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FOKite
12-20-2009, 01:25 PM
I am new to FS2004. I can just about fly the Douglas DC3 and land it but it just keeps rolling on past the runway into the trees when I try to stop. Brakes work fine with other aircraft. I use a joystick. Anything I can adjust or tweak?

ReggieF5421
12-20-2009, 01:36 PM
Brakes are always best when done proportionally from pedals.

But, with the DC-3 and tail draggers in general - once you are slow enough to put the tail on the ground, bring up the flaps and pull way, way back on the stick - use the elevator as a large air brake.

Make sure you have the tailwheel lock set.

opaplano
12-20-2009, 02:05 PM
Also be sure you are not attempting to land at a speed which is unrealistic. Check the kneeboard for recommendations.

When I first started flying the default DC3 (many years ago it seems) I kept collapsing the gear as I was coming in too fast and hard.

SPOFF
12-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Next time you land the Default DC-3, HOLD the Tail OFF the ground...and keep all the weight of the plane ON the main wheels only.....for as long as you can while applying the brakes. The tail will settle once the airspeed bleeds off. At the same time be carefull you don't "Nose Over". SPOFF

tatest
12-20-2009, 04:12 PM
Are you sure that you've touched down where you think you have?

If you are too fast coming into the flare, a lot of these old high-lift tail draggers will fly all the way down a 5000 foot runway in ground effect, even after you've chopped the power. DC-3, Ford, Fokker.

Brakes don't work until the wheels are firmly on the ground.

gander
12-20-2009, 11:42 PM
I too consider the brakes on FS9's default DC-3 unrealistically weak. I'd pretty much just adapted by using only long runways, telling myself they were coated with ice, and even then risking landing short every whiteknuckled time. But there is a FAR better solution.

If you have even the slightest DC-3 interest, do yourself a favor and get the MAAM version from http://www.maam.org/flightsim/PACKAGES/R4D.htm

In the MAAM sim the wheel brakes are much more effective (and thus more realistic, I believe) but that's just one of many improvements. I'm a relative newbie, and can't comment on the technical programming details, but I can tell you the MAAM product "feels" much more realistic throughout its entire flight range: takeoff, climb (and stall!), turning, short final and touchdown. In addition, there are "gadgets and gizmos" galore to play with -- yet the basic airplane is simple enough even a computer illiterate like me can thoroughly enjoy it right from the start.

I'd never willingly go back to the default DC-3.

StringBean
12-21-2009, 12:32 AM
From the default DC3 aircraft.cfg...

[brakes]
parking_brake = 1 //Parking brake available
toe_brakes_scale = 0.3 //Brake scalar

You could bump that number up to increase brake effect.

I would suggest changes of 0.2 at a time and test.

Be careful, too much brake and you'll end up on your nose.

peace,
the Bean

napamule2
12-21-2009, 01:37 AM
No brakes, that is. You will find that the default DC-3 air file's braking strength is equal to 0. Zero, zilch, nada, capput, mox nix. And paired with the cfg's toe_brake=0.3 then "how do you make it stop' is a very good question. Spoiler drag is also =0 in air and 0.0 in cfg. That leaves me with only one conclusion: MS did not want you to succeed with landing the DC-3, but DID want you to call CussTooMer Serbis-ine$$. No comment.

The DC-3 stalls at around 66 kts. And it's a tail dragger, so you worry about nose over on hard braking. The only thing that's left are the FLAPS. How about that. Is that not how they do it in 'real' anyway? Flaps with no drag (in air it's=to 45) with cycle time=0.0 (ie: no extension=no flaps). Bogus stuff. Full flaps is 44.0? Should be 66.0.

Increase the FLAPS 'DRAG_SCALAR=1.0' to 3.0. Mind you this is to stop you, so you may have to give throttle to stay at 70 kts over the fence and then cut throttle and full flaps when over threshold. Give it some UP PITCH TRIM as you approach to keep nose up and tail down a bit. Land level. It will slow stop. If you want to 'pretend' you are a 'Bush' pilot you can give it LOTS of up pitch trim and give throttle and push forward on stick to not stall, but stay nose up, until you're over spot you pick. Then stall it.

And DON'T lock your tail wheel. You are not parking it, you are landing it, and need to steer a little if crosswinded, etc. So what is needed is a new cfg and air file which will afford and reflect the 'reasonable' performance you expect. Anybody? (Ther may be one out there already but I do not know if there is.)
Chuck B
Napamule

DHC120
12-21-2009, 03:15 AM
And DON'T lock your tail wheel. You are not parking it, you are landing it, and need to steer a little if crosswinded, etc. So what is needed is a new cfg and air file which will afford and reflect the 'reasonable' performance you expect. Anybody? (Ther may be one out there already but I do not know if there is.)
Chuck B
Napamule

Chuck B;
I think opaplano's suggestion TO lock the Tail Wheel was intended to help a new flight-sim pilot to avoid zig-zagging all over the runway (airport?) during a (possibly) faster than normal landing.
The Default DC-3 is not a difficult plane to handle (like the P-51), but with any A$$ Dragger, they take a bit of getting use to.
Personally, I appreciate your Airfile info.. I do fly the DC-3 (and other "nose high" warbirds and have always felt the FS9 toe-brakes settings were NOT realistic.. I plan on adjusting them accordingly..
Thanks.
Charles B.

johnhinson
12-21-2009, 05:20 AM
The MS Flight Dynamics are unrealistic in a number of respects. I would recommend using an alternative set of FDEs - you can get some here:
http://www.douglasdc3.com/fs2004/fs2004.htm . You will need to scroll down some distance, it is a long page.

With these, or the MAAM-SIM model, you should find the tail drops gently after touch-down. You shouldn't apply much brake without all three on the ground - this will avoid both a nose-over and dropping the tail hard and slamming your passengers' botties hard in the seats.


And DON'T lock your tail wheel. You are not parking it, you are landing it, and need to steer a little if crosswinded, etc. The DC-3 Flight Manual says you should lock the tail wheel when landing. Locking the tail wheel is to stop veer, not for parking.

John

FearlessTower
12-21-2009, 06:01 AM
The MS Flight Dynamics are unrealistic in a number of respects. I would recommend using an alternative set of FDEs - you can get some here:
http://www.douglasdc3.com/fs2004/fs2004.htm . You will need to scroll down some distance, it is a long page.

With these, or the MAAM-SIM model, you should find the tail drops gently after touch-down. You shouldn't apply much brake without all three on the ground - this will avoid both a nose-over and dropping the tail hard and slamming your passengers' botties hard in the seats.

The DC-3 Flight Manual says you should lock the tail wheel when landing. Locking the tail wheel is to stop veer, not for parking.

John

John is correct about the tailwheel lock. Standard procedure for the DC-3 (and it's required per the checklist) is to lock the tailwheel prior to take-off and you don't unlock it until you are ready to turn off the runway. It is also common practice to lock the tailwheel on long straight taxi-ways to make taxiing easier - there is a saying out there that if you can taxi a DC-3, you can probably fly it.

Also, a note on brakes for the DC-3 - Standard landing for a DC-3 is a wheel landing - you will almost never see a DC-3 do a 3-point. In the DC-3, you can land on the mains and as long as the tail is still 'flying', you can apply some serious brake pressure without a nose-over. If you have ever seen a DC-3 perform a short field landing, it comes darn near to a complete stop before the tail drops down - a little jarring to those in the back, but most pax carriers don't need to do short-field landings. Once the tail is down, however, over-braking can indeed cause a nose-over like any other taildragger.

When you land the DC-3 (as with any tail-dragger doing a wheel landing) you actually apply some forward yoke pressure when the mains touchdown and keep the tail in the air bleeding off speed until it is ready to come down on its own (as SPOFF describes).....you don't pull back and force it there.

All that aside....Having flown the actual DC-3, I can definitely say that the default DC-3 flight dynamics are unrealistic. The MAAM DC-3 is actually a VERY realistic model with one minor exception (ailerons in the MAAM DC-3 are FAR more effective than in the real thing).

FOKite
12-21-2009, 12:27 PM
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions re DC3 brakes. I'm off now to try out some of the options and will report on progress.

napamule2
12-21-2009, 05:55 PM
Ok, John, perhaps I was too hasty with that advice. I belive you. (But I would belive you more if you changed that avatar-just kidding. How do you like my 'protential' avatar?).
Chuck B
Napamule

Till
12-22-2009, 04:44 PM
I installed the FDE from douglasdc3 website that Johnhinson suggested. It solved my problem trying to stop in time at KAVX Catalina airport. With the default DC3 I couldn't always bring it to a stop before falling off the cliff at the end of the runway. BTW, DC3s do actually land there.

Andy71
12-22-2009, 04:48 PM
I installed the FDE from douglasdc3 website that Johnhinson suggested. It solved my problem trying to stop in time at KAVX Catalina airport. With the default DC3 I couldn't always bring it to a stop before falling off the cliff at the end of the runway. BTW, DC3s do actually land there.

I'll be giving that a try too I think having recently over running and ending up in a ditch with the tail in the air.

Initially I was annoyed at the botched landing but was soon amused by ATC handing me over to ground then telling me where to park while the aeroplane was amost upside down.

pedmond
12-22-2009, 04:48 PM
Ok, John, perhaps I was too hasty with that advice. I belive you. (But I would belive you more if you changed that avatar-just kidding. How do you like my 'protential' avatar?).
Chuck B
Napamule

1. Who is that
and
2. Is she alive??!!??

napamule2
12-22-2009, 08:35 PM
I too am going to KAVX and fly my DC-3 I converted to Turbo (I have reverse thrust-ha) in there. Amatuers! (hehe).

JH,
Who said it was a 'She'? Who is it? (Your mama? (just kidding)). It's some poor ancient, probably 90+ yr old WWII veteran, senile, with dementia, scared, lonely and can't sim anymore . Could be ME 30 yrs from now. Happy Holidays to all.
Chuck B
Napamule
(That's me now (on Left). See simularity-maybe?)

Avechelice
12-22-2009, 10:45 PM
Hello,


Could be ME 30 yrs from now

Napamule .. you will be very interested by this page !!

Don't guess more ... see the reality :)

http://www.aprilage.com/april_software.html

Regards.http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/belga2004/SpecialNOEL/xsgs_9080.gif

napamule2
12-23-2009, 11:43 PM
That 'ship' don't apply to me. I am 69 1/2 yrs old now. They can't do my looks (for my age) any justice. Or it didn't look like it, to me. I get a sense that these are just gimmicks to get you to go look at advertisements. What do you think? You are promoting a COMMERCIAL? And a rather silly 'concept' to boot? Get real.
Chuck B
Napamule

SPOFF
12-24-2009, 08:32 PM
That 'ship' don't apply to me. I am 69 1/2 yrs old now. They can't do my looks (for my age) any justice. Or it didn't look like it, to me. I get a sense that these are just gimmicks to get you to go look at advertisements. What do you think? You are promoting a COMMERCIAL? And a rather silly 'concept' to boot? Get real.
Chuck B
Napamule


Hey NAPA: That picture you posted of yourself don't look like no 69 1/2...Somethin ain't right here....NO..? My guess is you are maybe 50-55. No offence intended. :) Cheers: SPOFF

napamule2
12-24-2009, 10:14 PM
Well, it's ME. Pic taken earlier this year. I always looked younger than my age (sorry). It's in the 'Jeans' (hehe). I am proof positive what regular excercise can do. I ran 10 miles every day from when I was 15 yrs old to 20 yrs old (when I joined the Air Force-where I hitched a ride on a DC-3 from San Antonio to Biloxi, Mississippi (Electronics School) where I was assigned after basic training (This is for the DC-3 THREAD topic)). I missed a few days a year (Christmas, Thanksgiving, floods and/or tornado weather, and my Birthday ('dbl helping of cake and ice cream please').

Hard physical work after that. Plus hiking, camping, fishing, gardening, swimming (I can do a mean dive off the board even today. A '1 1/2 with a twist' used to be easy-now the 'twist' MIGHT result in a wrenched back, so I don't do dat no more) for recreation. I work hard and I play hard. Care for some One on One hoops? How's a game of 8 ball billards? So don't waste your time on 'video games' until you get to 60, like I did. Get busy.
Chuck B
Napamule

FOKite
01-21-2010, 02:17 PM
From the default DC3 aircraft.cfg...

[brakes]
parking_brake = 1 //Parking brake available
toe_brakes_scale = 0.3 //Brake scalar

You could bump that number up to increase brake effect.

I would suggest changes of 0.2 at a time and test.

Be careful, too much brake and you'll end up on your nose.

peace,
the Bean

Hi
Thanks for your input and apologies for the delay in replying. Where do I look in FS9 for this reference, i.e. what/where is default DC3 cfg?

StringBean
01-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Hi
Thanks for your input and apologies for the delay in replying. Where do I look in FS9 for this reference, i.e. what/where is default DC3 cfg?

...Flight Sim 9\Aircraft\Douglas_DC3\aircraft.cfg

You can edit that file with Notepad, back up a copy before making any changes.

peace,
the Bean

Avechelice
01-21-2010, 03:16 PM
Hello,

toe_brakes_scale = 0.3 //Brake scalar

0.4

Work great for me (when you land at the required speed :) )

Regards.http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a/bye.gif