Tower Simulator

[BushPilot]

Bought it and it doesnt work. Checked out their website but the problem is not listed. anyway this is the message given. Am using Vista 32bit... 2GIG ram etc... Anyone have similar problem? Will ask on their website later one when i come back. Giving it a shot here, here is the pic...

[wdscobie]

Tower by feelThere/wilco support forum -

http://forum.iemit.com

after registration read/search/post in 'feelthere Tower simulator forum'.


FYI: most issues come from lack of a video card (ie, A card not an 'accelerator'); failure to turn off VISTA's 'secruity'; and failure to allow communication between Tower's components.


--

[BushPilot]

Thanks, I am going to do it now.

[BushPilot]

Thanks a lot it works i just i just have to make it load

[frozen]

Bought it and it doesnt work.
I think you were about right first time. Sorry you didn't read reviews and feedback various and have now wasted your money.

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?t=181898&highlight=tower+simulator - the latter points are especially revealing.

Now your hardware has allowed you to use the software, I'd be interested in your opinion.

[BushPilot]

I think you were about right first time. Sorry you didn't read reviews and feedback various and have now wasted your money.

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?t=181898&highlight=tower+simulator - the latter points are especially revealing.

Now your hardware has allowed you to use the software, I'd be interested in your opinion.

I read those threads (too late now) and I am disappointed in the product. FSX (demo version) and FS2004(best) run way better on my PC than this Tower Sim. FS Default ATC sounds way better. I dont mind typing in the commands as I can type really fast, but the ATC voice is a BIG turnoff, I cannot tolerate that voice.

I am going to go back to this old atc sim (air command 3.0), its more of a game than a sim but it keeps me busy and on the edge, with max difficulty.

http://pc.gamezone.com/gamesell/p17586.htm

[frozen]

I'd recommend this one for a very realistic radar sim: http://www.atcsimulator.com/
It's fiddly to begin with, but once you master the commands, and after a bit of practice, quite challenging. Also, BAO's Tower is now freely downloadable and, I think, manages to hold interest infinitely longer than Tower Simulator.

One more thing - if you contact Wilco and ask for your money back, they'll refuse, but the fact that you did might come in useful for a dispute I've lodged with the European Consumer Centre regarding their terms of sale. No promises, but you've nothing [more] to lose by asking and retaining your request.

[BushPilot]

I'd recommend this one for a very realistic radar sim: http://www.atcsimulator.com/
It's fiddly to begin with, but once you master the commands, and after a bit of practice, quite challenging. Also, BAO's Tower is now freely downloadable and, I think, manages to hold interest infinitely longer than Tower Simulator.

One more thing - if you contact Wilco and ask for your money back, they'll refuse, but the fact that you did might come in useful for a dispute I've lodged with the European Consumer Centre regarding their terms of sale. No promises, but you've nothing [more] to lose by asking and retaining your request.

Just bought the full version of ATC Simulator 2 and am loving it...

[frozen]

Just bought the full version of ATC Simulator 2 and am loving it...
Glad to hear it.

Someone also posted this link on another forum. It's a Japanese tower sim due out soon. Hang your head in shame again Wilco - this one looks very nice.
http://www.technobrain.com/20050105/etc/freedemo/streaming/atc3rjoo.html

[frozen]

Further to post 7, the European Consumer Centre just got back to me, and said software is exempt from the distance selling directive, so congratulations Wilco, you got away with selling complete rubbish at a high price. They did say I could pursue a case at county court, but unless the large number of disgruntled customers I've encountered want to form a coalition, I'm going to restrict my action to deterring others on fora such as this.

I take consolation in knowing that Tower Simulator will ultimately come to haunt Wilco in the long run, and it has and will do their reputation major harm. Whenever Wilco products come up for discussion I plan to remind all and sundry of Tower Simulator, and the decision to exploit customers with their one-way sales policy. I am also reasonably sure that Wilco, including members of the development team such as wdscobie, know they've made a boo boo, and have decided upon a strategy of 'try and get away with it'; in the latter's case choosing to latch upon irrelevance in detractor's posts as opposed to properly responding to issues raised. That nobody has engaged me in proper debate should speak volumes to anyone considering buying Tower Simulator.

Moderators - I appreciate that my tone is somewhat antagonistic, but I urge you to allow this post to stand, as Wilco have crossed a distinct and significant line when they released Tower Simulator. They decided upon a quick buck, as opposed to honouring the trust placed in them by the FS community, and they cannot be allowed to get away with it.

[BushPilot]

I like the idea of try before you buy when it comes to software, as with ATC Simulator 2 I only had a limited number of airports (3-4) i dont remember because i deleted it, and installed the full paid version. I like their interface too, its very easy to learn. I still havent worked out the mic interface, but that is next on the agenda when i got some time.

[frozen]

I like the idea of try before you buy when it comes to software, as with ATC Simulator 2 I only had a limited number of airports (3-4) i dont remember because i deleted it, and installed the full paid version. I like their interface too, its very easy to learn. I still havent worked out the mic interface, but that is next on the agenda when i got some time.
I certainly wouldn't ever buy anything again that isn't try before you buy, following my Tower Simulator debarkle, and I certainly won't buy Wilco again, no matter how good the reviews. There are quite a few who have commented the same.

As for interfaces, it's important to make them not necessarily easy to use, but logical and heplful to the user, so as not to detract from the simulation. BAO Tower's textual controls aren't a thousand miles from Tower Simulator's, but the latter omitted an input mask that inserted the necessary spaces for syntax, making it much easier to make a typo. Moreover, as I've said elsewhere, it would have shown thought if the developer had allocated logical keys to various commands, CTRL-T for takeoff, CTRL-X for taxi etc, yet they decided upon ALT-3 and SHIFT-H etc.

While the programming, lack of gameplay and countless other things have been poorly done in Tower Simulator, in some ways the most irritating things are the ones they remembered, but then went on to just sling together, in an obvious rush to get the sim to market. Again, mentioned elsewhere, the list of shortcuts comes to 30-something, yet they could have easily halved this by deleting irrelevent commands. They don't quite have one for asking an aircraft its colour, but some of the included commands are as appropriate.

But ultimately BushPilot, in response to your comment, the reason Wilco didn't release a demo is all too obvious now, isn't it?

[BushPilot]

The commands can even further be simplified!

Ctrl = Key in the mic

Select A/C with mouse

(left arrow) + three digit number (turn left heading 360)
(down arrow) + three digit number (Descend and Maintain 100, [10,000])

etc...

[mgh]

As I said in another forum the European Directly specifically excluded unsealed software from the right to a refund.

Also, Wilco's published policy is:

"RETURN POLICY

If your purchase arrived damaged, is not what you ordered or is defective, please contact us to receive a Return Authorization. Returns without a prior authorization from Wilco Publishing will not be accepted. If you want, unopened product may be returned for store credit or exchange, less shipping charges. Open item is not returnable unless proven defective. Incomplete or items damaged in return shipping are subject to 30% restocking fee"

This seems reasonable and compliant with legal requirements.

Usual disclaimers.

[frozen]

It is certainly not what I ordered, was arguably defective on original release with little improvement to v1.2, and the standard of the product is not reasonable.

Put another way, are you suggesting that I should be allowed to cobble together a program, sell it based on empty hype and complicated-sounding ATC terminology/procedure that doesn't even feature in the sim, and make a quick getaway with a one-way sales policy?

You're probably going to answer 'yes', but my point is it isn't right. I can't accuse Wilco of anything illegal, but morally they're absolutely bankrupt.

[mgh]

There is a major difference between defective and [not meeting your expectations. To show it's defective you need to demonstrate that it fails to meet the actual statements made about it and the developer's website. Given the vaguesness of these I suggest you'd find it difficult with any software. In this context, what exactly do you mean by "complicated-sounding ATC terminology/procedure that doesn't even feature in the sim"?

[frozen]

There is a major difference between defective and [not meeting your expectations. To show it's defective you need to demonstrate that it fails to meet the actual statements made about it and the developer's website. Given the vaguesness of these I suggest you'd find it difficult with any software. In this context, what exactly do you mean by "complicated-sounding ATC terminology/procedure that doesn't even feature in the sim"?
mgh, I totally understand your point. Out of interest, have you seen Tower Simulator?

The one part of the manual that I think is misleading is where it delves into the 'Theory Behind Air Traffic Control', which goes into stuff like wake turbulence separation categories, parallel runway operations and even a section on controlling arrivals - all of which mean nothing in the game. Right after this is a section of irrelevant definitions - I say irrelevant as they do not feature whatsoever in the game.

As the original Tower Simulator wouldn't have noticed if you'd had half a dozen aircraft on the runway at once - something I think they claim to have fixed - more subtle aspects of controlling, as listed above, are somewhat irrelevant to the game. You may ask why I include 'controlling arrivals' in my list of pointless explanations, and the reason I do is because when an aircraft calls up, all you do is give it clearance to land or not (in the latter case it's not immediately obvious how you get an aircraft back on approach, especially when equipped with the hopeless, cumbersome interface, so common sense says to give it the runway).

I need to be clear here; I've never complained about a piece of software of any kind in 10+ years of computing/simming, and have sometimes bought software that doesn't meet my fairly reasonable expectations - but it's made an effort to. I've also bought bargain software with the understanding that you get what you pay for, and wasted some more cash. But Wilco/Feel There entered a new league with Tower Simulator; it's design is rubbish, failing to even learn from earlier, successful, sims like BAO Tower; it's graphics are very weak, the level of simulation atrocious, the gameplay non-existent; the AI voice infuriating. There is nothing that justifies its release, let alone its original pricetag, and I am very angry that I've been sold absolute rubbish.

Now, while I understand your argument that my assessment is subjective - something Wilco themselves say, quoting an obscure Italian site that gave it 9/10 and an American magazine that made some mysteriously positive comments (the latter I checked with the publisher, and they are true, albeit the publisher says extremely selective), many other users on forums like this have been almost universal in their condemnation of the product. Again, subjective, but had I the time and budget, worth taking to court over as a test case.

While I also understand that the market will ultimately evolve, closing down monkeys like Wilco as customers walk away, this whoel debarkle has flagged up to me the need for consumer protection when buying software online. Accordingly, I've already written to my MP and the EU Trade Dept explaining this case, which is relevant whether you believe Wilco ripped me off or not.

[mgh]

I assume you didn't/couldn't read the manual until after you'd bought the simulation. Therefore what it says is irrelevant to your decision to purchase.

All the Wilco site says about procedures is:

"Based on actual FAA and European regulations"

Which is pretty meaningless. Can you demonstrate that the simulation doesn't comply with that statement? I doubt it, given the use of the wordbased.

Look again at the other statements on the Wilco site - surely they are all as vague and indeterminate as that one. My point is that a dispassionate reading of the site (as well as many other developers' sites) brings out the same point. In order to justify a complaint you need to show that the product doesn't comply with the developers actual claims. The fact that your expectations were higher doesn't affect that - if you chose to read more into the statements than they actually said that's your problem. No form of consumer regulation will provide protection unless you can demonstrate that the developer made false statements.

The old maxim of caveat emptor still applies, even to flight simulator products.

[pipersam]

The product is useless, as well as the company. I've never had joy out of WiloPub, all been a bit of a rip off for what you get. Go download BAO Tower for free, you maybe controlling 727's instead of A330's but its amazingly realistic compared to Wilco and feeltheres effort. For those interested you can get it here as abandonware http://www.scenery.org/atc_sims.htm. Works on XP, havn't tried on vista!

Sam.

[frozen]

I assume you didn't/couldn't read the manual until after you'd bought the simulation. Therefore what it says is irrelevant to your decision to purchase.

All the Wilco site says about procedures is:

"Based on actual FAA and European regulations"

Which is pretty meaningless. Can you demonstrate that the simulation doesn't comply with that statement? I doubt it, given the use of the wordbased.

Look again at the other statements on the Wilco site - surely they are all as vague and indeterminate as that one. My point is that a dispassionate reading of the site (as well as many other developers' sites) brings out the same point. In order to justify a complaint you need to show that the product doesn't comply with the developers actual claims. The fact that your expectations were higher doesn't affect that - if you chose to read more into the statements than they actually said that's your problem. No form of consumer regulation will provide protection unless you can demonstrate that the developer made false statements.

The old maxim of caveat emptor still applies, even to flight simulator products.
You're right about the manual - it wasn't initially available until a couple of months after release. I gather then that Wilco saw the manual as an opportunity to erroneously big-up the product and boost sales, as it then became available on their site. With regards to their promotional claims, the only one that stands out as being a ridiculous claim is: Advanced aircraft behaviors based on manufacturers' flying characteristics and official aeronautical procedures. In no way do the computer model aircraft act anything like real aircraft, while the only thing they do that bears resemblance to official aeronautical procedures is appear to land on what is supposed to be a runway - not with any regard to ATC terminal procedure or the use of any correct voice procedure I might add! The game claims to have input from real world controllers, but as far as I can see their advice was restricted to the colour of the airport buildings etc.

Many of the promotional statements are vague, but not untrue. The bit they missed was that each and every one of the features are done extremely badly.

[Trev]

Yes Tower Simulator is very buggy, but once you learn about them there are work arounds.
I enjoy playing it very much. Probibly spend a couple of hours a day playing it, but this well be the first and last progam I well buy from Wilco Pub / Feel There. After visiting and posting on these forums for about 10 years this is the first lemon product I have bought. Life is to short to carry on like frozen has. Live to learn with it that you have bought a bad product, I have. As for another patch to fix all the problems, I don't think there well be one as I think to get it to go properly would need a major rewrite of the code.
Yes I got the email about that new Jap Tower Sim, looks nice but won't buy it to exspensive $147 NZ. I also have ATC2 which I never got to grips with but might reinstall it and give it another go.
:)

[Stansy]

I've bought nearly every aircraft model Wilco has published, and with exception of the 777, I really enjoy them all. They are average to great but each one works nicely once you understand its quirks. (again except for 777).

I bought Tower Sim (CD version) and pre-ordered it by 5 months, as I was SO excited to play a new ATC simulation. I've got about 1000 hours in on BAO's Tower and another couple hundred on the ATC 2 Simulator Pro edition. These are fantastic products in their own right and time.

Tower Simulator v1.1 is klunky, corny and boring. The atc voices are unbearable. I wasted $80 on it. I am very disappointed in Wilco for this one.

But, as I said, I still really enjoy my:
737 PIC
Legacy
Airbus 1
Airbus 2
ERJ
CRJ
and E-Jets

/end of balanced review.

[frozen]

Life is to short to carry on like frozen has. Live to learn with it that you have bought a bad product, I have.
I'm very much a believer in right and wrong - a crusader if you will - and while I can afford to write-off £47, I'm sure many more people can't. I can see why you might think I am somewhat obsessed - I don't disagree in some ways - but as a point of principle I'll cause as much mischief as I can for the rogue vendor so they think twice next time and/or it costs them their reputation in future, try my best to explore ways to get my money back, and warn any other potential buyers of the rubbish they're peddling. And while Tower Simulator was the first real lemon I've bought from the non-budget shelf, I've actually kind of enjoyed seeing people refer to my review and thank me for saving their cash. Were my efforts worth £46? Perhaps not, but I got limited revenge against Wilco, and the thanks of a handful of prospects whose minds I changed.

That said, I'll close by saying that if you don't redress vendors for releasing rubbish, you're simply part of the problem. :cool: