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View Full Version : How to know what SID/STAR ?



SOAR14
09-04-2008, 11:39 PM
Each airport has a list of SID's/STAR's so how do I know what route that I want to take?

ronzie
09-05-2008, 01:37 AM
SIDs:

The first consideration is to consider the best route to join your enroute direction. Some SIDs will serve multiple runways and others may be runway specific with possibly eventually leading to some common waypoints of SIDs traversing the same departure direction. At some point a SID will join an airway at a common waypoint. This is called the transition point and becomes the secondary part of the SID name at times.

STARs:

Look for STARs serving your arrival direction. As with SIDs some serve multiple runways and others in whole or part serve specific runways. Many end in a common waypoint in which the description states "expect radar vectors to ..." They can also terminate at an IAF, the waypoint at which and Instrument Approach Procedure begins (IAP) if it is included. In this case the pilot may be requested to fly the published IAP. In this case pick the STAR that might take you to the IAF for your IAP. Some IAFs may serve more than one instrument approach. Like SIDs one or more transition waypoints may reside on an airway and lead you to the common waypoints of the STAR. These on filing also become part of the STAR label.

In the FAA territories SIDs and STARs are called Terminal Procedures.

Where terminal procedure radar vectors are available ATC may at its discretion vector you off a STAR and line you up for an approach.

You can get more information from the FAA's Instrument Procedure Handbook available also on liner here:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/

tommchowat
09-05-2008, 07:43 AM
There are also clues as dictated in your flightplan. In most cases (but by no means all cases) the first and last waypoints on your flightplan correspond to the SID or STAR that you are to use. An example is if I want to depart London Heathrow, and my first waypoint is WOBUN, then it'll be a WOB2F SID if departing from 27L, or a WOB2G SID if departing from 27R. It's the same principal for STARs... if I'm arriving at EGLL and the last waypoing on my flightplan is LAM, then it'll be a LAM3A (usually when arriving from the east, but there are a few other variants of the Lamborn arrival) for one of the 27s.

In real life it'll be the clearance delivery that'll give you your SID. Something like, "Shuttle 9 Alpha, cleared to Edinburgh as filed, flightplan route, Wobun 2 Golf departure from 27R, initial climb to 6000 feet, squawk 2334".
Then it's the same principal for the star. It'll be the controller that'll tell you your arrival before handing you off to approach, something like, "Shuttle 9 Alpha, Lamborn 3 Alpha arrival for 27L, descend and maintain FL100 level by Lamborn".
Of course this doesn't happen in FS, which is why I only fly VATSIM.

SOAR14
09-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the help. I am trying to get familiar with departure/approach so I halfway know what I'm doing on vatsim. So far I have only flown at night when limited ATC has been online.

Nealoc187
09-06-2008, 11:08 AM
if you fly using real world weather and you fly in the united states, you can use www.flightaware.com on the resources page to look up flight plans that have recently been filed between your intended airports which will generally include the SID and STAR. Wind direction will often play a role in which sid/star is used as many of them are used for a certain landing direction or runway configuration.

jvile
09-07-2008, 08:12 AM
snip......
Then it's the same principal for the star. It'll be the controller that'll tell you your arrival before handing you off to approach, something like, "Shuttle 9 Alpha, Lamborn 3 Alpha arrival for 27L, descend and maintain FL100 level by Lamborn".
Of course this doesn't happen in FS, which is why I only fly VATSIM.

The FS9 default ATC system is only as good as the User that understands it. We continue to see post where the Users tells everyone that the FS9 ATC will not do something before they even explore all the possibilities that FS9 ATC offers.

The Lamborn 3A Arrival is not 10,000 ft but the charts I am looking at are to cross the Lamborn VOR at 7000 ft. inbound to the IAF (CI27L) for RWY 27L. You file the LOGAN, TRIPO, SABER, BRASO Waypoints and the LAM VOR into the last part of your FS9 default Flightplan Utility. As you descend on your FP which is the actual STAR arrival ATC is going to tell you 27R is the active runway and will instruct by default to use the novice handholding vectors to final to runway 27R.

You must tell the FS9 ATC that you are better schooled then the default ATC procedures of FS9 and request the LAM Transition arrival for RWY 27L. FS9 ATC will honor your request and clear you direct to the LAM VOR and also tell you to descend to 7000 ft. Once established on the last part of the LAM Transition off the LAM STAR the FS9 ATC will tell you to contact the tower when established on the ILS approach.

I do not need Vatsim to tell me to fly the LAM Arrival when FS9 ATC will do the same thing. The FS9 ATC database is very clear and precise as per the following but you the Pilot must be knowledgeable to interact with ATC correctly.

<Approach
type="ILS"
runway="27"
designator="LEFT"
etc.
etc.
<Transition
transitionType="FULL"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
altitude="7000.0F">
<TransitionLegs>
<Leg
type="IF"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="7000.0F" />
<Leg
type="FC"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
flyOver="TRUE"
recommendedType="VOR"
recommendedRegion="EG"
recommendedIdent="LAM"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="234"
distance="15.8N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="2500.0F" />
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="CI27L"
flyOver="FALSE"
recommendedType="LOCALIZER"
recommendedIdent="ILL"
theta="92.6"
rho="9.7N"
magneticCourse="273"
distance="3.0N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="2500.0F" />
</TransitionLegs>
</Transition>

If you fly with AI Planes then ATC knows (based on your request) you are smarter then the general Novice Pilot and gives you precedence over all landing AI Planes. This means you are not vectored on any extended downwind based on a pecking order of who comes first on final since you have now been removed from the list of seperation and given priority for the IAF of the 27L ILS.

Disneyflyer
09-07-2008, 09:01 AM
I use to be scared with Sids/Stars when it came to ATC flying on VATSIM. What I did is went to a pilot shop and bought Terminal Procedure books for the areas that I liked to fly. I would then decide where I wanted to fly from and to and then looked in the book.

DFW was my usual start point so I opened up that book. Looked at the winds and determined what direction I would depart to, then used the SID page to get me the headed in the right direction. On the arrivial city, I did the reverse. After I got my SID/STARS entered, then I would use the internal FS flight planner to connect the routes on airways.

The books are fairly inexpensive and a great tool.

I hope this suggestion helps you.

xxmikexx
09-07-2008, 09:41 AM
Another great source for this kind of thing is Sporty's Pilot Shop, http://www.sportys.com. Sporty's also sells sets of, and subscriptions to, a variety of official FAA charts, at prices that are only a little higher than those of FAA/NACO. I bought my high altitude enroute charts through Sporty's and am very pleased with them.

Finally re Sporty's, if you buy even something small you'll be put on their catalog mailing list. As I recall the catalog comes out every three months. It's certainly much more interesting bathroom reading than Reader's Digest. :)

tommchowat
09-07-2008, 10:52 AM
The FS9 default ATC system is only as good as the User that understands it. We continue to see post where the Users tells everyone that the FS9 ATC will not do something before they even explore all the possibilities that FS9 ATC offers.

The Lamborn 3A Arrival is not 10,000 ft but the charts I am looking at are to cross the Lamborn VOR at 7000 ft. inbound to the IAF (CI27L) for RWY 27L. You file the LOGAN, TRIPO, SABER, BRASO Waypoints and the LAM VOR into the last part of your FS9 default Flightplan Utility. As you descend on your FP which is the actual STAR arrival ATC is going to tell you 27R is the active runway and will instruct by default to use the novice handholding vectors to final to runway 27R.

You must tell the FS9 ATC that you are better schooled then the default ATC procedures of FS9 and request the LAM Transition arrival for RWY 27L. FS9 ATC will honor your request and clear you direct to the LAM VOR and also tell you to descend to 7000 ft. Once established on the last part of the LAM Transition off the LAM STAR the FS9 ATC will tell you to contact the tower when established on the ILS approach.

I do not need Vatsim to tell me to fly the LAM Arrival when FS9 ATC will do the same thing. The FS9 ATC database is very clear and precise as per the following but you the Pilot must be knowledgeable to interact with ATC correctly.

<Approach
type="ILS"
runway="27"
designator="LEFT"
etc.
etc.
<Transition
transitionType="FULL"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
altitude="7000.0F">
<TransitionLegs>
<Leg
type="IF"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="7000.0F" />
<Leg
type="FC"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="LAM"
flyOver="TRUE"
recommendedType="VOR"
recommendedRegion="EG"
recommendedIdent="LAM"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="234"
distance="15.8N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="2500.0F" />
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="EG"
fixIdent="CI27L"
flyOver="FALSE"
recommendedType="LOCALIZER"
recommendedIdent="ILL"
theta="92.6"
rho="9.7N"
magneticCourse="273"
distance="3.0N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="2500.0F" />
</TransitionLegs>
</Transition>

If you fly with AI Planes then ATC knows (based on your request) you are smarter then the general Novice Pilot and gives you precedence over all landing AI Planes. This means you are not vectored on any extended downwind based on a pecking order of who comes first on final since you have now been removed from the list of seperation and given priority for the IAF of the 27L ILS.


I am fully aware about the details of the LAM3A SID, I was just giving a very quick example, so the altitudes weren't correct, there was no real need for detail there. Whilst looking up what waypoints the LAM3A entails and manually entering them into the default FS9 flightplanner is a good way to do it, I would say that it is a bit of a mission. Also a bit of a mission to TELL the default ATC that you want this arrival rather than them letting you know without a request.

Of course people who don't fly on VATSIM usually settle for default vectoring, or follow your method that you described, but I was getting the point across that if you want it as real as it'll get, VATSIM is the way to do it (provided that controllers are online!)

jvile
09-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Whilst looking up what waypoints the LAM3A entails and manually entering them into the default FS9 flightplanner is a good way to do it, I would say that it is a bit of a mission. Also a bit of a mission to TELL the default ATC that you want this arrival rather than them letting you know without a request.

You have the STAR/Approach plate sitting in front of you. You do not enter the STAR manually into the FS9 Flightplanner. When the window for the FP opens you simply drag the line to each waypoint with the mouse and it snaps to the waypoint. The mouseover also tells you the name of the waypoint before you snap to it. That is called FP planning. It took all of 15 secs to create the FP from EHAM to EGLL by way of the LAM3A STAR arrival which both the FS9 enroute and approach controllers honor.

How much of a mission is it to tell the FS9 ATC to standby so you can select the Transition and a different runway? About 5 secs or so.

What you said was


It'll be the controller that'll tell you your arrival before handing you off to approach, something like, "Shuttle 9 Alpha, Lamborn 3 Alpha arrival for 27L, descend and maintain FL100 level by Lamborn".
Of course this doesn't happen in FS, which is why I only fly VATSIM.

If you say FS9 does not do something then I will show it does and back it up with all the details. If you want to use Vatsim that is fine but don't tell us that you are using Vatsim because FS9 ATC cannot do something based on what you think.

tommchowat
09-07-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm not saying that what you've done isn't clever, I certainly didn't know about it, and it's a good way to do things. But what I want is complete realism. Overall when it comes to ATC phraseology, Vatsim is the closest you'll get. I'm saying that, although you can "manually" enter whatever STAR you want and get the FS9 ATC to understand that, it won't automatically assign you a STAR like in real life, nor will it assign you a SID, as in real life.

I think that if someone wants to learn about SIDs and STARs like the original thread poster, FS9 default ATC is not the way to do it. I think the way to do it is to look at some approach charts, correspond it to a real life (realistic) flightplan, and then understand how real life ATC will interact with you on this arrival.