's is dirt cheap folks. On the flopped part........include an SDK, promise an SDK or throw in some generic world scenery. No one goes in there and draws coastlines piece by piece or places each and every airport out of 25K by hand..........they have all the data and techniques to populate and generate it.

It's pretty obvious Flight was not designed for add-on user content.......only their content, but that is nothing more than closing everything relevant to our ability to create add-ons. Would you say that "Flight" is that much more advanced than FSX or Prepar3d that MS could not effectively release an SDK for the common folk to work with? I don't think so. Understanding computer coding doesn't mean you can deal with code that you do not have the source to. We don't have that with FSX or FS2004, simply the SDK which allows compilation.

You may get some functionality out of working with old SDK's, but I doubt you would be able to do anything worthwhile without a proper SDK for Flight.

Don..........that is something I have thought about. There is that possibility that MS may have struck a deal with other outfits we don't know about. The one thing that makes that idea go as soon as it came is the attitude over there. I honestly don't think they're that serious about it. I think at one point they were. I'll be waiting to see just like everyone else.

[mgh]

First, I suggest that if Flight fails Microsoft will abandon any sort of flying game for the foreseeable futures.

Second, stores will only give shelf-space to products that sell in significant numbers. If Flight fails as a free download, stores won 't waste shelf-space. on it.

[ricardo_NY1]

If Flight fails as a free download
It probably will fail as a free download. If it doesn't, great, but if it does, boxed with an SDK or generic world scenery with the promise of an SDK could be the last remaining way for it to actually make money. Wouldn't you buy it at the store if you knew an SDK was out and/or it included generic world scenery? Store shelves with software are really becoming something of the 90's as far as I can see. Even the biggest stores only have a small section with very little in the way of boxed software so they display like 20 copies of Windows 7 behind glass and use other fill type methods. I'm sure they can squeeze in a little room for Flight.

[alaskancrab]

Dynamically Licensed Content would have been a better term for FSX users I think. Then you guys might realize it's actually a content protection strategy, not some hocus pocus MS invented just for Flight.

[ricardo_NY1]

Dynamically Licensed Content would have been a better term for FSX users I think. Then you guys might realize it's actually a content protection strategy, not some hocus pocus MS invented just for Flight.
I think they used some serious hocus pocus in wrapping up the contents, that even without an SDK could've been manipulated, like texture files, .cfg files, etc. I tell you, X-Plane 10 is looking better with each passing day to me. I was looking at this video the other day and actually realized that if the developers simply shifted over to them, things could get really good.......


9f0TYMXCMfY

[Paxx]

Dynamically Licensed Content would have been a better term for FSX users I think. Then you guys might realize it's actually a content protection strategy, not some hocus pocus MS invented just for Flight.


Oh we know it is a content protection strategy, this has been one of the fears of this community for awhile now, please catch up with the argument. Call it what you like, the true colors will be on display soon enough. The "content", dynamically licensed or not, available in the store in the coming months will tell us everything. Coconut Bras are not "content".

[Ragtopjohnny]

I don't know if it would or wouldn't. The way that M$ has been about this, ignoring the serious simmer, I'd have to say they couldn't care less. My guess would be probably not on the boxed version. Shame. I owned every version since 98.

John Thuot II

[ViperPilot2]

Based on the various news interviews posted on various Forums, it looks as if Microsoft is banking heavily on the DLC and
'modular coverage' idea for Flight, which is understandable given the emphasis they have placed on Windows Live.

In the event that MSF doesn't gain the market projections that Mr. Howard alluded to in his interview, I don't think that
MS will release MSF in a retail, boxed version; it's very possible that they will simply walk away. Who knows?

It's evident that the whole situation with MSF has polarized the entire FS Community, to the extent that another major
FS site has completely shut down their Flight Forum, and will reboot said Forum once Flight is released on 2/29.

Alan

[vonBobo]

easily created addon user content. Not the big group payware products, but the casual user could create content.

You say that as if none of us spend hours updating cfgs and managing a maze of file garbage. haha! (but I understand within the context)

[angels355]

In my personal experience online business is excellent because there's no cost for all the brick and mortar expenses of a traditional business. But for common decent customer service MS should have the option of allowing us to order it on DVD, MS has mailed out software routinely for decades.

FS9 is still valid, it still looks really good, and for a more modern sim there is FSX, and X-Plane is getting better. We hardcore simmers (I have roughly 17,000 hours) are upset and can't understand MS. I understand Flight now, it is simply FS processed through the Game Studios diminished to an ordinary game. I wonder if they will ever speak to us directly to tell us if they are going to turn it around for our usage. So far I think they are bonkers, and I feel like I'm going to have to wait a long time before they come up with anything that interests me.

What has this done to my buying habits? I've already mentioned ad nauseum the serious problems I have with it, closed community addons, no SDK, no 25,000+ airports, no whole world, no ATC or jets, and management who is proud of this new direction. Thus far Flight's platform bores me, and I have been thinking of what i want to buy instead. Win 7 or 8, already have purchased six FSX Golds, already have roughly 4 or 5 FS9's, interested in buying the whole PMDG collection, the FSX X-15, wondering how to buy the Alphasim SR71, Level D 767 etc, payware King Air and Cessna 340, RealAir aircraft, are there payware Gulfstream 3, 4, 5, 6's? Battlefield 3, Grand Theft Auto. Want to build 1 or 2 more FSX computers. Start studying flight training materials. Flight doesn't have my attention, Mr Howard was so bold as to just tell us that all those ridiculous things we find important were taken out. How do they plan to recapture our interest?

I tried out the Flight VOR challenge, I misunderstood Bill's directions at first, sorry, but it was a fun exercise. Very easy, and I did it in extremely bad weather, very little visibility, in a FS9 777-200LR. I've flown around the world in 1 foot visibility, when will MS realize they made a mistake and rebuild FS? This is the chess club we want new chess sets not checkers!

"I'm a peacock I've gotta fly!" --movie "The Other Guys"

PS: X-Plane too.

[vonBobo]

X-Plane 10 is looking better with each passing day to me. I was looking at this video the other day and actually realized that if the developers simply shifted over to them, things could get really good.......

I love xplane! You are absolutely correct- it's the lack of dev support, and not the lack of any default features that is what has been keeping it back. I mean, who here is running default FSX installs anyway?

If Flight locks out the 3rd party devs from the walled garden, those devs are essentially forced to migrate to xplane. I expect it will happen quickly too, as being first will have obvious advantages. Even if MS does let in 3rd party content into the market, are they going to simply let everyone in? They have built a system to where only their content will be for sale, are they going to then turn around and spend more resources on certifying external content, rather than creating their own in house?

[raimondo2]

All hardcore simmers would like to fly flight - no question about that !

but if you like freeware addons - a variety of payware addons from your favorite developers (built as they are used to and not to ms order) - or either build your own addons - or fly from one side of the world to the other with continuos scenery beneath - im afraid from what we know at the moment flight is not going to be for you - becouse no sdk - and close architecture mean that you are shut down - you can not build the world either.

the alternatives - xplane - prepar3d - and for soaring flights fans the best soaring simulator: Condor !

it all come down to preference these days ! the choices are there and there is plenty of it !

[Ragtopjohnny]

Sadly I think the 500.00 price tag on prepar3d will keep most away, including myself.

John Thuot II

[fxsttcb]

Sadly I think the 500.00 price tag on prepar3d will keep most away, including myself.Ditto that. My Friend. Now wouldn't it be interesting if LM licensed their ESP updates back to MS? FSX/SP3! DLC at GFWL Marketplace!...Don

[alaskancrab]

You mean $10/month... the price of two games a year? Oh my no if you can't afford $10 a month they don't want you either.

[Ragtopjohnny]

You mean $10/month... the price of two games a year? Oh my no if you can't afford $10 a month they don't want you either.

I understand there may be an age difference here, but DUDE, you have to realize that there are many different walks of life on this forum. Take your petty insults else where if you can't learn to behave like an "adult". I think there should be age limitations on these forums or age minimum requirements for people to join.

I also own software more than what you will probably be able to afford saving up on your "allowance" unless you get your games from Mommy and Daddy.

I find your last remark greatly insulting, so you can if you please for the rest of us, take your patronage else where.

Don't want you either....WTF when does a 10 year old decide that. Grow up before posting again. :mad:

John Thuot II

[angels355]

John,

I think alaskancrab is a nice guy, might be a manager from Grand Theft Auto or other game company? I don't think he means any harm.

[Ragtopjohnny]

I remember reading something about his age --- I think he's just a kid. I never let anyone insult me in that manner before and won't start now.

That's a sensitive issue where I come from. Only my really good friends in the forum know what's going on right now, I take it he watches what toes he steps on.

John Thuot II

[alaskancrab]

yeah well sorry I'm tired of paying $80 for an aircraft when 90% of people just take it with the five finger discount. I don't have sympathy for the folks who don't care to invest in the products they use everyday. Hate to break it to you but despite what you thought when you were buying FSX, it was at most guarenteed to work for 90days. See if your state provides for any longer than that for an entertainment product. :)

[Ragtopjohnny]

Well, before you start insulting people over what they can or can't afford:

I own:

Bryce 7.1 which is 279.00
Daz Studio 4 Pro which is 449.00
Poser 8 which is 249.00
Hexagon 2.5 which is 149.00
Filter Forge 3 which is 149.00

Expenses for starting up my own company to run in the near future.

My FSX works just fine too, for the past what, 5 years or so since it came out? So you might be doing something wrong sonny.

So do think twice before you start to insult someone for how much the spend on products and get your house in order before posting here again.

Just the fact that you bring up the five fingered discount now makes me wonder where you really get the other software. Thief perhaps?

John Thuot II

[alaskancrab]

John,

I think alaskancrab is a nice guy, might be a manager from Grand Theft Auto or other game company? I don't think he means any harm.

Just a guy who doesn't think any product is perfect really. But if you have to read a manual for a game, it better be the SDK.

[Ragtopjohnny]

Dude, how old are you anyway? Isn't there a minimum age that people need to join these forums?

John Thuot II