Sent Msg to Microsoft

[boleyd]

Rather that posting here I sent a polite message to Microsoft, via Flight web site, with my strong concerns that this "appears" to be yet another children's game designed to get Daddy's wallet periodically plundered as the "team" releases new content.

[JSkorna]

Hi,

They really don't care, knew the flightsim crowd would have this reaction, and will remind you that we are not the target market.

[tigisfat]

Hi,

They really don't care, knew the flightsim crowd would have this reaction, and will remind you that we are not the target market.I agree with you mostly, but they have repeatedly 'claimed' that we are still the target demographic, therefore they wo'nt come out and say anything of the sort. They'll just keep lying.

[ricardo_NY1]

I recall quite a while ago when I sent them a message regarding features and other things that I personally (Probably reflects some of the community's ideas) would like to have seen in the next version of Flight Simulator. Considering what I've seen and heard, I would not waste my time giving them any feedback regarding the product. I'll leave it to the 14 year old XBox gamers or whatever their target audience is to troll them about prestige modes and the like. FS9 for the win.

[vonBobo]

I agree with you mostly, but they have repeatedly 'claimed' that we are still the target demographic, therefore they wo'nt come out and say anything of the sort. They'll just keep lying.

MS's target demographic is our money, not our wants.

Typical short sightedness of corporate America- praising pie charts instead of customers.

[tigisfat]

MS's target demographic is our money, not our wants.

Typical short sightedness of corporate America- praising pie charts instead of customers.The typical consumer assumes that everything corporate is evil. 99% of the time, what you want or need is indeed what makes a corporation money. If a corporation can make a lot of money AND have a happy customer base, they'll do it.

There were no meetings about 'screwing the sim guys'. I don't personally know anyone on the team, but to assume otherwise is stupid. I'm sure there were meetings about 'moving in another direction' though.

[alaskancrab]

What surprises me the most is people don't realize all those messages go to an outside PR firm and not Redmond where anyone can even act on it. Can't blame them with all this negativity it would be a huge distraction to the folks who obviously have deadlines.

[ricardo_NY1]

What surprises me the most is people don't realize all those messages go to an outside PR firm and not Redmond where anyone can even act on it. Can't blame them with all this negativity it would be a huge distraction to the folks who obviously have deadlines.
What good is meeting a deadline when no one is going to be waiting on a line to buy your product? Whether messages are handled by a company's own people or outside sources, it's in their best interest to read them! Even the freaking presidents read mail from us.

[vonBobo]

The typical consumer assumes that everything corporate is evil. 99% of the time, what you want or need is indeed what makes a corporation money. If a corporation can make a lot of money AND have a happy customer base, they'll do it.

There were no meetings about 'screwing the sim guys'. I don't personally know anyone on the team, but to assume otherwise is stupid. I'm sure there were meetings about 'moving in another direction' though.

For large corporations that have boards at the top, decisions are typically made to fleece money out of consumers, instead of designing products that the customers want. Sure, the product may at first glance, appear that it is what the people have been asking for, but a closer look usually reveals that it has been skewed and morphed into something more about money generating smoke and mirrors, rather than meeting needs.

Your statement is a bit off target from where I was headed. The decision to port the sim into a game is purely financial, and had nothing to do with the wants of the simmers. I think you were even eluding to that in your last statement- MS turned their backs on the fan base that they state is still their target audience.

[zswobbie1]

What a waste of energy. Microsoft decided to release a game that could appeal to the youngsters & those new to flying. No more, no less. I cannot get over the arrogance to even think of contacting MS & moaning that we have been let down, taken for a ride, not meeting our needs, whatever. Who the h--l do we think we are? We sit like beggars on street corners expecting Microsoft to cater to our whims. As a consumer, it is my choice to either buy into Flight, or not, to improve the realism of my FS9 & FSX, or not. Either with freeware or payware.

As I have said here before, We paid for Flight simulation 9 and/or X. That, as we all know,is just the basic engine. All our add-ons have faar superceded the basic game. I still say,wait & see.

I was also just thinking about what I said wether this is a game or a simulation. I was a bit bored so... Solitare is a card game, or is it a simulation of cards?
I do not see or hear anything about moaning to MS that they have let us down by not releasing a better/upgraded/faster version. Sorry guys, I was very bored when I thought of this & it is only tongue in cheek!

We have choices, buy the thing, or don't. And also, I surpose, to bitch, moan & write letters when we feel that we have been let down.

[vonBobo]

What a waste of energy. Microsoft decided to release a game that could appeal to the youngsters & those new to flying. No more, no less.

Even though that is what MS wants you to believe, your statement simply isn't true. (or, at the very least, your statement is only a small part of the actual motivation)

This marketing lie is why all of these folks are left speculating and harumphing about. It has left people asking "what is really going on?".

This story isn't so much about being double crossed by MS as all of us are flying our current sims happily. And sadly, I wish MS didn't have the need to lie to us- in the end, we are all going to buy or not buy Flight on whether or not we like the product, and the rest of the marketing is unnecessary. Then again, marketing wouldn't exist without the spin, so I can't blame them too much there either.



Would the backlash have been any worse if MS admitted that the world has moved to consoles and tablets, and they needed to put their software within the more relevant platforms? (side note- did you know Xplane can run on ipads? I even run it on my android phone.)

[loki]

Would the backlash have been any worse if MS admitted that the world has moved to consoles and tablets, and they needed to put their software within the more relevant platforms?

PC gaming is still very relevant, and is a multi-billion dollar industry. There are things that can be done on current PCs that one cannot do on a console right now, as Battlefield 3 shows. Depending on who you talk to, PC gaming could overtake consoles over the next year or two. This is the sort of thing that will have lead to Microsoft committing to a new flight sim as well as a new Age of Empires game.

http://www.gamersnexus.net/news-industry/610-pc-games-revenue-outmatch-all-consoles-combined

[tigisfat]

For large corporations that have boards at the top, decisions are typically made to fleece money out of consumers, instead of designing products that the customers want. Sure, the product may at first glance, appear that it is what the people have been asking for, but a closer look usually reveals that it has been skewed and morphed into something more about money generating smoke and mirrors, rather than meeting needs.

I've been a board member, officer and owner at corporations. That's a very negative assumption, and it's way too general to be fair. If the profits are all the same, any business would choose to have positive relations over ones filled with litigation. If you want to refer to it as numbers only, then think of positive relations as part of the business model.

[vonBobo]

Do you honestly believe MS made these moves in the best interest of their current customer base, or are you just nitpicking my exagerations?

[fxsttcb]

Do you honestly believe MS made these moves in the best interest of their current customer baseNo. They chose a NEW direction with Flight, targeting a NEW, hopefully expanded audience, not just "their current customer base".

As a member of R&D with various Automotive/Bus/Truck suppliers, I can guarantee you, that our boards were responsive to the customers desire's. Especially with the more generic components used by many mfgs. The business that doesn't respond by covering wants, and expand on those needs with "Value Added" doesn't last long.

Like I've stated previously in this forum; there are plenty of FS fans that just wanna "Jump in and FLY". No procedures to follow. No navigation necessary.
Those folks will probably be drawn to Flight's more basic format. If "Value Added" isn't there they'll stick with their older sims.

If the "Free Flight" mode has an ATC, Navigation Aids, Fllight planner, and looks that much better than FSX, I may climb aboard.
That is IF the additional aircraft and scenery offered in the GFWL Marketplace are of FSX's good payware quality.
All of the shots I've seen of the Stearman look great, but, with a sim, beauty is way more than skin deep.
Systems, fully working and clickable instrumentation, accurate flight dynamics and modeling, will be necessary to entice me into the $$ realm of Flight.
Otherwise I'll play with the freebie and spend my coin enhancing FS9 and FSX as I see fit...Don

[boleyd]

I sent the message as "tongue-in-cheek". It was just a no cost way of making me feel better. It was sent with the same objective (feel better) as the people who post here. Babble and moan. The exact same theme about the product expressed 100+ ways. I will stick additional pins in my Microsoft Voodoo Doll once the product becomes available unless ------. Or, maybe I will burn it slowly on my grill after the proper secret chants. That seems like a better approach than posting on a forum that has no effect on the product but does serve as a moderately civil rubber room. Have to sign, the guards are here again with that funny coat.

[royalone]

Rather that posting here I sent a polite message to Microsoft, via Flight web site, with my strong concerns that this "appears" to be yet another children's game designed to get Daddy's wallet periodically plundered as the "team" releases new content.

It would seem the everyone had hi expectations from Microsoft Flight. Well it's time to wake up and smell the coffee, it's not out. Not one solid date has been confirmed. And we now know it is a GAME. Yet we beat ourselves up in post after post on this topic. Put the flag at half mast and move on. Now use your passion about aviation to FLY...................

[fxsttcb]

And we now know it is a GAME.We know it has a "Gaming Mode". Flight's developers and their marketing team are focusing on that. From what we have seen in CES videos and on Flight's website we also know that there is a "Free Flight" mode. The Large by Huge question is; how in depth will "Free Flight" be?
It very well could be that my initial thoughts, and other's that think like me, jumped the gun with "lets bash Flight" posts and threads.
None of us have seen if MS is actually going to fullfil their promise to the hardcore simmer.
Until Flight proves to be unworthy, I'm gonna give 'em the benefit of the doubt. All we can do is hope that MS delivers on their promises...this time...Don

[tigisfat]

Do you honestly believe MS made these moves in the best interest of their current customer base, or are you just nitpicking my exagerations?Entirely the latter.

I am 100% positive they didn't make any effort to make us happy, but they would like it if we were and they got our money somehow anyway. I don't think this was an effort to cast off the sim crowd, I think this product is merely the result of absolute stupidity. They'll pay for it when they are all out of jobs. It's been proven many times with many different software titles that there is no market for casual airplane titles.

[rudyjo]

Should microsoft have come out with "Flight" to target people who like to play games, or should they have came out with FS-11 for those who have enjoyed it as a simulator for many years? The answer is both. FS-11 would have kept the solid customer base happy. MS Flight would maybe bring thousands of people into the world of flight simulators if they really enjoyed flying a stearman around Hawaii and then wanted to advance into flying the world in
a 747. When companies like A2A are allowed to make their accusim models as payware for MS Flight, then I will be interested in it.

[fxsttcb]

Should microsoft have come out with "Flight" to target people who like to play games, or should they have came out with FS-11 for those who have enjoyed it as a simulator for many years?I don't see why it couldn't have been both.
Adding the "Game" elements to a high definition sim, similar to the existing Tutorials and Missions modes would, IMO, have actually been the best of both.
When in any mode they could have made the GFWL link active and the GFWL Marketplace and Multiplayer would be available to enhance the sim.
Not knowing how in depth the DLC aircraft, scenery, atmosphere, and flight dynamics will be, we can't tell if that scenario will exist within Flight itself.

The GFWL Marketplace could invite payware developers to offer their wares, for a small fee, and provide them certification, similar to the WHQL they do for hardware.
Keeping the enhancements only to themselves is probably going to make Flight a passing fancy. As they say, "Variety is the Spice" ...Don

[avow555]

I have sent a message to MS Flight team as well expressing my disappointment with the way they are releasing the latest version of FS.

If they were running a huge server which had 1000's of people able to login and fly simultaneously (MMO style) then I wouldn't mind paying a subscription but this pay for Content crap that is beginning to impact on our daily lives is a step too far...

[alaskancrab]

If they were running a huge server which had 1000's of people able to login and fly simultaneously (MMO style) then I wouldn't mind paying a subscription but this pay for Content crap that is beginning to impact on our daily lives is a step too far...

Well MS runs a lot of servers so scale is not an issue. When you say you won't pay for content do you mean at any price? DLC prices are lower than the current FSX prices. You wouldn't get away with charging $40 for an airport thats for sure.

[Paxx]

...
If they were running a huge server which had 1000's of people able to login and fly simultaneously (MMO style) then I wouldn't mind paying a subscription but this pay for Content crap that is beginning to impact on our daily lives is a step too far...
Well MS runs a lot of servers so scale is not an issue.
I seriously doubt Microsoft will be having thousands of Flight gamers on one server in a typical mmo scenario. Microsoft has to know their Flight engine could do no such thing. Frankly your statement tells me you pretty much know nothing about typical mmo server/client setups. Microsoft is equally clueless in the mmo arena, so you are in good company there. Coincidence?

If Flight is going to be Microsoft's next title dipping its toes in the mmo market, it seems to me that kind of news might have been announced by now. Calling it "Live" doesn't count.


When you say you won't pay for content do you mean at any price? DLC prices are lower than the current FSX prices.
Got a link for this? Beyond the trinkets announced for signing up with GFWL there have been no announcements of what will be available in the Flight Store (the rest of the Hawaiian Islands aside :rolleyes: ) when released or in the future. Its a secret evidently. A secret apparently you know all about. Tell us more.


You wouldn't get away with charging $40 for an airport thats for sure.
Heh. Don't bet your cookies on that wishful thinking. Microsoft see's others doing the same for a 6 year old title (8 year old if you count FS9), why would they think they could not do it? If they can, they will (try), and if the quality and fidelity is there they could. The present market tells us this. It is not rocket science.

[alaskancrab]

Really and VATSIM/VAO can have 1000's of people on one server yet MS can't? Good one there shows that you really know your stuff. Can you please explain to me the difference between gamespy and xboxlive.... other than the 66 million users that xbox live has.

Also if you know so much about client/server development can you explain how to connect to the microsoft WCF weather service on Azure?