Kelowna B.C. problem with ATC not recognizing in FS2004

[stankar]

I'm running FS2004.
When I create a flight from Kelowna B.C. - CYLW, there are 3 starting locations for KelownaL

1. Kelowna CYLW (the one I want)
2. Kelowna Heliport 1 CYKH
3. Kelowna Heliport 2 CYH2

Selecting the first option, it appears in the next window as "Kelowna Glider" which is another location on the Kelowna airfield, represented by AFCAD af2_cykg.bgl

I have no choice but to load this, but it registers as CYKG and this messes up my flight planning, because the system is looking for CYLW and finds CYKG.

Any comments or solutions to this will be appreciated.

Stan

[StringBean]

Stan,

Is this an issue with a third-party addon?

I see the same behavior in the GUI, yet default FS9 ATC still recognizes me as being at CYLW when I start the flight.

Or are you starting your flight at one of the helipads?

For those interested, the scenery addon is Kelowna3.zip in the library.

I always questioned the multiple Afcads, I think they are intended for AI.

peace,
the Bean

[stankar]

Hi Bean
I'm a'thinking, as you say, that it is a rogue AFCAD in add-on scenery. If its working with the default scenery then this must be the problem. I'll start off by deleting what scenery I have for Kelowna, but the problem is still that the stray AFCAD might be lurkihg in some other scenery, which could be tricky to find. I'll try and search for dupllicates. What I'll probably do is to disable all the scenery in this area and see if the problem disappears, and then progressively add them in again. I've done it before - slow and tedious but usually works.

BTW, there's a lot of add-on scenery in the library but no Kelowna3. zip. No worry, let me sort out my problem then I can download what I need.

Thanks
Stan

[opaplano]

Kelowna3.zip IS in the library - I just downloaded it and took a look.

There is a secondary afcad in it - which as Bean suggested may be for gliders as glider is a part of it's file name.

I have also experienced the mis-match name in the Go to Airport dialogue when using what amounts to an "overlay" afcad in conjunction with a "normal" afcad. Even though the wrong name may appear in the dialogue I have not had problems using what I selected.

[stankar]

Sorry, I did miss the file. But Opa, with all your experience, d'you think its a rogue AFCAD, and if so, could there be an easier way to locate it other than to disable all possible scenery areas and then re-enable them progressively? I can check for duplicate AFCADS, but I'm actually not sure what to look for. Actually the problem came up using that excellent voice recognition software Its Your Plane, and found that Kelowna is the one location that I'm experiencing problems. What happens is that when I issue verbal instructions to ATC right at the start, e.g. "Switch to ATIS" which should bring up the ATIS bar, it registers the command (don't know whether you're familiar with the package), and then beeps and the message comes up that no ATC facilities are available at that airport. Same with "Switch to ground". It goes through its little trick, changes the comms frequency to ground via the various ATC windows, and then beeps and comes up with a similar message (not sure of the exact wording as I'm sneaking in time at the office), and then the comms frequency reverts to its original value. When I press the relevant numbers in the ATC windows it works fine. I contacted Its Your Plane and they have no explanation apart from the fact that it works fine on their side. According to their online log, Kelowna is not registering as KYLP (I think thats the Kelowna ICAO), but the Kelowna Glider code, which is different, and that's why it doesn't work correctly. So its not an IYP issue - just for me at Kelowna, and thats why I suspected the AFCAD problem and posted it on our forum.

If this suggests any possible causes, then I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks

Stan

[StringBean]

Stan,

You already have Kelowna3.zip installed, that's where the multiple start locations came from.

Try this, search for the following files and move them out of any active scenery folder, then test.

Kelowna Helicopter #1.BGL

Kelowna Helicopter #2.BGL

Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL

These extra Afcads are not really needed for the scenery to work.

Unless you have added traffic files that use those airports, you will only lose a couple start locations.

Let us know how it turns out.

peace,
the Bean

[stankar]

Thanks Bean, but I guess either I or Kelowna is jinxed. I did what you suggested and it made no difference. I disabled Kelowna - same - I then disabled ALL my BC addon scenery - exactly the same. I guess if I was really determined I could reinstall FS9, but am not prepared to do so for the sake of one airport, so I guess I'll have to live with this bug. If anybody requests a flight to Kelowna, I'll just have to decline graciously and tell them that I'm banned by the flight authorities from flying this route!

If anybody reads this and has some other idea, please let me know.

Thanks
Stan

[ronzie]

Here's what I found out (actually responding to your AVSIM post):

First, as suspected, do NOT do anything with AFCAD on these files. These are designed as overlays with no excludes. The excludes are separate bgls. I looked at them with ADE9X.

The ICAO CYKG is also a default FS9 airport nowhere near this one.

The heliport runways are 250 ft long x 1 ft wide. They serve a special purpose evidently. Paved.
The glider runway CYKG is 500 ft long x 1 ft wide. Another special purpose. Paved.

CYWL looks good except for one orphaned node and maybe a disconnected link both at the south end taxi point. These might cause an AI problem.

I loaded a the scenery from CYLW and it did show the glider name. The GPS showed the overlayed airports. I reloaded the flight from a GA ramp and it located OK.

I think somewhere there is an option in loading a plan in FS to allow the plan to move the aircraft. I'd turn this off.

I did not see any exclude in the CYKG glider airport that would give it priority over the default FS airport with the same ICAO but I did not try creating a flight from CYKG.

Added here:
What is happening with flight planning. I don't use the FS9 planner but the two different airports with CYKG as the ICAO might present a problem.

Now this CYKG does show in the ADE9X approach editor (with no approaches) which is why it shows on the FS9 GPS with no plan loaded. The planner should see this as well.

If you can contact the author I'd ask why default ICAO was duplicated. I can't examine all of the excludes so maybe the default is excluded in one of these special files as if that airport was moved but according to the link below it wasn't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYKG

which matches the FS default.

[opaplano]

Some futher feedback -

I removed the three files as Bean suggested from my installation of Kelowna and now the choice in the Go To Airport displays properly for me when I select Kelowna - CYLW.

I am not familar with the extra program (Its Your Plane) he is using so cannot comment on what he is experiencing with it.

[opaplano]

I would add that I use an overlay "airport" of my own for AI Helicopter traffic between Kelowna and Penticton and it presents no name problems on the Go To Airport dialogue either. My Kelowna overlay for Choppers is named AF2_CYL9.bgl.

The AI package I am referring to can be found in the library:

Name: ai_bc_up.zip (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=117267) Size: 385,324 Date: 11-22-2007 Downloads: 539
http://www.flightsim.com/m/ai_bc_up.gif FS2004 Scenery--AI Helicopters At Penticton and Kelowna BC, Canada update. In response to several requests, this update provides out and back flights of the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter at Penticton and Kelowna, BC. One of the helicopters also makes round trips from these two cities several times a day. Prior installation of CH_CYYF.ZIP (http://www.flightsim.com/file.php?cm=SEARCH1&fsec=0&fname=CH_CYYF.ZIP) is required. The package includes a new invisible helicopter landing area at Kelowna, a ground cover enhancement for Kelowna and updated flight plans. This update has been tested with several Kelowna Airport enhancements and the default Kelowna setting with no apparent issues. The forward departure (no push backs) technique is employed at both helicopter landing/parking areas. Compiled for your flying enjoyment by David "Opa" Marshall.

[stankar]

Thanks Opa. This is a strange one indeed. As I said, I removed the files as Bean suggested, and also disabled all scenery (I didn't delete it though) for that area, which should have left me with the default scenery. But I still had the same problem. I could of course reinstall FS9, but its not that serious an issue to do so. I'll just avoid Kelowna if I pick up problems. The problem is only in connection with the addon speech recognition software, so its not that serious. The IYP guys are also baffled. It seems to be some strange quirk in my installation. Maybe someday I'll find the solution by chance, but thanks for your input.
Stan

[StringBean]

Stan,

If you disable all scenery for the area and go to Kelowna do you see the default airport?

Are you using a saved flight?

Does IYP have a "collect airports" function or something similar?

peace,
the Bean

[ronzie]

If so it needs to be run again after any change in the scenery lib.

Opa:

Just to clarify my response I wasn't accenting the fact of the ICAO used for the glider overlay but just that it used that of another airport far away, CYKG.

However, I used the makerwys.exe utility from Pete Dowson (freeware) used (doesn't need FSUIPC) as a component for a senery database build in RC and looked at its log. I found the glider afcad file did have an exclusion statement in it to delete all lower priority CYKG runways, taxiway, gates, and comms. The coordinates listed for the deletions were the default CYKG at Wakeham Bay. The skinny runway put in probably for glider AI - it will not show in an overhead view but probably exists because gliders frequently land in a grass area to the side of a runway - is at the correct coordinates for this scenery. According to this the lower priority default CYKG at the lake listed in my wikipedia reference and I think was listed in FS default scenery would be wiped out from use by this new afcad.

In an AFCAD created file the excludes are not objects visible in ADE9X because they are more like instructions.

So my final take is that the airport property ID and file name of that add-on I would change from CYKG to something else like CYLG which does not exist according to a check I ran in FS9.




Stan,

. . .

Does IYP have a "collect airports" function or something similar?

peace,
the Bean

[StringBean]

Stan,

I hope you sorted out your issue, looks like we are going to wander off-topic for a while.

The following is meant to inform, not criticize.

The Afcad for Kelowna Glider has no impact on Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay at all.

Ronzie, I am not familiar with the procedure you used to read the excludes. However, all Afcads begin with a set of exclude statements regardless of the program used to create them.

The lat/lon co-ordinates in Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL are for Kelowna, not Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay.

If Jon wanders by this thread (or anyone else that knows for sure) he can confirm that FS9 Afcads are limited in influence to, I believe, about 60 miles. Since Kelowna is 1700 miles from Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay this file has no impact on it.


In an AFCAD created file the excludes are not objects visible in ADE9X because they are more like instructions.

Unless you consider things like aprons and runways visible objects.

peace,
the Bean

[ronzie]

Please see below:




Stan,

I hope you sorted out your issue, looks like we are going to wander off-topic for a while.

The following is meant to inform, not criticize.

The Afcad for Kelowna Glider has no impact on Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay at all.

Ron: I show the Wakeham Bay files as excluded by that utility. It is freeware and can stand alone. It is at:
http://forum.simflight.com/topic/66136-useful-additional-programs-1st-november-2010/
as Makerwys. Just install the .exe in your FS folder and run it (as an admin if necesary). It write out a runways.txt file that describes what it did. In runways.txt default airports have one section for each instance. Add-on aairports including adfcad types have a pair of sections - the first deletes and the second the scenery elements. It is a huge file so give it time to load in Wordpad (that's faster than notepad). Search for CYKG a few times. The last two times it occurs as the delete section followed by the scenery object section the coordinates for the runways differed. The last instance of the default or add-on pair has priority for the database files noted in its readme. The path to these afd property files is shown at the head of each section. This utility only creates an independent database for application that wish to use it. It does not create any scenery nor modify it in FS. Nothing native to FS uses this utility and it is safe to use. If you look at the r5.csv file created by this in your FS folder you'll see that there is no entry for CYKG as the would normally be for the default. That is because the runway size of 500x1 is excluded from CYKG glider because it is considered a fake runway (as in the afcad crosswind technique) so it doesn't get added back in after the deletion of the default CYKG runways.

Ron: Here is what I show for the last entries of CYKG glider:

Extract follows emphasis mine;
=============================================================================
Area.205 "CYLW- Kelowna" (Layer=95)
Local=..\..\..\CommonAddonScenery\CYLW- Kelowna
=============================================================================
..\..\..\CommonAddonScenery\CYLW- Kelowna\scenery\Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL
=============================================================================
Deletions check for Airport CYKG:
Delete all taxiways!

Delete all runways and starts!

*** DelBth *** CYKG0150 Lat 61.591042 Long -71.938187 Alt 511 Hdg 155 Len 3498 Wid 100

*** DelBth *** CYKG0330 Lat 61.585991 Long -71.921036 Alt 511 Hdg 335 Len 3498 Wid 100

Delete all taxiways!

COM: Delete all frequencies!
=============================================================================
..\..\..\CommonAddonScenery\CYLW- Kelowna\scenery\Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL
=============================================================================

Airport CYKG :N49:56:59.0201 W119:22:48.1436 1409ft
City Name="Kelowna"
Airport Name="Kelowna Glider"
in file: ..\..\..\CommonAddonScenery\CYLW- Kelowna\scenery\Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL

Runway 17 /35 centre: N49:56:52.8975 W119:22:44.4182 1409ft
Runway 17 closed for landing
Runway 35 closed for take-off
Start 17 : N49:57:01.2877 W119:22:46.6198 1409ft Hdg: 173.8 true
Hdg: 173.820 true (MagVar 20.650), UNKNOWN 3, 500 x 1 ft
Taxipoint #0, type 1 (normal): N49:56:55.0356 W119:22:44.7770 -- Forward
Taxipoint #1, type 1 (normal): N49:56:50.6947 W119:22:44.0576 -- Forward
Taxipoint #2, type 2 (Hold Short): N49:56:55.0032 W119:22:45.2227 -- Forward
Taxipoint #3, type 1 (normal): N49:56:54.9708 W119:22:45.6397 -- Forward
Taxipoint #4, type 1 (normal): N49:56:52.0877 W119:22:44.2879 -- Forward
Taxipoint #5, type 1 (normal): N49:56:52.0229 W119:22:45.1053 -- Forward
Taxipoint #6, type 1 (normal): N49:56:53.7074 W119:22:45.4062 -- Forward
Taxipoint #7, type 1 (normal): N49:56:55.8130 W119:22:45.7827 -- Forward
Parking Park1 [#G0]: N49:56:53.6426 W119:22:46.5021
Type 1 (GA Ramp), Size 20.0m, Hdg 84.6T
Parking Park2 [#G1]: N49:56:54.9060 W119:22:46.6874
Type 1 (GA Ramp), Size 20.0m, Hdg 85.1T
Parking Park3 [#G2]: N49:56:56.1694 W119:22:46.8675
Type 1 (GA Ramp), Size 20.0m, Hdg 85.1T
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=2, End#=0, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=3, End#=2, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Runway 17): Type 2 (Runway), Start#=4, End#=0, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Runway 17): Type 2 (Runway), Start#=4, End#=1, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=1, End#=5, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=4, End#=5, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 3 (Parking), Start#=3, End#=G0, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 3 (Parking), Start#=3, End#=G1, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=6, End#=5, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 1 (Taxi), Start#=6, End#=3, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 3 (Parking), Start#=6, End#=G0, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 4 (Path), Start#=7, End#=3, Wid=0.00m
Taxipath (Name #0): Type 3 (Parking), Start#=7, End#=G2, Wid=0.00m
Taxiname: #0 =
TaxiWay : 4-5-1
TaxiWay : G0-3-2-0
TaxiWay : G1-3-6-5
TaxiWay : G0-6
TaxiWay : G2-7-3
FSM A/P CYKG, lat=49.949734, long=-119.380043, alt=1409

-------------End of extract----------------



Ronzie, I am not familiar with the procedure you used to read the excludes. However, all Afcads begin with a set of exclude statements regardless of the program used to create them.

Ron: AFCAD 221 does that. Regular scenery creation and ADE9X may add them but the excludes may be removed before compiling. It is not mandatory unless you are moving an airport. AFCAD 221 basicly copies the default afd file (converts to xml for modification) places in the exclude based on the default coordinates or latest scenery by priority before the current scenery, adds back in your added and modified objects from the copy. (At the time AFCAD for FS9 was created, there was no scenery SDK so the short cut was to exclude everything regarding those items using the default coordinates. Some AFCAD creations do not follow the SDK rules that were later released.) I can tell you that in the RC database before adding this scenery and updating it CYKG existed and now it does not.

The lat/lon co-ordinates in Kelowna Glider af2_cykg.BGL are for Kelowna, not Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay.

Ron: I read the coordinates as N61.3 W071.55 in the default. In the glider afcad I read N49 58.98 W 119 22.8 for the runways (on Kelowna turf) but N61.3 W071.55 for the runways excuded. As for the 60 nm limitation that may be for an exclude statement with boundaries added to scenery.cfg. (As an aside if I open an AFX application created file I can see all of the excludes applied.) Anyway, an add-on application, which builds from installed scenery by priority, may lose CYKG. The OP stated he was having flight plan problems.

Ron: We noted in other topics that errant coordinates of a scenery object can show up in an area far away from the design airport including loss of objects. If the afd compiler used goes back to the previous indexed airport to get exclude coordinates, which in this case would be default CYKG, then the exclude polygon could have the mismatched coordinates for the current scenery. If FS does limit the influence of an exclude.bgl it may not show up in FS itself but it may provide errors say in Super Flight Planner which builds from the scenery database.

If Jon wanders by this thread (or anyone else that knows for sure) he can confirm that FS9 Afcads are limited in influence to, I believe, about 60 miles. Since Kelowna is 1700 miles from Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay this file has no impact on it.


Unless you consider things like aprons and runways visible objects.

Ron: Runways, taxiways, and parking are both visible objects and invisible. The invisible items are used for AI which uses them. The user aircraft see the visible objects. In the RC forum are postings where RC did not coordinate with AI in position nor recognize the user aircraft near enough to the runway for clearance. It often turned out that after adding a modified scenery was added the user forgot to rebuild the database. Even ignoring RC problems, there have been weird occurances of AI landing off to the side or even FS moving a user aircraft off to nowhere because the visible and invisible layers did not match.

Ron: Putting all of this aside I find it hard to believe it is OK to use an existing airport ICAO as a named airport property and not generate conflicts somewhere unless you are moving an airport in which case the exclude polygon objects and scenery objects should fall in the same area. If it does not affect FS itself, then it might have other application consequences.

peace,
the Bean

[StringBean]

Wow, ....that's a bunch to read and it's late so I will give it all fresh eyes tomorrow.

For now I will make 2 statements.

1) I don't have RC-Radar Contact?

2) With the Kelowna scenery installed and active Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay sill exists in all it's splendor and glory despite whatever info your program produced.

Radar Contact may think Kangiqsujuaq Wakeham Bay is gone, FS doesn't.

peace,
the Bean

[ronzie]

Still, on loading a kelowna flight the wrong name is given. The problem went away when the scenery was disabled or at least the glider afcad.

I am going to try in the next couple of days modifying the glider afcad with a different ID and see what happens. It's a good exercise for me using ADE9X. I'll reply here with the results.

I made this point about the deletion because add-on applications that build from the scenery might have this problem like some flight planners. RC was just an example. The OP stated he was having flight planning problems. Somewhere in this thread IYP was mentioned. Does this build from the scenery? I quote from the makerwys description of files created:

"RUNWAYS.XML (Airports and runways for "It's Your Plane")"



so RC is not the exclusive user of makerwys.

[ronzie]

I created an afd file to try in place of the glider afcad. It will eliminate the removal of airport CYKG from the databases of some applications. This forum will not let me attach the zip for some reason. Please see the included readme file for installation. A preliminary test of creating a flight with it and also using the utility used for rebuilding the indicated databases show all is corrected.

PM me with an e-mail address if you wish to test it and I'll send it.

Let me know how it works.

Create a fight now shows all four kelowna titles with correct ICAO for the main and the others for choppers and gliders. If your flight planner builds from the scenery database and you need to plan for a glider or chopper you can use the ICAO loaded with your chosen location.

The glider ICAO is now CYLG which is not used in FS9 defaults. Others are not changed. Just rebuild your scenery database in your application of choice.

[stankar]

Thanks for the info, Opa.
Stan


I would add that I use an overlay "airport" of my own for AI Helicopter traffic between Kelowna and Penticton and it presents no name problems on the Go To Airport dialogue either. My Kelowna overlay for Choppers is named AF2_CYL9.bgl.

The AI package I am referring to can be found in the library:

Name: ai_bc_up.zip (http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=117267) Size: 385,324 Date: 11-22-2007 Downloads: 539
http://www.flightsim.com/m/ai_bc_up.gif FS2004 Scenery--AI Helicopters At Penticton and Kelowna BC, Canada update. In response to several requests, this update provides out and back flights of the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter at Penticton and Kelowna, BC. One of the helicopters also makes round trips from these two cities several times a day. Prior installation of CH_CYYF.ZIP (http://www.flightsim.com/file.php?cm=SEARCH1&fsec=0&fname=CH_CYYF.ZIP) is required. The package includes a new invisible helicopter landing area at Kelowna, a ground cover enhancement for Kelowna and updated flight plans. This update has been tested with several Kelowna Airport enhancements and the default Kelowna setting with no apparent issues. The forward departure (no push backs) technique is employed at both helicopter landing/parking areas. Compiled for your flying enjoyment by David "Opa" Marshall.

[ronzie]

FYI:

The change I made to the glider afd layer will not affect helicopter AI since the those layers were not modified and keep their ICAO airport IDs. Only the glider AFD I created was modified with a new ICAO code which fixed problems in some apps besides RC for CYKG.

No changes were made on the main afcad as well.