Somewhat Disturbed on This in the "Fact Sheet"

[Ragtopjohnny]

Who else wonders what they mean by this?

Pricing: The starter pack is free to play and includes the Icon A5 and the Big Island of Hawaii. Pricing for game add-ons will vary.

Does this mean that that's all that comes with the Starter pack at first? Now I definitely know I'm sticking with FSX! We didn't have to pay extra for more terrain and more aircraft. Only if we bought add-ons. What a crock. Microsoft, you did yourself in with this one.

John Thuot II

[NSRacer]

i have my doubts about this game but let's stick to the topic. What they mean by this is that the game will feature a free demo including the hawaii island. Just like fsx came with a demo featuring some planes and tncm

[Nels_Anderson]

It means exactly what it says.

This product is not FSXI, as they've been saying all along it's something new and different.

[djtrev]

But how will they set the add-ons and pricing? Will it be by continent, country, parts of countries and compare to scenery add-ons such as the ORBX series? If so, it's going to make it hellishly expensive for those who don't' want to be restricted to a single area...

[ricardo_NY1]

The fact sheet and even the press release at their site almost read like a bad joke..........I think I stand corrected on what I've said in previous posts regarding the add-on market..........I'll just wait and see what the SDK is going to be about and what real add-on developers will be able to do. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope there is a good road ahead. I know one thing is for certain, if they lock regular folk out of the add-on market, may it be free or payware developers, they would essentially eliminate what made the simulator what it is, and that is not worth the extra few bucks. Anyone who can look back at the history of flight simulator knows that the ability for anyone to design scenery, aircraft and other add-ons is what gave it life. If MS is going to get into the add-on business, don't make it an exclusive ability. I think that would hurt the title, and the "Flight Simulator" series as we know it would be dead.

[Firekitten]

If this is true, I'm sad, but completely not suprised. It sounds like a demo right? one plane, one area.... But the 'starter pack' free to play... sounds like an attempt at an MMO from Flight... especilly coupled with the guff about social networking. Why code AI if you can force everyone to fly together? mayhaps... cue attempt at the vatsim market, and only, via windows/xbox live...
The whole thing really isnt fs11... its a game, a flying game, unrelated, and while they think it will appeal, its not got a prayer.

Want to fly something other than the one plane? buy it
Want somewhere other than Hawaii? Buy it.

Me?


Not gonna buy it.

[torkermax]

It not really "free" there is no such thing in todays economical enviroment. It is a portal to the real pay as you go "game". Best have a killer ISP connection!

[IGrant]

Unless they have come up with some ground breaking advances and optimization that make this new generation better looking and better performing, this is going to die very quickly. That would be the only reason any of us would move on to Flight over our old tested and and trusty FS9s and FSXs. And it would have to be a leap at that. I don't see it happening, especially since it looks like the same old engine repackaged one more time no matter how many times they swear its not. Just look at the screen shots that show you full detail vs reduced for performance... looks awfully familiar to me.

[Jack19262]

Actually, from the release date of the free part, you'll be able to purchase the entire hawaiian island chain.

[Firekitten]

Don't like Hawaii... Its too sunny.

[scottb613]

Personally - I had always suspected Flight was going to be subscription based to captialize on those monthly recurring fees... The profits would far exceed what they could get off a one time purchase... No facts to support it - it's just a hunch...

Regards,
Scott

[Ragtopjohnny]

It means exactly what it says.

This product is not FSXI, as they've been saying all along it's something new and different.

Nels, completely understandable that its something new and different.

However, I have to agree with Ricardo, that MORE scenery and other aircraft give the game life. Why not include more than one default aircraft out of the box?

I sadly think though that the "Flight Simulator" series as we know it is dead now. What ever happened to the people who are loyal to the franchise like those before FS98 and went all the way up to FSX? I think its sad that Microsoft is just in it for the gimme gimme gimme and money money money, and seem to think that who gives a hell about the loyal fans and customers over the years?

Yup, sad day that I'm NOT buying Flight, I'm sticking with FSX and my Sim Savvy, and all my other wonderful default and add-on aircraft I've come to know and love other the years.

John Thuot II

[djadlib]

I'm convinced now that I, and I think many others too, will stick with FSX for a long time to come.
Having invested over a 1000 Euro's in addons, not even mentioning the 100+ Gb of excellent freeware addons I use, I don't think that I'll pay extra to fly some toyplane over my own hometown, wich is not on Hawaii, when I can land my PMDG 747X in my home street in FSX. (Altough I will scratch my winglets when I do :) )

Also have I not yet seen any plane bigger than a single engine prop, and I almost excusively fly Heavy's into Intl. destinations.

Probably a good reason why they left the "Simulator" part out of the name. This will not be a comparison to what we fly now.

Harro

[raimondo2]

Lots of negative response about Flight !

not what simmers expected - !

[loki]

I sadly think though that the "Flight Simulator" series as we know it is dead now. What ever happened to the people who are loyal to the franchise like those before FS98 and went all the way up to FSX? I think its sad that Microsoft is just in it for the gimme gimme gimme and money money money, and seem to think that who gives a hell about the loyal fans and customers over the years?

What happened is that the dedicated simmers aren't a large enough market to support development of new sims. Microsoft has always been in it for the money, and has never pretended otherwise. They got to where they are by making decisions based on money, not what would be nice to have. The thousands of dedicated flight sim fans that frequent this and other forums are a fraction of the users who have bought the sim, and MS knows this.

[ricardo_NY1]

What happened is that the dedicated simmers aren't a large enough market to support development of new sims.

I would honestly like to know how things compare today to the days of FS5, FS98 in terms of how many people are actually buying a copy of the software. I honestly find it hard to believe that the core group of people who made it happen back then have disappeared, and logically, you would think more people have joined the wagon. Is piracy or something else to blame? How were dedicated simmers able to keep FS going back in the early 80's or even mid 90's when most people didn't even have a PC in the US? This subject is a topic of its own really.

Lastly, I still cannot swallow MS actually doing anything as bright as what outfits like Flytampa, Wilco, Dreamfleet, Captain Sim, etc have been doing for years. If MS does not release an SDK that those guys can work with, I'm going to liquid nitrogen and OC'ing something past 4ghz so I can jumpi onto the FSX wagon.

[loki]

The problem isn't that the core group is any smaller, and is probably much larger, but that it costs far more to develop a complicated program these days. High end games can easily cost millions to develop, which means one has to sell to as many users as possible.

[slowroll]

I only hope that the third party community continues to increase their development for X-plane. When I see the first LevelD/PMDG quality add-on I'll make the switch.

I have no ill will towards Microsoft; I hope they are successful. But, Flight doesn't seem to be what I'm looking for.

[joejam2]

Nah I'm sticking with FSX over XP10. The scenery and AI are on the saem level as cool in FS2000. Actually the real world buildings are actually in FS2000.

I'm not to surprised its Hawaii only after all the hush hush. They wanted to reel you in as far as they could before being forced to make the announcement. It would have been worse If we all found out by a beta tester that leaked the info. The A5 is an ugly little airplane. Atleast you get the Stearman after creating an account....

[torkermax]

Then don't fly in Hawaii. you will have other options, if you pay for them!. Simply put, Hawaii is free, the rest you pay for. Whos to say that addon developers ahvnt injected scenery, weather etc into the program and that you just pay for them as you use the, an option?

[raimondo2]

Just immagine:
No Freeware - no opportunity to create somenthing of yours to add to the game - gents - what is at stake here is much more than anybody think ! Without Freeware and third parties payware - the community will die - and with that will also the various sites - as flightsim - avsim - third parties groups etc etc etc !!

i say no more ! as this is the main concern to some of major developers i have spoke to - .

If flight will not provide an sdk and open door to freeware and independent payware groups/developers - is the end of it - of flight simulation as we know it - !

and the Flight Era begin ! windows based sim / communities etc etc - under control of microsoft !

Google surely is monitoring !! :cool: (do not forget there is a massive battle between the two).

[Goon357]

Has anyone noticed that all the planes seem to be VFR only?

[Gerbrandd]

The A5 is an ugly little airplane.
Looks like a car, LOL :cool:

[mdm248111]

Then don't fly in Hawaii. you will have other options, if you pay for them!. Simply put, Hawaii is free, the rest you pay for. Whos to say that addon developers ahvnt injected scenery, weather etc into the program and that you just pay for them as you use the, an option?

1. The Big Island of Hawaii is free. Other islands like Oahu and Kauai likely aren't. They will likely be the extra "regions" that you can buy.

2. As a developer myself, I have been interested in Flight since Day 1. However, with Microsoft releasing Flight for free, they'll be making all of their money on add-on's that they sell via their "integrated marketplace." Why would MS release a game for free then allow other people to make and sell addon content, when that is precisely what they would be doing to make their money?

3. If you have to buy extra regions, what would make anyone believe that those extra regions aren't already completely outfitted with great scenery? We've all seen the screenshots, and it looks nice. I can't imagine having to pay extra simply to get a bland, un-"scenerized" area....

[benEggleston16]

I've heard said a few times on forums that this is like the FSX demo, but Microsoft are calling this the full product, just without addons. I feel a bit cheated they haven't even included the whole Hawaiian chain: surely it is not realistic to not be able to see or visit any of the other islands from 'Big Island' such as Maui (30 miles away)?

For those who haven't seen it, the final nail in the coffin, the announcement of no third-party addons:
http://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4317/microsoft-flight-behind-scenes-at-microsoft-studios/

'There will be no user development kit and hence no user created content'

[Ragtopjohnny]

Then don't fly in Hawaii. you will have other options, if you pay for them!. Simply put, Hawaii is free, the rest you pay for. Whos to say that addon developers ahvnt injected scenery, weather etc into the program and that you just pay for them as you use the, an option?

Why pay when we have all this for free in FSX that came with a one time payment for all?

John Thuot II

[benEggleston16]

I'm secretly hoping that this announcement was just to avoid daunting the newcomer with FMCs, SIDs/STARs, MCDUs or even V/IFR differences, they wanted to make it look fun to appeal to the caual gamer and relied on 'hardcore' simmers by their very nature and definition to remain interested and keep up with the updates and download the base pack at least.

As I saw on another forum though, MS can't expect a huge 'gamer' interest unless there is combat and at least a little blood since shooting is what about 90% of 'gamers' want.

http://forum.justflight.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=18608

I admit I actually think this new format looks quite fun (of course I'm sad though that the FS franchise seems to have died for ever), and until the scenery for the whole world is released, it isn't going to replace FSX for anyone so it can just be a contrasting accompanyment, notwithstanding the £/$/€100s that everyone has spent on FSX/9 soft and hardware.

[Nels_Anderson]

I think you need to look at this with an open mind.

"Flight" is something different from what we are used to. Microsoft has some pretty smart people and they believe that what they've created will attract new people to the flightsim hobby. If they are right, that is a very good thing. As many have said, we're a fairly small group here. If some of those newcomers enjoy the hobby enough to want more, i.e., advancing to FSX, then the hobby as a whole will grow. Microsoft still considers FSX to be a current product:

http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/

We're going to be seeing newcomers arrive as a result of this new sim. One big problem we have is the endless negativity and hostility seen in the forums, not just here but on other sites as well. We'd be a lot better off if that situation were to improve and newcomers felt more welcomed. "Flight" may not be the FSXI that we were hoping for but it can be looked at as an opportunity, if we decide to take it.

[benEggleston16]

Microsoft still considers FSX to be a current product


We're going to be seeing newcomers arrive as a result of this new sim. One big problem we have is the endless negativity and hostility seen in the forums, not just here but on other sites as well. We'd be a lot better off if that situation were to improve and newcomers felt more welcomed. "Flight" may not be the FSXI that we were hoping for but it can be looked at as an opportunity, if we decide to take it.

That was pretty much what I was saying, I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this way.

[raimondo2]

Ohh ! I love this one Nels!!

If some of those newcomers enjoy the hobby enough to want more, i.e., advancing to FSX

post of the day !! download Flight - and Advance to FSX when you want more !! :)

why not ?

[ricardo_NY1]

I've heard said a few times on forums that this is like the FSX demo, but Microsoft are calling this the full product, just without addons. I feel a bit cheated they haven't even included the whole Hawaiian chain: surely it is not realistic to not be able to see or visit any of the other islands from 'Big Island' such as Maui (30 miles away)?

For those who haven't seen it, the final nail in the coffin, the announcement of no third-party addons:
http://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4317/microsoft-flight-behind-scenes-at-microsoft-studios/

'There will be no user development kit and hence no user created content'
No SDK? Wow! Long live FSX! The last of the MSFS series. I am officially declaring a new found ambition to invest in a very OC'able CPU and getting FSX to run as best as it can. There goes my excitement over Flight. MS...........you killed the title! Let's see how well your marketplace goes.............I have a small prediction........unless you hire the people over at Carenado, Flytampa, FSDreamteam, Wilco, Captainsim, OrbX, etc.......you are toast!

Nels.......MS is out of their mind if they think we need another free demo to entice people to buy FSX. Bottom line is, you really can't drag people into flight simulation. People find their way into it. It is what it is as far as I know......some things no matter how good they are will not make financial sense, and if that is the case, so be it. But this is not a stunt that is going to pan out. I think MS will lose it's base as soon as people discover how restrictive and pretty much lame it will be without an SDK. Add-ons both freeware and payware are what created excitement throughout all of these past versions......that's what the cult following has always been about since we first had the ability to create our own aircraft and scenery back in the FS4 days. Take this charm away and it's all history. I think MS dropped the ball in not respecting the fundamental success behind MSFS, and that has always been development by the community. It's not the biggest deal after all........FS9 and FSX are still here and development will continue for them. That I am certain about. Boy was I wrong arguing here about MS getting involved in add-ons! I didn't see the no SDK deal coming however.

[benEggleston16]

unless you hire the people over at Carenado, Flytampa, FSDreamteam, Wilco, Captainsim, OrbX, etc.......you are toast!

Absolutely true, FLIGHT will never replace FSX, just make it look even better!
Or as Nels sees it, a steeping-stone
Microsoft have hardly succeeded in advancing the Flight Sim franchise if what is viewed as taking a step forward is actually taking a step back
The only way it'll entice me is if the frame rates are double FSX and really what are the chances of that...

[ricardo_NY1]

Absolutely true, FLIGHT will never replace FSX, just make it look even better!
Or as Nels sees it, a steeping-stone
Microsoft have hardly succeeded in advancing the Flight Sim franchise if what is viewed as taking a step forward is actually taking a step back
The only way it'll entice me is if the frame rates are double FSX and really what are the chances of that...

Maybe it's just me, but I am having a very difficult time convincing myself that MS has people with the ability to produce anything close to the caliber of what we have seen with the add-on community, payware and even freeware. It takes specialization to do what some of those aircraft and scenery guys do. I cannot imagine them entertaining the cadre of staff they would need to reproduce the quality or selection of add-ons that have existed for most given versions. They wire up audio equipment to aircraft, etc, but are they ready to deal with the things we've seen from the big names in payware? No SDK means Project Magenta will not work. Are they going to open up the Boeing and Airbus manuals and reproduce that software faithfully? It's a long shot. This is a long topic, but in short, MS cannot in my opinion replace the add-on market in any way on its own or satisfy the quality that we have enjoyed. And if they were to pursue any of it, they are going to have their hands really full considering what is out there for FSX. It will probably be cheaper to spend your last dollar on a top computer build than chase Flight. I'm not totally disappointed by what I am reading......Flight never looked that much better than FSX. I welcomed it simply because I thought it would be an optimized FSX ready to take advantage of the CPU's as they are today. A mountain of autogen and some choice screenshots never fooled me in that aspect.

[djadlib]

As long as there is no passenger jet in the likes of PMDG or CaptainSim and I can't take of from, let's say, an Aerosoft MAP AmsterdamX or UK2000 Heathrow "real world" airport, and fly over a beautiful fotoscenery like NL2000 (all 3rd party, and that's impossible with this new arcade thingy), I can't be bothered.

...from the link in post #23: "

"Goldrush is a challenge that can be played on Live as well as offline. The objective is to collect as many of the gold items as you can before the time runs out"
Read more: http://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4317/microsoft-flight-behind-scenes-at-microsoft-studios/

Might as well play MarioWorld if I want to chase Gold coins in the sky :(

[Flyfalcons]

Has anyone noticed that all the planes seem to be VFR only?

Didn't notice that because it's not true. So far from what's been shown, the Maule and RV-6 have IFR panels.

[Ragtopjohnny]

As long as there is no passenger jet in the likes of PMDG or CaptainSim and I can't take of from, let's say, an Aerosoft MAP AmsterdamX or UK2000 Heathrow "real world" airport, and fly over a beautiful fotoscenery like NL2000 (all 3rd party, and that's impossible with this new arcade thingy), I can't be bothered.

...from the link in post #23: "

"Goldrush is a challenge that can be played on Live as well as offline. The objective is to collect as many of the gold items as you can before the time runs out"
Read more: http://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4317/microsoft-flight-behind-scenes-at-microsoft-studios/

Might as well play MarioWorld if I want to chase Gold coins in the sky :(

I thought the same thing. How childish can they get? It's really sad what they're coming out with here, and I'm surprised they're doing this still.

John Thuot II

[jomni]

Ok here's a more troubling thought. If we think FSX is dead, what if Microsoft one day shuts off their validation servers and we can't install our FSX anymore to force us to move on to Flight.

Also if buying add-ons relies on LIVE (which may be free or on a subscription basis) then it will kill FSPilotShot, SimMarket, Flight1, etc.

We are doomed! We just hope they at least keep the satus quo with regards to FSX (keep it as an active product).
Or esle I see a whole bunch of people and add-on developers move to X-plane.

[joejam2]

I'm hoping about 6 months after FLIGHT's release they will realize that they need to bring FSXI to life and will start working on it.

[holmese]

I'm hoping about 6 months after FLIGHT's release they will realize that they need to bring FSXI to life and will start working on it.
I'd like to think you may be right, but I'd bet a dime to a Dollar, that there will not be another Flight Simulator product from MS anyway, - like FSXI - for a long time. - If ever !
I think MS have made the change - and they ain't going back.
It's possible some other Software developer might step up to the plate, and resurrect something like FSXI, - I doubt it , but then you can never say never. - Life is full of surprises.

[benEggleston16]

We're going to be seeing newcomers arrive as a result of this new sim.

I think what somone said about you fall/find out about FS yourself, if you are that sort of person or just an aviation enthusiast, if you went into a (video) Game store and said 'Who wants to play a game where you fly around an island in an ugly plane that looks like a car outside and a boat inside, you can collect gold coins and well, that's it. No shooting, no airliners, no learning curve, you are supposed to use a mouse' I don't think you'd get much of a following.

I admit I am excited about this game but that's probably just because it's free. It will not replace FSX.

[csefton]

Flight will not last...

[Mogget]

Ok here's a more troubling thought. If we think FSX is dead, what if Microsoft one day shuts off their validation servers and we can't install our FSX anymore to force us to move on to Flight.

If they do that, then someone will very quickly create a "no activation" install patch. Whether that would be illegal or not is irrelevant. The entire FSX community would simply not allow Microsoft to do that.

[HectorD]

Guys... just wait and see. No point talking about this stuff.

[raimondo2]

they will not do that ! as you pay to use the game therefore they have to provide you with activation.

[Anubis]

I hope to be wrong, but Flight compared to FSX seems exactly what Windows Vista was compared to Windows XP.

A product originally designed to replace something working well and with a solid customer base, a product very flashy but without a solid core of enhancements, announced with lots of hype but rejected by the market and quickly eclipsed by its successor (Windows 7, which is far more solid and valid).

Oh well, let's begin the wait for FSXI now...

Paolo

[benny1]

I will try it , its free , will dvd`s be an option? , tell you what , if it looks or runs funky , there will be no additional purchases from me since no third party could correct the problems

[Jugador]

Unfortunately, this seems to be the (sad) trend in the gaming industry. Apparently, dlc is where the monies are.

How does $100 bucks for a plane sound to you?...

Well, that's exactly what EA is charging for their latest "premium elite" vehicle.

EA $100 car (http://www.t3.com/news/ea-offer-dollar-100-elite-dlc-car-in-need-for-speed-world)



Of course, it's just a psychological marketing ploy. I doubt they'll sell many, but now the $50 vehicles look like a bargain!

[jcmmg]

1) it looks like MS is trying to creat a market similar to Apple with its ITunes store. can we judge how successful it is? How does all those music labels, film producer, etc are now looking to iTunes, as thread or as an opportunity? Unfortunately this market need time!!

2) The statement MS FLIGHT is to fly not to fight, for PC gaming industry is just rubbish. They are barking the wrong tree, if they want to capture the Masses for these kind of games with this approach. Uhmmm Prepar3D is looking more feasible, well if they allow it... I mean a gaming platform for commun people not for corporates. The only succes in this area is Nintendo, with Wii Sports... But after you can buy a Resident Evil copy...

2.5) If they want masses, then create an App for that! :D Upppss there is an App for that and is X-Plane for IPhone :D

3) For me MS Flight is just an interim software, like Windows Vista or perhaps even Millenium! MS is doing real tests with this and future flightsim products...

[jmiranda]

Yes this is a money making GAME not a sim... you will have to buy planes....scenery, even you can fly it with YOUR XBOX CONTROLLER! It is NOT for flight simmers...IT IS NOT FSXI, Its a new game from microsoft.

[ussmidway]

Well, collecting things while you fly.......that was done in Diddy Kong Racing on the N64, and very well I might add :-) No thanks MS, I will stick to FS9 and look forward to when I have a PC to run FSX properly. Plus I can always try XP10 and XP9.

Im out, have a short flight from G Grimshaws KBOS to SunSky KPHL in my Tinmouse 737. Good times, good times(and free).

[jomni]

Unfortunately, this seems to be the (sad) trend in the gaming industry. Apparently, dlc is where the monies are.

How does $100 bucks for a plane sound to you?...

Well, that's exactly what EA is charging for their latest "premium elite" vehicle.

EA $100 car (http://www.t3.com/news/ea-offer-dollar-100-elite-dlc-car-in-need-for-speed-world)



Of course, it's just a psychological marketing ploy. I doubt they'll sell many, but now the $50 vehicles look like a bargain!

Well the trend is already apparent with all the FS9 and FSX add-ons floating around. MS just wants everything for themselves this time. But how fast can they develop sceneries and aircraft? Flight is so bare bones, there's a lot of things that needs to be done till we get FSX level of content.

Yes it seems to be an interim product. They will develop the main simulation engine. Offer a small portion for free. Slowly develop additional content. Make people buy little add-ons to fund the development of the full blown stuff. It may also create a new generation of flight simmers. (Who may upgrade to FSX once they find out what's missing in Flight).

It actually makes no difference to us if Flight (stripped down) releases this year or Flight (full blown as we thought it would) be released in 2014. If we want the full blown stuff we have to wait.

[angels355]

Let's wait and see how it turns out. MS always has a knack of designing very appealing software. Perhaps Flight is designed to try to reach a wider audience from the complete novice who may not plan to become an aficionado, and perhaps it will be scalable upwards to the most demanding simmers like me. Having a wider larger audience is better for us aficionados, it results in more money for the Flight developers so we will get a better product.

In the past there was some talk about Flight excluding freeware developers, and payware developers that were not officially licensed by MS to provide add-ons. Anyone know if there is any truth to that? I want to buy more PMDG's and other aircraft.

I just finished assembling my first FSX computer, haven't even installed Windows yet, seems like I'm a little behind schedule. Has anyone tried Flight yet? Its' release is only a few months away, I think we should just wait and see how it turns out.

[jomni]

.
In the past there was some talk about Flight excluding freeware developers, and payware developers that were not officially licensed by MS to provide add-ons. Anyone know if there is any truth to that? I want to buy more PMDG's and other aircraft.


This seems to be the case. Someone even speculated (or it came from the horse's mouth) that they won't release the SDK. They will tightly control additional content and distribute it though Windows Live. So no freeware. As for payware, I just hope they enlist accomplished add-on developers instead of tackling everything themselves. It will take forever for MS to do it alone especially when they released a game that is at it's bare minimum.

Regulation has it's benefits... you get higher standards.

[kevhead]

Well they lost one customer and they haven't even came out with the game yet. :D

[angels355]

This seems to be the case. Someone even speculated (or it came from the horse's mouth) that they won't release the SDK. They will tightly control additional content and distribute it though Windows Live. So no freeware. As for payware, I just hope they enlist accomplished add-on developers instead of tackling everything themselves. It will take forever for MS to do it alone especially when they released a game that is at it's bare minimum.

Regulation has it's benefits... you get higher standards.

Before we all start getting upset, let's just wait and see what they give us, and their rules of the game. I'm sure everything will turn out all right. We have to have our freeware however, and our PMDG's, and we need truly awful payware that allows us to write scathing reviews of the product, and/or throw the boxed item against the wall and into the garbage, these are all things that are important to flight simmers. If MS is in control of what is released to us they may dumb down payware products. But it is much too early to be upset about anything, we should be thrilled that MS came through for us and provided a new flight simulator. In only a few months we'll be able to get our hands on the actual product and see what they are offering for ourselves. I'm looking forward to a synergistic experience, a lot of synergies have been put into this product.

[raimondo2]

This seems to be the case. Someone even speculated (or it came from the horse's mouth) that they won't release the SDK. They will tightly control additional content and distribute it though Windows Live. So no freeware. As for payware, I just hope they enlist accomplished add-on developers instead of tackling everything themselves. It will take forever for MS to do it alone especially when they released a game that is at it's bare minimum.

Regulation has it's benefits... you get higher standards.

How many times did you turn your head - to look around for freeware addition to your simulator ??

Without SDK you will not be able to do so ! if you want to add anything to your flight game you will have to pay - and continue to pay every single time you want somenthing new.

this is exactly what is meant when you read NO SDK !! I can assure you that a NO SDK is not going to benefit you or thousands of others !!

[angels355]

Is that true, no SDK? MS has often had a change of heart in many situations, is MS going to have a change of heart in this area? We need the SDK. We need to have the freedom to have the ultimate PMDG's, and the Klingon cruiser too.

When MS announced their plan to produce MS Flight, was that the end of the Aerosoft flight simulator?

[CTarana]

Pro Pilot
Flight Unlimited II
Fly!! 2
FlightGear
Microsoft "Flight"

Nuff Said! :eek:

Christopher

[Sim-Savvy]

Is that true, no SDK? MS has often had a change of heart in many situations, is MS going to have a change of heart in this area? We need the SDK. We need to have the freedom to have the ultimate PMDG's, and the Klingon cruiser too.

When MS announced their plan to produce MS Flight, was that the end of the Aerosoft flight simulator?

I am a photoreal scenery maker and it will be the end for me.
Several months back I spoke with a possible capital investor.
He knew people at Microsoft and told me if I took my product to them they would steal it.
It has always been my idea to combine the simming world with real world pilots.
A flight simulator ground school with resident CFI is the future of aviation training.
I guess Microsoft has figured that out, perhaps with some outside help.
By providing an SDK, Microsoft implied we could use it.
Now they see that add-ons are the much larger income to the initial product.
Our only solution is an open source simulator program that belongs to us.

Ironically, I just finished Hawaii but could not do the Big Island because the aerials were so bad.
The scenery is free for all on my sample page. And the rest of my scenery may be free soon also :?

[fxsttcb]

Actually I think Flight just may improve the marketability of good FSX add-ons. I'm certainly sticking with it, just to have an SDK to work with, creating freebies and fixes.
With nowhere to go but MS for add-ons, and no SDK for 3rd party development, I can see a renewed interest in add-ons for FSX. Especially once the newbies find out that there is a bounty of free enhancements and superb payware readily available.
It might not be the perfect sim, but is the best we have.

ORBx seems to be sticking with FSX and Prepar3D for the duration. Solid plans for the next 2 years or so and looking at ten years of development for those platforms.
If LM does get the bugs worked out of the ESP engine, even at the price, it will be a viable alternative. The beauty of that, is FSX add-ons should work too...Don

[benEggleston16]

I don't understand ORBX anymore, see the post in the FSX forum 'The ORBX 2012 approach'
Is Prepar3D such a viable alternative, at $499? Perhaps to Jon Venema and his followers, they will buy it just to keep up to date with FTX addons but to most, it's just a fantasy.

[JSkorna]

How about $10 a month?

[benEggleston16]

$120 a year: I've been into flight simming for more than five years and if I use P3D for five years, I will have paid more than the purchase price. I don't know what's so great about a 'new' sim built on FSX with bugs fixed: true, it may be more technical to suit the customer base but any addons made for it are FSX compatible, so it if it is the way forward for addons: and I believe it isn't, (if they advertise as 'P3D compatible', FSX users, of whom I think there will always be more then P3D users, might not buy if they don't understand the compatibility, also developers might read that if people can spend $499, they won't mind paying a bit more for the same addon they bought for FSX, after all it is for a more advanced sim) the addons should have FSX compatibilty, so the end result: FSX lives on.

[raimondo2]

hi gents !
the sim world is a bit turned upside down past few days !
people are loosing the plot !!

yes flight is an arcade (apparently) - do not worry - voids will be filled !! stay calm and spend wisely or simply fly FSX which is still the favorite sim !

[jomni]

Yes. I even downloaded the X-Plane demo to see it has to offer. No one can question the flight model's superiority over FSX. Though the night lighting is spectacular, everything else pales in comparison with FSX (modded). Controls and views are a bit confusing as well and a lot you have to configure yourself. Button and knob mouse control are counter intuitive.

[fxsttcb]

Is Prepar3D such a viable alternative, at $499?That would be up to the end user. If, as Orbx suggested, Prepar3D will in fact be fully supported for the next ten years, the amortization would be just over $4 a month. Remember that is a Commercial license. BIG chunk of change up front though. If there are no alternatives for a serious Flight Simulator, it's P3D or FSX(as is).

Unless LM radically alters the Events, Variables, and Compilers, contained in the SDK, I don't see why any FSX planes won't work.
I'm sure the developers will track the LM SDK changes(free download). If a lot of folks migrate to Prepar3D v2, I would imagine there will be parallel P3D/FSX offerings.

The only thing I can see that will change that, is another LARGE x HUGE software house creating a new sim that betters FSX capability. Others have tried...Don

[raimondo2]

take all this in consideration;

all the addons fsx has - the services packs - the freeware - ! and the fact that is already on your pc all nicely sorted etc etc !

where prepar3d stand ?? with its price tag - etc etc !!!
it better become very very good as at the moment i do not see any chances to be the replacement for anything. It is just what it is right now - just another sim.

[angels355]

That would be up to the end user. If, as Orbx suggested, Prepar3D will in fact be fully supported for the next ten years, the amortization would be just over $4 a month. Remember that is a Commercial license. BIG chunk of change up front though. If there are no alternatives for a serious Flight Simulator, it's P3D or FSX(as is).

Unless LM radically alters the Events, Variables, and Compilers, contained in the SDK, I don't see why any FSX planes won't work.
I'm sure the developers will track the LM SDK changes(free download). If a lot of folks migrate to Prepar3D v2, I would imagine there will be parallel P3D/FSX offerings.

The only thing I can see that will change that, is another LARGE x HUGE software house creating a new sim that betters FSX capability. Others have tried...Don

Hi Don,

In my opinion Prepar3D is still not worth it because it is still 32 bit, and is not fully multithreaded, it is still basically FSX. I think we will just have to continue waiting.

There was a group in the NW who I think may have been started by some Aces (?) that were trying to develop a fully simulated modular environment, can't remember their name, I wonder if they are still working on it.

To make a big difference we need top level physics, aerodynamics, 64 bit, and fully multithreaded. How hard can that be?? Wonder how much that would cost to do?

[loki]

How hard can that be?? Wonder how much that would cost to do?

Ask EA and DICE what it cost for the Frostbite 2 engine. It offers full DX11 and 64 bit support, and doesn't support Windows XP because of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite_(game_engine)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pNOxynC1Dc

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pNOxynC1Dc)I don't think the problem would be the underlying engine so much as the time it would take to develop the aircraft, aircraft systems, AI, ATC, weather, scenery, and other parts of the sim that MS has had the last 30 years to do. Take a look at X-Plane. It is a good sim, but in large part because of the small development team, still lags behind in some areas. The cost to do all of this would easily be well into millions of dollars.

[angels355]

Ask EA and DICE what it cost for the Frostbite 2 engine. It offers full DX11 and 64 bit support, and doesn't support Windows XP because of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite_(game_engine) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite_%28game_engine%29)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pNOxynC1Dc

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pNOxynC1Dc)I don't think the problem would be the underlying engine so much as the time it would take to develop the aircraft, aircraft systems, AI, ATC, weather, scenery, and other parts of the sim that MS has had the last 30 years to do. Take a look at X-Plane. It is a good sim, but in large part because of the small development team, still lags behind in some areas. The cost to do all of this would easily be well into millions of dollars.

Thanks loki, that was awesome! I swear I'm buying it! Some people have poopooed Battlefield 3 because, if I have my games correct, it is more of a simulation than an ultra fast paced arcade game like the accepted standard for excellece Call of Duty.

What do you think of this scenario, just have the engine and a grey round sphere, maybe throw in a friendly helpful eyeball that blinks and has legs.....then have the addon community provide EVERYTHING else? Release the SDK and have either a freeware Earth terrain or payware from Aerosoft or Megascenary. Fly Legacy and Flight gear are both free opensource flight simulators built from the ground up entirely free by the community. A cutting edge skeleton simulator engine with a bare environment built to be populated by the freeware or payware add-on community?

I guess EA wouldn't loan us their Frostbite 3 engine? Do you think the frostbite engine is far more advanced than the FSX engine? Stupid question right? Is it fully multithreaded?

Regarding Flight, I think it is actually FSNext, we're just all too shocked to admit it. The fact sheet says it has high level physics and aerodynamics, they don't just whip that up overnight with a couple laptops and several pots of coffee, I think they used the FSX engine, made it more friendly to lower hardware, and then made it a closed community game, counting on our flight simulator addiciton to make add-on sales through only them. I think it is a closed community Fsnext, analogous to the transition from FS2000 to FS2002 where they overcame the FS2000 performance issue. I think we just wanted to believe in MS so badly, that they would cater to our geeky community with FSXI in the form that we envisioned that we're in denial over what Flight really is. You have to account for human nature, couple MS managers got angry wouldn't get along and wiped out FS as we know it. Then hired a spokeswoman who uses words like "Synergies", and probably also "I'm so sure!" and "That is sooo yesterday!" And with no stockholder oversight to ensure that managers behave responsibly in preserving a money making franchise, there was no one to stop them from wiping out what was the FS series. In some companies such irresponsibility would result in prosecutiton.

What we wanted was a new FS engine like Frostbite that would address for example the performance capabilities of a socket 2011 i7 E or i8 E, not the Pentium D with 32 bit windows. What we got, in my opinion was the FSnext that MS was willing to give us, a warmed over FSX, in a closed community format. I'm probably the only person still using Pentium 4's, I can tell you that the internet has been getting hefty and if I open too many windows it completely chokes the P4's, even with maxed out ram. The design of FSX was started in the Pentium 4 era, that technology is completely out of date. Flight is just warmed over and closed community FSX in my opinion, when what we wanted was a quantum leap improvement. We might not ever get it. Flight = E German cast iron bathtub. Especially in contrast to the Frostbite engine. Apple's ad was ahead of its' time.

[tigisfat]

Angels355,

The generally accepted use of the whole 'fsnext' nomenclature was describing the title that was under development when ACES was killed.


As for the fact sheet, Microsoft is trying to create themselves a 'World of Warcraft' style community complete with cash flow. They had to make WOW to attract all nerds, not just die-hard fans of weird psuedo dungeons and dragons crap.

[angels355]

Angels355,

The generally accepted use of the whole 'fsnext' nomenclature was describing the title that was under development when ACES was killed.


As for the fact sheet, Microsoft is trying to create themselves a 'World of Warcraft' style community complete with cash flow. They had to make WOW to attract all nerds, not just die-hard fans of weird psuedo dungeons and dragons crap.

I'm saying that this is all they were willing to give us, and all we can expect from them. We might get more Synergies, but don't expect to get what we want.

I have never gotten into WoW, I have two friends who are completely immersed in it. At the library there are also people there playing online oblivious to the world around them. Complete total escapism. It has never appealed to me.