What if, one day, you woke up.....

[tailboom]

where ever you may be on this planet, and the U.S. was no longer Mr. Nice Guy...???...

We've never been an aggressor nation. Never conquered lands, nor enforced policy at the tip of a war head.

But what if...?...

One day we've just had enough. We don't need to lose one American to eliminate S'odom Insane. Ooops, no more Bugdad...Boom

Oil embargo, oops, no more OPEC....! Boom

Well the world court, or the un could stop us...??.... Ooops....
you know the rest.....

Amazing thing multiplication..As in X# of subs TIMES X# of missles TIMES X# of MULTIPLE warheads = Lots of 'BOOM'

Ain't nobody could stop it...!!...

Well God certainly wouldn't let that happen...??...

What if He's had enough too...??...

A dog only lets ya kick it so long, then he bites...

Keep kick'n this 'ole dog....

...Hizzoner P. Wigley Esq. P.C.
:-lol http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d5da9c5238f33e0.jpg :-lol
Meet 'Infidelicus Extraordinarus'...aka...Hizzoner

[Biff]

>where ever you may be on
>this planet, and the U.S.
>was no longer Mr. Nice
>Guy...???...
>
>We've never been an aggressor nation.
>Never conquered lands, nor enforced
>policy at the tip of
>a war head.
>
>But what if...?...
>
>One day we've just had enough.
>We don't need to lose
>one American to eliminate S'odom
>Insane. Ooops, no more Bugdad...Boom
>
>
>Oil embargo, oops, no more OPEC....!
>Boom
>
>Well the world court, or the
>un could stop us...??.... Ooops....
>
>you know the rest.....
>
>Amazing thing multiplication..As in X# of
>subs TIMES X# of missles
>TIMES X# of MULTIPLE warheads
>= Lots of 'BOOM'
>
>Ain't nobody could stop it...!!...
>
>Well God certainly wouldn't let that
>happen...??...
>
>What if He's had enough too...??...
>
>
>A dog only lets ya kick
>it so long, then he
>bites...
>
>Keep kick'n this 'ole dog....
>
>...Hizzoner P. Wigley Esq. P.C.
>:-lol http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d5da9c5238f33e0.jpg :-lol
>Meet 'Infidelicus Extraordinarus'...aka...Hizzoner

I just wanted to have this quoted for no particular reason

[tailboom]

It's insane, but so are the ways of the world today....

It's just a what if...??...

Just wanted this quoted too...
...Hizzoner P. Wigley Esq. P.C.
:-lol http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d5da9c5238f33e0.jpg :-lol
Meet 'Infidelicus Extraordinarus'...aka...Hizzoner

[BillS511]

It would make a helluva movie.

Bill:-wave

[aman]

We've never been an aggressor nation. Never conquered lands, nor enforced policy at the tip of a war head.

Consider economic and political weapons as well, mate...

[tailboom]

you know exactly what I meant...Matey

[Simon Evans]

Ah, you're right...

The Native Americans never attempted to dominate the World through political, economic or military might... But then they got kicked into touch by the agressive actions of the incomers, who formed a coalition that became a nation, enslaved men, women and children, committed atrocities against innocents and trampled all over the rights of indigenous peoples...naw, can't call that `aggressive` - Genocide might be a better word.

Then they decided to take care of each other in a great North/South divide which decimated the nation and divided brother against brother, father against son. Nothing agressive there, I s'pose?

But you're right about one thing. The good 'ol USA has never been an agressor nation - Late for the first World War, Late for the Second, lost the Vietnam War, failed to prevent the invasion of Kuwait depsite having troops only a few miles away and have so far successfully managed to kill more of their own in friendly fire incidents in Afghanistan than they have the `agressors` - mainly because the aggressors aren't stupid enough to stand up and shout "Over here" which is the only way the good 'ol USA seems able to fight a police action. Yep, they have a dismal record in aggression.

John Wayne must be turning in his grave.



Simon Evans

[tailboom]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-02 AT 04:50PM (EDT)[p]:-lol
And no one suffered at the sharp end of the British Empire's
stick 'eh....?

...Hizzoner P. Wigley Esq. P.C.
:-lol http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d5da9c5238f33e0.jpg :-lol
Meet 'Infidelicus Extraordinarus'...aka...Hizzoner

[rtriez]

>> But then they got kicked into touch by the agressive actions of the incomers,

Yep, you're right...they're called Europeans. Check your globe, that puts you oh....right about in the general area.





Best Regards,

Bob

[Flying_Scott]

Maybe but we would leave NATO and all the countries that are part of NATO would engage in war with the US with the World VS the USA im not sure it would be that easy.....

[mikeymcc]

Ah ... A new principle of international law:

"Any nation which has ever committed an act of aggression is automatically wrong in all future actions and is required to just sit there and take whatever other nations dish out, regardless of whether those other nations have ever previously committed acts of aggression."

==================

Simon,

Be grateful that you today drink port instead of schnapps. You have the USA to thank for this, including volunteer Native American victims of the genocide you so haughtily proclaim. (They knew a Good Thing when they saw it and volunteered to help defend it. Note that as citizens of Amerind nations they were not subject to the draft.)

(Sure, Germany would have been defeated without our help. What our help did was to make it possible for you folks to continue to speak English instead of having to learn Russian.)

I don't know whether war with Iraq makes sense given the way we seem to be going about it. But i DO know that disarming Iraq with respect to WMD is essential.

If necessary the USA and Israel are quite prepared to defend themselves regardless of the opinions of the rest of the world. Our debate is mainly internal -- the number of people here who care what Europe thinks is very small, though the media would have you believe otherwise.

Enjoy your Guiness.



Mike McCarthy

[jaugust]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-02 AT 06:38PM (EDT)[p]Yep, the Pigrims left Plymouth and wound up in...Plymouth(Rock)Now what kind of coincidence is that?(Eddie Izzard)

As for Native Americans, some tribes were not the peace-loving, friends to nature, etc, that they portray themselves as being. They were extremely aggressive toward other tribes, murdering and butchering in the name of conquering territory for whatever selfish reasons they may have had. And even though white Europeans came to this continent in search of a new start (and to escape the oppressive clutches of England's king) all of this is ancient history and something which most Native Americans themselves are not willing to keep dredging up.

I have not seen the movie WINDTALKERS yet, but would like to. It's about the Navaho code talkers used during WW2 against the Japanese military. Many Native Americans served honorably during America's involvment in wars. And most have decided not to live in the past and proudly accept the idea that they are Americans first.

Regards.

[Biff]

>Be grateful that you today drink
>port instead of schnapps.

While I don't necessarily completely agree with mr. Evans' point of view, I can't help but be amused by this typical response. It wouldn't be all that unreasonable if you yourself had participated in the liberation, but I've noticed that many young people also seem to feel the need to respond this to just about any kind of criticism they encounter.

Wouldn't it be equally odd for Europeans to claim Americans should be forever grateful to the Europeans for founding the US in the first place? Or to the French for helping to liberate it from the British?

[jaugust]

And what of England's own internal conflicts? And incursions into Africa and India? How about the Falklands?

As for Kuwait, we did not have enough troops in that area to prevent an invasion. Hard to beat back an invader that has the arms and equipment to trample everthing in its path. Was better to build up troop concentrations than to fight a half-arsed battle.

As for our Civil War, that was an internal conflict. It was not nation against nation. The Northern states opposed slavery and abolished it. The Southern states continued to use slavery and seceded from the Union and formed its own political organization. As such to hold the US together and to abolish slavery, there was no choice but to do it by force. Hence, it became a war of friend against friend and brother against brother. A sad but necessary chapter in our nation's history.

[pacnorwest_simware]

the number of people here who care what Europe thinks is very small

I guess I'm part of the minority. I think Europe has adopted better policies than the USA, we could take a lesson from them.

Kevin

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d3c97505fe07a44.jpg

[tjkotula]

>I think Europe has
>adopted better policies than the
>USA, we could take a
>lesson from them.

Reality check please......

So you are saying that we should be like Europe and attempt to get UN inspectors back into Iraq first? (which is what they want) Please!!! Saddam is going to laugh and shut the door as he as done previously. War with Iraq is the only way this is going to be settled. Maybe not now, maybe not 10 years from now, but some day, that is what it's going to boil down to. As long as Saddam and his followers continue to rule Iraq they will continue to develop weapons of mass destruction to use against the U.S. and its allies. If we don't act now, things will get very ugly, very fast once Saddam develops nukes.

Tim Kotula

XP 1800+
MSI KT3 Ultra Motherboard
512 MB Crucial PC2100 DDR
Diamond Stealth III S540 32 MB VRAM

How do you know when it's time to upgrade your computer? As soon as you get the latest copy of flightsim, it's time!

[ChiTownFrankie]

With regards to Iraq I think it's European logic once again rearing its' ugly head:

Iraq may have WMD, maybe even a nuke BUT under "International Law" (Whatever the hell that is, thank god the Bush Admin sees the new ICC for what it truly is), we cannot attack Iraq until they become the "aggressor", at that time proving to the most skeptical of Euro-liberals that yes, Saddam does have a nuke...

When Iraq does go on the offensive what's the target? London? I think not. Paris? Nope. Frankfurt? Nope. When Saddam loads a nuke into a shipping container minus a return address, with delivery handled by bin Laden's boys, it's going to be AMERICANS that die. It's easy for Europe oppose an attack on Iraq. The people of Europe aren't the ones in the bull's-eye. We are.

It high time that the great "unilateralist" actually behaves like one. It's high time that in the eyes of the US government everything else takes a backseat to ensuring that thousands of Americans aren't slaughtered this fall. Hopefully that time has arrived, though I'm afraid it hasn't. There are too many people left in government who give a flying F what Chirac thinks of Sharon, or Schroder's feelings on an Iraqi nuclear nightmare.

Europe, bugger off, you don't have a dog in this fight.
It's the US that's been awarded the prestigious title of Great Satin, we've got a moniker to do justice.

Eddie

[jaugust]

Winston Churchill once said, "an appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." Funny how Europeans still have not learned the lessons of history, as well as a "small" minority of Americans. Britain's Neville Chamberlain found out the hard way upon returning from Germany: "We have achieved peace in our time." Churchill: "Sir, you have made the choice between war and dishonor. You have chosen dishonor, and you will get war!" The rest is history.

[pacnorwest_simware]

Why do we have to go to war with Iraq? All that is sure to accomplish is losing thousands of soldier's lives, maybe in vain. The majority of the world (and yes- the majority of the USA, even some of you you right-wingers) does not support an all out war in Iraq. Something else could be done, we could set up a puppet regime or something. I don't have many ideas, but I'm sure other top gov. people do. Iraq is an enemy, but that doesn't mean we have to start a war. Another Bush = another war. It's all for the opinion polls, people. Like any in the Bush admin. really care...

Kevin

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d3c97505fe07a44.jpg

[Luke]

>Winston Churchill once said, "an appeaser
>is one who feeds the
>crocodile, hoping it will eat
>him last." Funny how Europeans
>still have not learned the
>lessons of history

Interesting....

Once upon a time, there was a British Prime Minister who sought to wage war against an Arab country because they were illegally stealing foreign assets and shutting down a critical hub of commerce...... once upon a time this British Prime Minister had been Churchill's Foreign Secretary. He claimed that letting the Arabs get away with it was just appeasement all over again, and he knew first hand the results.

... and when they attacked, the Americans hung the Brits and the French out to dry.

Seems like you might want to learn the history of your own country's foreign relations.

Cheers!

Luke

[jaugust]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 02:36AM (EDT)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 02:31 AM (EDT)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 02:30 AM (EDT)


Once upon a time the British waged war against a colony because those colonists dared to defy their King and threw tea into the harbor. Those colonists too were stealing assests and shutting down a critical hub of commerce. That colony along with help from the French went on to win its independence. Egypt too went on to win its independence.

As for my previous post I stand by my comments.

As for the British and French being hung out to dry by American foreign policy, admittedly, I have to plead ignorance. But I fail to see what that has to do with anything that has been discussed here. Europe's policies are still there and still are not better!

[mikeymcc]

Biff,

I'm glad that you find my response "typical" because it also happens to be true. Perhaps patriotism is dead in Europe because there is little worth defending. Perhaps it is alive here because there ARE things here worth defending. (Let's hope so -- otherwise the Radical Muslims will be proven correct, that the decadent West is a pushover ripe for conquering over a period of a couple of hundred years.)

I agree with you that Americans should be grateful to Europe. We have England to thank for the basic concepts underlying our philosophy of government and economics, and the French were indeed a BIG help in the War of Independence. (Though their real aim was to tie up British troops so they couldn't be deployed on the continent. In reality it is the French who should be grateful to US, for showing them that it is indeed possible to overthrow a monarchy.)

All this having been said, it is also true that this nation was founded in part specifically to break with Europe on a number of issues. We went our own way for many years -- and the nation, and the world, are better off both politically and economically for our having done so.

Sure there was lots of invested European capital here, for which those of us who understand economics are indeed grateful. But in the end that's because the OPPORTUNITIES were here, not because Europe was being generous with us. (There was a Marshall Plan for reconstructing Europe, and a MacArthur Plan for Japan, but I recall no "King George III Plan" for reconstucting the North after the Revolutionary War, nor do I recall a "Disraeli Plan" for reconstructing the South after the Civil War. (This even though Britain backed the Slave States.)

=======================

No, I didn't participate in the liberation of Europe. (Born in 1944.) But as a marketeer for a computer company I did, in a small way, participate in the reconstruction. (We donated A LOT of equipment to universities, and we never sought publicity for this.)

Prior to spending time in Europe I had been quite down on the USA. But after my first extended business trip to Europe I came back with a completely changed attitude -- I suddenly understood what the founders of the USA had in mind, and how wildly successful they had been.

The turning point came at a lunch with a couple of Dutch salespeople in Scheveningen -- when I realized that people from the north and south of HOLLAND (for crying out loud) dislike one another.

Here we make jokes about regional differences, but on the Euopean continent people still KILL EACH OTHER over them, just as they used to in Britain.

That doesn't happen here. Sure, we had the Civil War, but when it was over it was truly OVER -- and if I close my eyes to the half-million deaths I can say with certainty that we became a better nation for it.

(Who do you think led the way in the elimination of institutional racism in the USA? It wasn't the North, it was the people of the SOUTH who, shamed by the Birmingham bombings, and the KKK, and by Rosa Parks and Marin Luther King, said "Right, time to end not just slavery but also discrimination." And they did it, too. Spend time in Atlanta or Houston and you'll see what I mean.)

There isn't another nation on earth that is capable of transforming itself the way the USA has done, not just once but SEVERAL times. I can't take credit for the USA, but what the founders achieved here was the equivalent of a United Europe, based on a fresh start, with basically one language, basically one culture, basically one set of laws, and an economy free of border checks and tarrifs. It has been SO successful that people born here can't imagine that things are different elsewhere. (People in LA think the same way as people in NYC even though the cities are 2400 miles apart. Draw a 2400-mile line east from London and compare what happens. Heck, the differences begin on the other side of The Channel, and it gets worse from there.)

So no, it wasn't ME, or anyone else alive in the USA today who did it -- but i WILL defend the USA with words against all detractors. The USA in fact IS something special, and while Europeans may no longer think so, the people of Asia, and of Central and South America, quite literally are DYING TO COME HERE.

=========================

Sure, the USA has engaged in aggression. But when you see what happened in Southeast Asia after we pulled out, maybe the Vietnam War would have been a Good Thing had we actually fought to win.

=========================

Mike McCarthy

[jaugust]

Mike,

Brilliantly stated. We do have our problems here, such as street gangs and such. But I also read somewhere that Britain with its strict gun laws are all of a sudden having problems with gun-related crime. Europe is moving toward a more socialistic state, which perhaps would explain why a country like Germany is unwilling to assist us in coralling terrorists and shipping them to the US for trial.

Funny how the old Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore with its socialism, but socialism would appear to be moving westward into Europe and perhaps into the United Kingdom. Is it possible that it could turn up here in great force? I think we're seeing signs of it already in how certain political groups are trying to get government involved in our everday lives, whether or not we want them to.

[mikeymcc]

PacNorwest_Simware,

Relax -- everything is going to be fine. War may not be the only way, but if we show up in sufficient strength there will be no war in practice -- the Iraqis will cave in almost immediately.
The same is true of all the other bad regimes out in that region. If we want to get rid of the regimes, all we have to do is to show up in force because, except for the regious fanatics, and except for Central Iraq, these despotic regimes enjoy no popular support. Their soldiers will not resist because the cause of their government is not THEIR cause, and they know that we have no intention of "conquering" them in the traditional sense. (Look at Japan. We DEFEATED them, after which we helped to RESTORE them, but we made no attempt to CONQUER them.)

That is why I favor starting at the borders of Israel and pushing out from there. If done right we can remake the Middle East the way we need it to be, with surprisingly little effort. (Bush is quite right -- we have a unique opportunity to impose Turkey-like representative government on what is effectively a bunch of feudal monarchies/theocracies.)

As Lenin said, "You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs."
(He also said something else which translates perfectly from Russian to English: "The world is divided into the 'Who' and the 'Whom'."

Mike McCarthy

[Simon Evans]

>Europe, bugger off, you don't have a dog in this fight.
>It's the US that's been awarded the prestigious title of Great >Satin, we've got a moniker to do justice.

Yep, it's the evilest textile manufacturer on the face of the globe...

Let's face it people, thanks to the freedoms the average American citizen expounds, most of them can't even FIND Iraq on the map. In a survey a couple of years ago researchers asked thousands of adult americans to point out their country on a mercator map without country tags and the MAJORITY pointed to Russia "because it's the biggest.." They also failed to notice america had been removed.

Dubya didn't even have a passport when he became President and foreign policy is made not be sound judgement or reason, but by CNN, NBC and political necessity. Patriotism is founded on two mutually exclusive tenets - love of the country, and love of the country despite the best evidence to the contrary. The former is for heroes, the latter is for fools, bigots and zealots. The line between the two is at the best blurry, at worst written only by the victors.

Terrorism was a world problem long before two 767's flew into an American building, but it wasn't the USA's problem, so they didn't care. Now, they struggle to understand the nature of terrorism and think they can solve the problems by invading, bombing and installing puppet governments.
Just like the Nazis...

I'm sorry, but you people `over there` just have no concept of world events. It's all black and white, John Wayne good, Saddam bad. The real world isn't like that. You can't wrap up a happy ending in a couple of hours and `solve` the problem of terrorism. It's like trying to hold the grains of sand on a beach - the harder you squeeze the more escapes your grasp.

Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of history are destined to forever repeat them. Invading Iraq would be a violation of International law and would certainly place the USA in the position of being the Great Satan (sic) in the hearts and minds of all those who would see it destroyed. And many of those have nuclear weapons already. All you're doing is making yourselves targets. All of you, your families, wives, children.

Now you know how it feels...

Good luck. You're gonna need it as your government leads you into a road which leads only to death and destruction, and you blindly follow because the road may end, but the car's shiny.

Try thinking for yourselves.


Simon Evans

[jollyjohnny]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 05:11AM (EDT)[p]Simon,

"your government leads you into a road which leads only to death and destruction"

Do you think Bush realy cares ? I doubt it, the continuing arrogance shown by our friends across the water astounds me.

Will they ever learn ?

The worlds Policeman Bush is the real madman and Eco terrorist. If the U.S. wants war, go it alone but be prepared for many body bags and hardships.

I can't see the puppet Blair moving in, simply because it will cost him his leadership and any chance of self styled European President. The SAS who U.S. S.F. are much reliant on, are very reluctant due to U.S. actions in the Bin Laden hunt, remember ?

Then there is the cost in $. 80% of Kuwait was paid for by the coilition country's, can the U.S. afford it ?

Hollywood may be good at distorting History, this is real and it's now.

I'm not even going to attempt to go into the "friendly fire" debate.This speaks volumes on it's own.

[Flashpoint]

Blah Blah Blah and more Blah. Simon, I think you are the one living in this fake world you speak about so often. We don't live under this black veil, wandering around like dorks all day. We are not as stupid as these "surveys" show. If you would actually talk to someone around here and stop assuming we're so dense, maybe you'd realize that we know more than you think. I can sit here and name off 185 countries and their capitals, but I don't have THAT much time. I can also locate them on a map too. I don't know where you get the notion that our youth is getting dumber either. The class I graduated HS with had 850 people in it. Of those 850, 450 finished with a GPA of 4.0 or better (due to AP classes) and 300 more finished with a 3.8 or better. The rest of the class finished with no less than a 3.5GPA. Stupid ??? Hardly.

No concept of world events ??? Gee, sounds like you're calling us stupid half-wits who couldn't tell their ##### from a hole in the ground. News Flash - You couldn't be more wrong. I know more about what's going on overseas than in my own country and I'm sure alot of other people do too. Whenever you want to step out from behind your magic screen and get with the REAL world, go ahead and do so, because we'll be right here where we've always been. Don't try to reverse it either. I get BBC news live from London, I know what kind of crap those so called "journalists" like yourself are spewing. I'm not deaf Simon, nor am I blind. I sit here every day and listen to the same ol crap that makes the United States out to be the big bad giant. Their not fooling me, but they're doing a good job on you apparently, and the rest of Europe.

Also, you apparently fail to realize the might of our armed forces and the technology that drives them. Do you have ANY clue about our Military, their numbers and their weapons ??? Do you honestly think we can't defend ourselves ???

When it comes to terrorism, the only way to stop it is to fight back. If you eliminate the major players in the game, the other team will lose. Saddam is next on the list and a invasion WILL happen. If the people across the pond want to say something, let them, but we are doing this not for ourselves, but for everyone. If you don't want us to do anything, then be that way, but you'll only be hurting yourselves. Either you get on the convoy, or get off and stay off.

One last thing before I get off my box. Simon, you obviously have too much pride. You spend so much time putting people and countries under your microscope, you never have enough time to look at YOU. If you would step back and realize for one minute that you aren't king of the world, or these forums, maybe you'd be a better person.

So, If you want to respond go ahead. But remember that I am definately NOT backing down on this one. Your online thesaurus and your vocabulary won't help you on this one. Try posting ONE time without using any big words or making some snide retort. I am not sure what you are trying to prove when you do, but let me be the first to say, it doesn't impress me. In the real world, I speak just like you when you post. Why don't I do it here ?? I simply don't have to.

Now, I am getting off my box. If I have to get back on my box ...... well, hope I don't.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[Flashpoint]

>The SAS
>who U.S. S.F. are much
>reliant on, are very reluctant
>due to U.S. actions in
>the Bin Laden hunt, remember
>?

Really ??? Not the way my friends tell it. They are 3rd year 82nd Airborne. Guess what they are doing this year ?? Yeah, that's right, training SAS instructors and soldiers. Don't forget, we also train your pilots too. Where do you think they came during WW2 ??? That right again, to the Spartan School of Aviation in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[jollyjohnny]

It's a shame you dont mention the groups funded and armed both now and in the past by the U.S. Very selective.

One law for the U.S. and sod the rest of them.

[rtriez]

>> Very selective

Uhhh...Yep...And just who's interests should we be looking out for ? Our enemy's ? Don't think so...

>> One law for the U.S. and sod the rest of them

Might takes right...sorry, just the way it is...been that way since...well, forever...





http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d73549b379a61f0.jpg

Best Regards,

Bob

[Biff]

>Biff,
>
>I'm glad that you find my
>response "typical" because it also
>happens to be true.
>Perhaps patriotism is dead in
>Europe because there is little
>worth defending.

I would disagree. There are great democracies in Europe, and there is also great wealth. And arguably that wealth is distributed more equally among its inhabitants.

> Perhaps it
>is alive here because there
>ARE things here worth defending.
>
>I agree with you that Americans
>should be grateful to Europe.
> We have England to
>thank for the basic concepts
>underlying our philosophy of government
>and economics, and the French
>were indeed a BIG help
>in the War of Independence.
>

You are thankful, yet you criticise Europe for all sorts of things. And that's ok. Why can't citizens of the US accept any criticism without the kinds of responses we're seeing here? Heck, look at this very thread. 'What if..' indeed.

Europe is still grateful and it is also the strongest ally of the US. Europe is not just a blind follower, however.

>
>Sure there was lots of invested
>European capital here, for which
>those of us who understand
>economics are indeed grateful.
>But in the end that's
>because the OPPORTUNITIES were here,
>not because Europe was being
>generous with us. (There
>was a Marshall Plan for
>reconstructing Europe, and a MacArthur
>Plan for Japan

It could and has been argued that the main reason for these plans was to revitalise these markets for the ultimate benefit of American export. True generosity is a rare thing.

>Prior to spending time in Europe
>I had been quite down
>on the USA. But
>after my first extended business
>trip to Europe I came
>back with a completely changed
>attitude -- I suddenly understood
>what the founders of the
>USA had in mind, and
>how wildly successful they had
>been.
>
>The turning point came at a
>lunch with a couple of
>Dutch salespeople in Scheveningen --
>when I realized that people
>from the north and south
>of HOLLAND (for crying out
>loud) dislike one another.
>
>Here we make jokes about regional
>differences, but on the Euopean
>continent people still KILL EACH
>OTHER over them, just as
>they used to in Britain.
>

You must have misunderstood joking for sincere dislike. All the people in the north and south of the Netherlands do is joke about regional differences, just like you. Of course, there are a few exceptions - and don't tell me some inhabitants of US inner states don't downright hate Californian liberals and vice versa - but on the whole the Dutch people are a proud united nation, and there is remarkably little violence there. As in by far most parts of Europe.

> It has been SO
>successful that people born here
>can't imagine that things are
>different elsewhere. (People in
>LA think the same way
>as people in NYC even
>though the cities are 2400
>miles apart. Draw a
>2400-mile line east from London
>and compare what happens.

Europe has more inhabitants and is much more densely populated, so geographical distance isn't necessarily the best way to compare these two areas. Go north from London to the tip of Norway, east to Berlin, or to the south of France, and you will see that people aren't all that different at all. Even though they may speak different languages or eat different types of food. Europe will continue to unite.

>Heck, the differences begin on
>the other side of The
>Channel, and it gets worse
>from there.)
>
>So no, it wasn't ME, or
>anyone else alive in the
>USA today who did it
>-- but i WILL defend
>the USA with words against
>all detractors. The USA
>in fact IS something special,
>and while Europeans may no
>longer think so, the people
>of Asia, and of Central
>and South America, quite literally
>are DYING TO COME HERE.

Which is hardly a unique trait. The people of Asia and Africa are quite literally DYING to go to Europe.

>
>
>=========================
>
>Sure, the USA has engaged in
>aggression. But when you
>see what happened in Southeast
>Asia after we pulled out,
>maybe the Vietnam War would
>have been a Good Thing
>had we actually fought to
>win.
>
>=========================
>
>Mike McCarthy

[Ferry]

I never heard so much nonsense before. Where did you get the idea that Europe is moving toward a socialistic state?

The US made it clear that they did not want to participate in the recently founded International Court of Law for War crimes, and even stated that they would be willing to invade the Netherlands in case a US citican would be held as a prisoner. How's that for democraty?

Ferry

[rcbarend]

" and the U.S. was no longer Mr. Nice Guy...???..."

You've got to be kidding me ....

First and foremost, let me state that I (and many Europeans) have nothing against the state USA and it's people; even stronger, I consider myself "a friend".
And yes, most of us were as shocked about what happened on 9/11 as you were.

BUT, being a 'friend', I ask you not see everything so black&white and try to learn something from history.

Like most states in this world, the actions of the USA are mainly driven by their own political and economical interest; And maybe, as a Christian, I don't like that, but I am realist enough to accept that this is how the global community works.

But to position the USA the as "Mr. Nice Guy" policeman of the world and the only defender of free democracy, is pushing reality a bit too far.
As an appropriate example: the position of Sadam Hoessein, who now appears to be Mr. BadGuy in person.

1. Ever wondered why Sadam could grow to be the powerfull dictator as he is today ?? Because in the 19eighties the western world (and more specific: the USA) needed a local counterweight against their THAN main MiddleEast enemy IRAN.
2. Why did the USA lead the world in the Gulfwar ?
Out of friendship with Kuwait, goodness ?? LMAO.
NO, all of a sudden Sadam became too dominant in the region, threatening the economic lifeline of the western world: OIL.
3. And at the end of the Gulfwar, why was the Sadam regime not dismanteld ? Because the Arabs states didn't allow it or because there wasn't enough military power to do so ??? BULL.
It would destabilise the MiddleEast again, making way for another extremist that could threaten the sensitive balance-of-power in the region.
Better a "Controlled" enemy than an unknown one.

And now, this divide-and-conquer policy has proven to be a gigantic mistake. So suddenly it must be corrected at all costs ?
Without considering the consequences ? Please, think twice.

Again, this MiddelEast issue (the main cause for this terrorist problem in the world) isn't just escalated this way because of the USA, NOR aren't you the only ones suffering from it. Half the 'civelized' world, including Russia, Europe and "democracies' like Saudi Arabia are just as reponsible.

But I do hope you realise and are willing to admit that todays terrorist mess PARTLY is your own (and OUR) fault, caused by political stupidity and self-centered shortsightness.

So, maybe you should re-think your Mr. NiceGuy statement; some self-knowledge and reflection on your motives and responsibilities would suit some of you fine !!.

Rob

[ChiTownFrankie]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 11:23AM (EDT)[p]"Let's face it people, thanks to the freedoms the average American citizen expounds, most of them can't even FIND Iraq on the map. In a survey a couple of years ago researchers asked thousands of adult americans to point out their country on a mercator map without country tags and the MAJORITY pointed to Russia "because it's the biggest.." They also failed to notice america had been removed."

That's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard coming from the "enlightened" side of the Atlantic.

"Dubya didn't even have a passport when he became President"

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. The classic Euro-elitist put down, only x and x percent of Americans have passports. Hmm. possible reasons for this statistic? For one America and Europe are roughly the same size. One can travel within his own country and have the same varied experiences as one who visits Madrid then Helsinki. I wonder what the percentage is of Europeans who have left Europe?

"Patriotism is founded on two mutually exclusive tenets - love of the country, and love of the country despite the best evidence to the contrary. The former is for heroes, the latter is for fools, bigots and zealots. The line between the two is at the best blurry, at worst written only by the victors."

Herein lies the rift between America and Europe post-9/11. The idea that patriotism is a bad word astounds me. When put into the context of countries surrendering their sovereignty to the EU I guess it makes sense. We in America, ignorantly as you would contend, still believe that our country's still a ##### good place to be. We have hope for the future that not even 15 Saudis and 4 miscellaneous Arabs could take away.

"I'm sorry, but you people `over there` just have no concept of world events."

Simon I'd debate you on foreign policy anytime. My concept puts America first above all else, yours is cowardly and self-depreciating.

"violation of International law"

What is that Simon? Who writes it, who enforces it?
The UN? In that case Saddam is in violation of the Gulf War ceasefire. What resolution would prevent the resumption of hostilities? The UN has been reduced to a puppet, a big sharp stick that liberal Europe can jab into the side of the US for being too "American".

In this country Simon we kind of value our sovereignty as a nation. While your country seems hell bent on surrendering as much of it as possible. Ignorant Americans, yeesh.

"All you're doing is making yourselves targets"

We're already targets Simon. Perhaps if Westminster Abbey would have been knocked down, you people could understand that we ARE at war, they shot first and we have to do whatever it takes to prevent them from shooting again because each bullet has the potential of ending thousands, if not tens of thousands of lives. American lives. Your stance on Iraq is an EASY one Simon. The EU's stance is an easy one. You are not the targets, we are.

I think that in the coming weeks when President Bush makes his "public" case for action in Iraq this discussion will be null and void. But I know better. Spineless Europe doesn't war in Iraq for any reason, thanks to lucrative economic opportunities in Iraq created in the last ten years. I can recall a bit of Euro-liberal-slander, the American capitalist cowboy riding into a country to make money, all else be damned.

Take a good hard look in the mirror.

Try thinking for YOURselves. Think about all the dead people at the WTC. Think about all the gassed Kurds in the north of Iraq. Think about the nuclear reactor that the Israelis bombed in 1981. Think about the ease with which a nuclear weapon could be shipped into an American port.

Think about the first WTC bombing, the cast of characters:
The Blind Sheikh, a creature of bin Laden, bought and paid for fanatic talent.
Ramzai Yousef the logistics chief. Also plotted to blow up a dozen US airliners over the Pacific. Carried an Iraqi diplomatic passport and was later proven to be a member of Iraqi intelligence. When his helicopter was leaving Manhattan to take him to prison he told one of the FBI agents, "if we would've had more money those buildings wouldn't standing".
The explosives master, name escapes me, escaped to Pakistan the day of the 1993 bombing. When discovered in Pakistan attempted to flee to Iraq, failed.
Then think about Mohammed Attah in Prague meeting with Iraqi intelligence during the summer of 2001.

Saddam is menace. He's going to be taken down and only the U.S. has to the backbone to do it.

What happens when Saddam goes?
Here's a scenario for Euro-liberals to chew on:

Iraq becomes the first Arab democracy.
The Iranian people, already ready for change, will have the impetus necessary, so long Ayatollah and Hizbollah

Saudi Arabia will be at the mercy of the US, for once not the other way around. A victory for human rights will be won in that
country while justice will be served as the State most responsible for 9/11 will be dismantled. The Wahhabis will be crushed at the hands of men who see their oil wealth imperiled by American might waiting in the desert. Al-Qaida and Hamas, cash-strapped die.

The Syrian occupation of Lebanon and material support for terror will have to come to an end.

Egypt, overcome by civil unrest will have to allow its citizens to have a voice, another corrupt dictatorship falls.

No wonder opposition in the region is so strong.......

Eddie

[ChiTownFrankie]

"I never heard so much nonsense before. Where did you get the idea that Europe is moving toward a socialistic state?"

Oh I dunno, the EU, economies controlled by labor unions=unemployment > 15%, etc. and so forth.

"How's that for democraty?"

It is democracy. It's the will of the American people being expressed, that our soliders should not be subject to prosecution by a tool of anti-war European liberals.

Eddie

[pacnorwest_simware]

Terrorism was a world problem long before two 767's flew into an American building, but it wasn't the USA's problem, so they didn't care. Now, they struggle to understand the nature of terrorism and think they can solve the problems by invading, bombing and installing puppet governments.
Just like the Nazis...

I couldn't have said it better...

Kevin

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d3c97505fe07a44.jpg

[gsand]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 12:46PM (EDT)[p]Simon,
I hope that you take this in the spirit intended...

>>Europe, bugger off, you don't have a dog in this fight.
>>It's the US that's been awarded the prestigious title of Great >Satin, we've got a moniker to do justice.
>
>Yep, it's the evilest textile manufacturer
>on the face of the
>globe...
>
>Let's face it people, thanks to
>the freedoms the average American
>citizen expounds, most of them
>can't even FIND Iraq on
>the map. In a survey
>a couple of years ago
>researchers asked thousands of adult
>americans to point out their
>country on a mercator map
>without country tags and the
>MAJORITY pointed to Russia "because
>it's the biggest.." They
>also failed to notice america
>had been removed.

And what freedoms might those be? The freedom to go as far (or not) as one wants in the pursuit of education? The right to live one's life as one chooses? The right to work hard and to be as successful as one wants? Freedom of speech? Freedom of religon? Yes, we DO hold these freedoms dear! These are the very basis of our country. But what on earth does this have to do with locating a country on a map? What really matters is that one understands the geo-political forces at work within regions and how those forces may one day affect MY country. Yes, that's right, MY country. I am not an isolationist but anyone who says they would be willing to sacrifice their country for the world's greater good isn't being honest. Basic self-survival instincts are alive and well and do extend to countries as well.

I doubt that the majority of Europeans can locate Kansas City, Kansas or even the state of Kansas on a map, but what does that prove? I, for one, can also locate most of the world's countries on a map and can also name most of the capitals. Above average? No, just a product of a standard US education.
>
>Dubya didn't even have a passport
>when he became President and
>foreign policy is made not
>be sound judgement or reason,
>but by CNN, NBC and
>political necessity.

Ha, that's a good one. Show me a country in the world that doesn't make foreign policy based on political necessity. The political realities within countries make basing foreign policy on domestic political realities not only prudent but required.

>Patriotism is founded
>on two mutually exclusive tenets
>- love of the country,
>and love of the country
>despite the best evidence to
>the contrary. The former is
>for heroes, the latter is
>for fools, bigots and zealots.
>The line between the two
>is at the best blurry,
>at worst written only by
>the victors.

I agree with you on this one. However, it is possible to be a patriot and still be self-aware enough to recognize that one's country is not perfect. Being a child of the fifties I lived through one of our most turbulent times- the 60's and 70's. I was not proud during the Watergate period but we survived.

>Terrorism was a world problem long
>before two 767's flew into
>an American building, but it
>wasn't the USA's problem, so
>they didn't care. Now, they
>struggle to understand the nature
>of terrorism and think they
>can solve the problems by
>invading, bombing and installing puppet
>governments.
>Just like the Nazis...

Low blow, Simon. We don't install puppet governments and we are most certainly not like the Nazis. The Afghan people are free to choose their own government. The world is watching over this, or had you forgotten that your own United Kingdom, and other countries, has troops in Afghanistan and that the ground forces commander in Afghanistan since spring is Turkish?

>I'm sorry, but you people `over
>there` just have no concept
>of world events. It's all
>black and white, John Wayne
>good, Saddam bad. The real
>world isn't like that. You
>can't wrap up a happy
>ending in a couple of
>hours and `solve` the problem
>of terrorism. It's like trying
>to hold the grains of
>sand on a beach -
>the harder you squeeze the
>more escapes your grasp.

No concept, eh? Let's see if I understand this or not. I DO understand that there are people in the world who wish evil upon the US. I DO understand that the conditions that cause this are many and varied, some our fault, some not. These conditions include governmental (US foreign policy, the nations own foreign policy or lack thereof, quality of internal government, etc.), economic (conditions within the many countries involved-no\poor jobs, poor economic policy), financial (poor\no central economic policy, public funds mismanagement, corruption, etc.), intellectual (poor\no educational opportunities), sociological (a combination of economic, intellectual, and psychological factors) and religious\cultural\regional differences. I DO understand that because of our wealth and success we are envied\reviled\demonized by a sizeable faction of the world. I DO realize that simply removing someone because WE (US) don't like them is not acceptable without some justification. I DO realize that the UN hasn't done ANY of the mandated weapons inspections for at least six years. I DO want to know what is going on within Iraq and, more importantly, what has gone on for the last six years. I DO realize that it may (repeat MAY) take action by the US to eliminate this potential threat before Saddam is able to export something to us that will make 9-11 look like a side show. I DO understand that this action, if it occurs, may trigger further terrorist attacks.

I also know that this action, if it occurs, will trigger anti-US sentiment around the world. Am I happy about that? No, but it comes with the territory.

Simon, how about a suggestion from you on how to proceed? You're awfully good at slamming us, but I haven't seen any concrete suggestions from you on what to do. So, how about it? What would you do? Ignore him and hope that he goes away?

>Those who fail to learn from
>the mistakes of history are
>destined to forever repeat them.
>Invading Iraq would be a
>violation of International law and
>would certainly place the USA
>in the position of being
>the Great Satan (sic) in
>the hearts and minds of
>all those who would see
>it destroyed. And many of
>those have nuclear weapons already.
>All you're doing is making
>yourselves targets. All of you,
>your families, wives, children.
>
>Now you know how it feels...
>
>
>Good luck. You're gonna need it
>as your government leads you
>into a road which leads
>only to death and destruction,
>and you blindly follow because
>the road may end, but
>the car's shiny.
>
>Try thinking for yourselves.

I do think for myself. That's why I can tell you honestly that I haven't made up my mind yet on how I feel about any possible action against Iraq.

But I can guarantee you one thing- if my government decides to go ahead I will be in support of it fully. Why? Because we the people elected our government and we have to trust in them. Maybe that is a foreign concept for you because you seem to trust no one but that is the essence of our union. We elect our leaders and then entrust them to do the right thing. Sometimes it goes astray, but for the most part it has worked for 226 years.

Lastly, I have to say that the general sentiment towards the US has deteriorated over the last six months. We have been there for the world, especially Europe, for the last 100 years. How many times during the 20th century did we save Europe from itself? And at what cost? If we are the Great Satan, so be it. Maybe we should just retreat within our borders, behind our missile shield, and say to hell with the rest of the world? Is that what you want? Fine. By the way, when can we expect re-payment of the following:

World War I Total Debt-$48,000,000,000
World War I Debt from United Kingdom-$21,385,000,000
World War II Total Debt- $288,000,000,000
World War II Debt from United Kingdom- Officially Unknown, may reach as high as $200,000,000,000
Marshall Plan Total Cost-$13,330,000,000
Estimated Total US Foreign Aid to Europe since 1950-$500,000,000,000

This is not to mention the 2,500,000 dead and wounded from WW II. Good American men and women who sacrificed their all for you.

Don't for a minute think that we don't understand death and destruction. Don't for a minute think that we don't understand the issues. Don't for a minute think that we won't do what is in OUR best interests.

Regards,
Gerald Sandridge
Florida, USA

[mikeymcc]

Kevin,

Ignoring all the other attacks on US facilities, and ignoring the WTC truck bombing of ten years ago, what do you suggest? Should we rely on diplomacy and send stern letters after a series of "useful" talks? Should we simply ignore what has happened, wring our hands and say "We got what we deserve"?

Seriously, what do you suggest?

Mike McCarthy

[jaugust]

Well, let's see; high taxes, to the tune of 40% of the GDP; the "Savings Tax Directive" which keeps money in high tax countries from being moved to low tax countries; the belief by Euro-politicians that the US should prop up Europes economy; the unwillingness of Euro-politicians to allow citizens from such highly taxed countries as France and Sweden to keep more of what they've earned; Europeans angry because we the US refused to bow to the Kyoto Protocol; exremely restrictive gun laws; national health care; big welfare state. And how about the many al Qaeda operatives who planned Sept. 11 and organized themselves right under the noses of European policemen?

"The US made it clear that they did not want to participate in the recently founded International Court of Law for War crimes, and even stated that they would be willing to invade the Netherlands in case a US citican would be held as a prisoner. How's that for democraty?"

America's past record overseas suggests that it does prosecute and punish its own felons, is largely fair to foreign nationals and aliens, and so is quite different from the United Nations that allows frightening states like Cuba, China, Syria, and Iran often to have a voice in its policy. And as a general rule, American soldiers are far better behaved overseas than are U.N. troops and other personnel. Literaly thousands of war criminals are roaming the European continent and yet have never been put on trial. Where are the European indictments to bring to justice the perpetrators of the 1956 Hungarian slaughter, or the executions in Czechoslovakia after 1968? Cannot we find a few dozen who ordered all those killings at the Berlin Wall? Ghastly things were done in Cyprus in 1974 that have never been fully investigated. Surely, Europeans should not allow some ex-Soviets to enter their airspace when such operatives helped to butcher thousands during the last five decades.

And you want us to join the International Court? And expect us to bow to UN members such as China and Syria and expect a fair trial should an American soldier be tried for a war crime? The very thought is chilling.

[jsalvador]

I would post, but I would just repeat exactly what Simon said.


Good job, couldn't have said it any better, but you will get plenty more ignorant replies from ChiTown and Flashpoint about how America is the only country that has the balls to hit Iraq...HAH.

The last time America had "balls" was when we attacked Vietnam, we never belonged there, and look what happened.

Most soldiers that went in never came out or came back injured. Oh, but we didn't have to worry about the balls of going in, just that we had to go in and nothing else.

I can go on all day, but unfortunately, most people won't get it.

[jaugust]

Actually, I think we should apologize to the rest of the world for having such a high standard of living, for having a country that has freedom, for having a country that many foreigners would like to come to because of the opportunity that exists here; for our prosperity. I suppose we should also abandon our constitution and become more like Europe, or perhaps the old Soviet Union. How about if we...

[jaugust]

Duh! Generally speaking when soldiers go to war some don't come back.

"Most soldiers that went in never came out or came back injured"

One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,169 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served. Although the percent who died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.

Most? I think I know where the truly ignorant replies are coming from.

[jaugust]

So, Kevin, et al, enlighten all of us ignoramuses. What is the nature of terrorism? If you're going to speak well, then support your arguments.

I feel the need to go bomb somebody today...I don't care who...just somebody...anybody...after all we do bomb everbody since we're such filthy nazi pigs...

[FlyerJeff]

Personally, I would like waking up to this on the news:

'Osama gets missile up his butt and is killed'

-
http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c8968c035214917.jpg
Keep on Flyin'!
AMD Thunderbird 1.4 ghz
NVidia Xtasy GeForce 3 Ti 200 64 MB
Sound Blaster PCI 128
512 MB RAM
And
Good frame rates!

If FS2002 doesnt crash your PC, nothing will!

[Ferry]

No, you should apologize to the rest of the world that you don't have the capability's to have a critical look at yourselves. There is nothing wrong with you constitution

[Ferry]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 03:16PM (EDT)[p]forgive me if i am wrong, but unemployment in the US is just as bad as in Europe. And if you are unemployed you will have a better standard of living than in the US.. is this bad?

And what about your remark of the international court of law against warcrimes,are you impiying that as long the mayoraty of the american people are aginst it, it must be the right thing to do (BTW, i can't remember you guys voted for that)

[Ferry]

If you join the UN, you should obay its decisions. If not ... why bother to join them.

[jaugust]

We do look at ourselves critically. In fact we can be downright self-deprecating. That is why when there is a crisis somewhere in the world, be it floods, earthquakes, etc, we are usually the first country to respond, and respond we do. Americans have far more compassion for people from other countries than we are given credit for.

Canadian commentator Gordon Sinclair stated this well after 9-11.
May I suggest you click on the link below and read this please?
http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/xsinclair.html

[Ferry]

So where is the critical part...?
I didn't read about Vietnam, Iran-Contra, I didn't read about the shaw of Persia, I didn't read about how you supported Irak during the war with Iran.

It is so useless talking to you.. you hear, but don't listen

[rustam]

I'm from Russian, but live in england.

This is only my view...

The 11/09. No good, but US invades Afghanistan in order to find Laden. They bomb the land and so on... and then they set-up a new goverment... with their troops remained there...

I saw on the news report on the BBC that an american Officer is asked if it is likely to find Laden. He said that that's not what he is here for. He is here because taliban treat woman and children badly. I tell you why they are there: to get closer to Oil. Bush is very friendly with oil companies... hey... they pay huge sums to support him. I saw it on BBC news24 today...

Why do they want to bomb iraq?... Iraq is developing itself. And suddenly US want's to invade it... And it doesn't think of any other option. It doesn't even consider sending the inspectors back in. And why? Oil, oil, oil...

Just my point of view...

Rustam

[jaugust]

Because the UN is filled with socialists. Frankly I would like to kick the UN out of my country for the anti-American decisions it does make. The UN has had a socialist as its chair since its inception. It frequently has been sympathetic in its decisions toward other socialist countries. These people are here by the good graces of the USA and have taken advantage of it by frequently setting policies which are detrimental to our existance.

Socialism is everywhere. Even in the UK. Tony Blair's government is the Labour Party. In Germany, it's the Social Democrats and their allies, the Greens. Here in the states it is in the Labor Unions, the Democratic Party, the Liberation Theology of the Roman Catholic Church, and of course, the Communist and Socialist Parties! . World-wide, socialism is spreading in the "greens," the environmentalists, and the most of liberal extremism.

Sorry to get into such a political discussion. But I am a "Yankee capitalist dog", not a socialist.

[JohnHamilton]

Yup you do love to "stir'n that old pot".

But your topic was the USA not the British Empire.

Go back a few hundred years and read the histories of
the Phillippines, Hawaii, Mexico, Canada, Haiti, Cuba
etc etc.

You may be surprised at what you read.

Regards, John Hamilton - Los Angeles.

[ChiTownFrankie]

Wrong unemployment in the US is hovering around 5% a this time. In Germany it is 15%.

"And if you are unemployed you will have a better standard of living than in the US"

European socialism unveiled.

"And what about your remark of the international court of law against warcrimes,are you impiying that as long the mayoraty of the american people are aginst it, it must be the right thing to do (BTW, i can't remember you guys voted for that)"

No I'm not. I was responding to the notion that America not supporting the ICC was undemocratic. When the people of a country have an stance on an issue and government acts tot further, that IS democracy. In socialist Europe where the left has full control over government policies, this couldn't possibly happen.

Eddie

[ChiTownFrankie]

I'm sorry I just don't see the ignorance.

"Attacked Vietnam"

You can't possibly be older than 16, having such a simple view of Vietnam. The problem with Vietnam was that NOTHING was black and white. There is quite a bit of B&W in Iraq, a manical dictator hell bent on bringing this country to its knees at the expense of his own people.

I stand by what I said, who has the "intestinal fortitude" to stop him? We do. We have to because the consequences of inaction are too horrible to contemplate. WE will suffer those consequences, not the Germans or French.

Eddie

[Ferry]

I feel I can' t convince you.. but Europe is getting more and more right wing.. so much in fact that it worries me...so much infact that you could compare it to pre WWII, this is not good in my opinion. if you think that having a resonable standard of living of you are unemployed is socialisme, then i am proud to be a socialist. Being social has never been a bad ting where i come from

[ChiTownFrankie]

Oil my as_s. Not even Black Gold would provide the political will to take such an unpopular stance.

This is what it's all about, making sure NOTHING like this ever happens again.

http://politicsandprotest.com/
Please be paitient, it's a 7mb file.

The title says it all, politics and protest are irrelevant in the light of what we have dealt with over the past year.

Never, ever forget. I never will.

"The people who knocked these buildings down will hear us all soon".

Plenty of messages are still awaiting delivery.

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile -- hoping it will eat him last."
- Winston Churchill


Eddie

[Ferry]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 05:13PM (EDT)[p]Couldn't it just be that you american's are worong? or are you so stuck up with your country that any other opinion than the american would be seen as a socialist opinion. Yeah right... your allowed to have any opinion as long it is not in contradiction to the Redneck American opinion.


Where is Bill Clinton when you need him??

[ChiTownFrankie]

Bill Clinton sold his daughter to the Saudis for a 14yr old prostitute.

Tongue in cheek.

[Ferry]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 06:08PM (EDT)[p]And maybe George Bush would do the same as his coke supplies run dry

..so where is your tongue now?

[JohnHamilton]

To be fair Kevin, what Simon wrote here is not really
technically correct.

The USA has suffered acts of terrorism prior to 9/11;
namely in Germany, Scotland, Lebanon, Saudi-Arabia,
Kenya, Tanzania and other places throughout the globe.

The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon brought the
reality of terrorism "home" to most Americans and thus
this reaction of urgency that we see now.

Prior to 9/11 terrorism was more of an item for political
debate and rhetoric rather than action. Now we have gone
full circle in the other direction.

Regards, John Hamilton - Los Angeles.

[Flashpoint]

Basically this one broke the camel's back.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[jollyjohnny]

I think Rustam has a valid point. If not why will Bush not sign the Kyoto agreement, why not attend the world summit taken place in S.A. Why is the U.S. the biggest offender of world pollution ?

To other points,

Saddams todays bad guy, bad to his people, weapons of mass destruction ect so on so forth but why not invade Iran as well if this is the case ? Or Zimbabwe for that matter, Mugabe is deliberately leading his country into starvation, surely this cant be right ? Though I forgot Zimbabwe dosnt have oil.

Remember also, it's not too long ago the U.S. was supplying the Afghan terrorists.

In as far as the comment we see somewhere here of "go get them before they get us". What about the millions raised for the IRA ? Somebody said if they had destroyed some Abbey in London or something you'd think different.

I've seen destruction caused by terrorist, they bombed my city, (cost nearly a billion pounds to repair and 5 years) one Saturday morning six years ago. They bombed Canary Wharf, they killed two little boys, innocently shopping in Warrington I could go on, theres over 30 years of killing and bombing events to go at, thing is, it was American dollars, openly raised in America that funded a high proportion of these activities and there is a very high probability they still do raise money.

America invited the two leaders of this terrorist organisation to come to the U.S. where it welcomed them with open arms.

Double standards is what comes to mind.

John

[Simon Evans]

OK, you win.

All you have to do is find 'em, get 'em to stand still long enough, make sure they aren't alongside their wives, brothers and sisters and then drop bombs on them. Excellent.

Now just tell us how you plan on doing that..? Invade Iraq? But Saddam's money is elsewhere, and inevitably so would Saddam be, by the time the bombers arived overhead. If it were not so the Americans would already have found him and killed or deposed him. He's hardly the lowest profile person on the planet.

See you in 30 years. When you'll still be looking for someone -anyone - to drop your bombs on.

Just like Northern Ireland. Where, as I recall, many Americans support the terrorists financially and politically. My, how contrary...

Such simplistic views on terrorism from the other side of the pond just reconfirm that you Yanks don't have the merest clue about the true nature of terrorism. You are going to lose a lot of civilians and soldiers learning a lesson much of the rest of the world could teach you.
You don't hunt terrorists with soldiers.
And terrorists don't stand and fight with soldiers.

And now the terrorists are already winning, because they have caused people and resources to be diverted from other tasks, they have placed fear and caution - call it `terror` - in the hearts of Americans everywhere, and they have embarassed the security services of supposedly the most powerful nation on earth. And so far you lot have achieved precisely jack against them. You don't even know their names, let alone their whereabouts or their plans.

It's all back-foot reaction, and the only action proposed involves waving a big stick. We'll see how successful that strategy is...



Somebody asked what I'd do..? Nothing. Scary thought, politically unacceptable of course, but why not?

Who cares about Saddam? He's an old man, he'll be dead and in hell in a few short years. Do nothing and he dies. And if history has taught us anything it's that progeny are never able to live up to the dreams and aspirations of the tyrant father. Do nothing and the dynasty fails.

Me, I'd put financial support into education and relocation programs just over the border, and ensure that a safe and secure channel out of Iraq exists for the population.

As for terrorism in general. Ignore them. That's the biggest gain from terrorism removed at a single stroke: Denial of a platform to put forward their views. If they can't utilise normal channels, just ignore them. No press, no soapbox. No terror.

Simon Evans

[Flashpoint]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 06:30PM (EDT)[p]Stupid children these days. Salvador, Maybe your view of 'Nam is so misguided because you aren't that old. You should go and talk to someone who doesn't have a arm or a leg and ask them.

Sometimes, I think it would almost be better if you walked into oncoming traffic. That way, we wouldn't have to put up with your ignorance anymore. How about I give you a gun, gear and clothes and send you out to war. You'd be crying like a little girl wanting mommy to come save you. And you know what would happen ?? Your Captain would leave your sorry butt behind and let the enemy kill you, because you'd be no good to him. Then you'd be tourtured. They'd cut your fingers off on both hands, then when you had to fingers, they'd take your hands off. If you still didn't tell them what they want, they'd take you outside and shoot you at point blank with a AK47. See, I don't think you have the balls, or ovaries in this case, to actually goto war. So, you just sit there, acting like the little girl you really are, looking nice with your pigtails and pink dress, playing keyboard Hitler.

Just remember, you'll get no respect from this person anymore. You've bashed my country, friends and me one too many times. So, you can either get your gloves up and fight, or leave em down and get knocked out.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[jollyjohnny]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 06:51PM (EDT)[p]Strange as it may sound....I agree 100% with the last paragraph and applaud in telling something I thought but didnt like to say hear, that something ?

"And now the terrorists are already winning, because they have caused people and resources to be diverted from other tasks, they have placed fear and caution - call it `terror` - in the hearts of Americans everywhere, and they have embarassed the security services of supposedly the most powerful nation on earth. And so far you lot have achieved precisely jack against them. You don't even know their names, let alone their whereabouts or their plans."

I dont agree with a lot you say Simon, but on this piece well done, thoughtfully written.
jj

[jaugust]

"Iraq is developing itself" add to that weapons of mass destruction.

[jaugust]

You are obviously looking for the worst in us gven your comments. Can you tell me what you know of Vietnam, or Iran-Contra, or Iraq? How much do you honestly know? And have you heard both sides of those stories or are you like a lot of people who, on hearing one side, assume that that side is the only one?

If you want to know more about these things I suggest you do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

I do listen, but you're not telling me anything that I haven't heard before

[jaugust]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-02 AT 07:32PM (EDT)[p]Ferry,

Do know what a Redneck is?

You are apparently the one who is incapable of intelligent discussion. You and others in this thread have taken the position that those of your ilk always do when backed into a corner with facts: you abandon intellect and become all emotional.

As our president said last year, you're either with us or you're with the terrorists, plain and simple. And judging from the actions of the UN I suspect that it is not the former.

[pacnorwest_simware]

To be fair Kevin, what Simon wrote here is not really
technically correct.
The USA has suffered acts of terrorism prior to 9/11;
namely in Germany, Scotland, Lebanon, Saudi-Arabia,
Kenya, Tanzania and other places throughout the globe.

The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon brought the
reality of terrorism "home" to most Americans and thus
this reaction of urgency that we see now.

Prior to 9/11 terrorism was more of an item for political
debate and rhetoric rather than action. Now we have gone
full circle in the other direction.

Really what I was trying to say when I quoted Simon, was that before the US had suffered terrorist attacks, but when 9/11 came along we realized "hey, we can be targets of extremists just like the rest of the world" so security got stepped up a notch, etc. If you've been to Europe, you may have noticed how much more extreme the airline security (or other security) is. That is because Europe has been targeted by terrorists a bit more that the USA, but mostly from terrorists within Europe. The US kind of woke up after 9/11. Really my whole reason for entering this argument was to denounce a war with Iraq.


Kevin

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d3c97505fe07a44.jpg

[jaugust]

Actually, we have been targets of extremists; the bombing of the WTC in '93, but admittedly that was just a firecracker compared to 9-11. And Timothy McVeigh could be considered an extremist and a terrorist even though he was an American. In that vain we have had our own internal terrorism which dates back to the 60's and early 70's. Such groups as the Black Panthers, Weather Underground and the SDS amongst others. But not much happened after that other than for a few odd skyjackings. So, yes terrorism from another corner is fairly new to us. But we are reacting appropriately, rather than burying our heads in the sand. Ignoring terrorists will not make them go away. Prior to 9-11 we did ignore terrorists. And lo and behold they murdered 3000 people, and not just Americans.

[jaugust]

Gee, Tailboom, ya sure opened up a can of worms on this one. It's been fun...

[jaugust]

In reply to my own previous post, I was in serious error as to when Mr. Sinclair broadcast this essay. Gordon Sinclair died in 1984. The transcript the link refers to was from a radio commentary made by Mr. Sinclair in 1973 when he got fed up with all the America bashing that was going on at the time by other countries.

I regret the error, but the spirit of his broadcast in 1973 still lives on to grateful Americans.

[Sonar5]

Simon says .....Oh leave them alone, and they will leave you alone.

You are one of the silliest people to make a statement in this thread.

Are you really living in your dream UN world.


My Country, The United States of America, tried leaving these peons alone. HHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,

SSSSSSSIIIIIIMMMMMMMOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.....

IT DIDN"T WORK.................... They still kept coming.


You know what, Colonel Hackworth, retired, said in 1991 we had Smart bombs, now we have genious bombs.

I hope we defend ourselves against IRAQ, and any other country that tries to stop us.

Most in this thread spewing their Anti United States hatred can go hide in the sand. I could care less.

If one more attack happens I hope we go Nuclear on the whole Middle East if it is shown Arabs had anything to do with it.

As far as the IRA quotes....Yeah divert the topic, you cowards.... You could have and should have attacked the IRA when you had a chance. Your a soverign nation and had the right to defend itself. BoooHooooooo............... You should have found every dollar coming from the United States and stopped it from reaching the iRA, so get off that horse, hypocrites.....

We have been attacked DOZENS of times by terrorists, and Simon Says leave them alone. Well, Simon, I pray your house is not next on their target list, for as soon as it is and you lose loved ones, you may change your tune.

You people are a Joke.... My country is at war, and if you don't like it, take your oil and all your exports to my country and shove em where the sun don't shine.


You say it is about Oil. Bull.... We could stop importing in a heartbeat if forced to, bu you know what, the Arabs would only be able to sell sand, and then you will see upheaval in the middle east.


You people talk about Kyoto, and the United States not being Democratic.

Screw you, I never voted on Kyoto in my election, and therefore my country should not approve it unless it gets my vote.

As for Simon and his polls..... BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


What a joke.....You believe polls/...... Please grow up and realize that the spew that CNN, NBC, ABC, ANd MSNBC spew to Europe does not represent the views of the anyone I know in my immediate circle of friends, colleagues, relatives and others.


As for Sadaam, maybe he like Lybia will be taught a lesson when you try to terrorize my country.

Oh, please protect us from Hitler, oh please protect us from Japan, oh please protect us from everyone else..........


Maybe we should leave Europe to fen for itself. France says oh we can's give you evidence on Maussoui, you might kill him....


Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, he tried to kill THOUSANDS...Helloooooo, hypocrites, come spew about the United States.....


You people are PATHETIC, absolutely PATHETIC, Jealous, selfish, whiny, ungrateful, liberal, socialist, globalist, hypocrites.

Let one of those terrorist come to my house I'll blow his butt right up to meet my maker. And if this goes global, I'll gladly go and serve my country, die for it if necessary, and many people I know feel the same.

Those of you in Europe have lost your sense of what Freedom really means, as long as someone you know doesn't die at the hands of a terrorist. Hypocrites.

We are not going to cow tow to the UN, or anyone else to protect our country. We can go it alone, and will if we have to, and we'll see who is the victor in the End.

And for the record, I'll clean anyone's clock here on current events, history and foreign policy, and I'll debate anyone.

ANd yes, I too can pick ANY COUNTRY out on any map, and the bull about people not knowing where iraq is is BS, and you know it.

Why don't you come see where I live, I'll show you what The United States is all about. You people just don't get it.

Just because your countries don't have as much feeling about patriotism as we do, we're wrong.........


What a bunch of whiny, pathetic, hypocrites you are.


Go get a life, because I have one, and you need one.

No Regards,
Go Jump in the Lake for all I care.

Joe.

And I didn't spell check this dribble either... SO THERE!



.
Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 1) 78 Pics in Frames with 1mb in Thumbnails
High speed connection Recommended:
http://home.attbi.com/~flypics1/FrameSet.htm
.
Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 2) 106 Pics in Frames with 1.5mb in Thumbnails
High speed connection recommended:
http://home.attbi.com/~flypics2/FrameSet.htm
.
Picture Gallery of My Flight in a 1945 SNJ-6 on June 1st, 2002
Joliet, Illinois
http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/FrameSet.htm
.
http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg

[ChiTownFrankie]

Amen Joe.

Eddie

[nwabri]

Ummm..Ok...I was going to respond to Simon....BUT

Joe Said it all!!


Love from Minnesota, USA!


Brian A. Neuman
Woodbury, MN

[Flashpoint]

I say we elect Joe as the forums "Blow it out your ##### Europe/Simon/Iraq/Etc" speaker.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[jollyjohnny]

You sad misguided person. You'll be sorry in a few years, left out on your own, missing out on those all important dollars. If there is one thing that motivates America it's more dollars.

Lets face it Bush wont go on his own, he'll beat his chest and thats about it, and if you dont join us we'll sanction you, well big deal, theres been sanctions and embargo's for years even and currently against the U.K.

I guess your legalised wholesale murder, you have misguided as law is O.K. as well ?

The U.N. is there to protect even Iraq for all it's misgivings. If I recall the U.S. was instrumental in the formation of the U.N. now you say "stuff it" ? Stamp your feet, throw your toys out the pram, even take your ball home. Fact is it is against international law what your proposing and would put your Mr. Bush up there with the likes of other "leaders" we now see on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Your democracy which you hold so dear would be set back donkeys years and in some repects would teeter on the brink of dictatorship. All while you sleep in your nice safe cosy bed.

You cant have one law for the U.S. one law for others, please explain this to me, I dont quiet understand how this can be right ?

The offer of inspectors going back in was refused by the U.S. Now you beat your war drum, who is the real terrorist here ?

"As far as the IRA quotes....Yeah divert the topic, you cowards" It seems this has hit a raw nerve, though I suppose a typical and expected response.

So it seems were left with no alternative, people of America, mid term elections are a cummin, come out your trailors, round up a posse, theres a lynchin to be done..Yee ha or is it alright these days your fond of saying.

Oh and by the way "Cowards" why is it air travel has disintegrated in your country, why are so many of you afraid to travel, surely boy, you aint scared of a few rock throwing ragheads ? After all you took thier money and trained them, but hell Mr. Policeman they paid in full, good ole green bucks so that was O.K. Ding dang doody.

Grow up Rednecks.

[jollyjohnny]

I'm glad you say you as a Country ignored terrorist's, this is what made you feel safe and happy and is why I agree with Simon regarding one of his points. When he says to ignore them, I dont think this in in a literal sense. Take away the news and media coverage and you take away it's voice.

Terror dosnt stop once the debris has been cleared. Terror comes after the boom. It stops your normal routine, it puts you on edge and for some takes over their lives. OK, life goes on it has to, but it's never the same again.

A friend of mine changed jobs after our bombing, to work in a brick built not glass building, sounds silly realy but to this day is very cautious about entering glass buildings, this is over 6 years on, this is the real effect of terror. I'd like to know how many of the drumbeaters here have been directly involved as a victim in terrorism.

[Flashpoint]

I've got an idea ......

How about, you take what you just said, print it, wad it up, and shove it right back up your ##### where it belongs.

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[Flashpoint]

Why don't you got back to the rock you called out from under. As far as being a victim of terrorism, I am a victim of the European-Elitest kind (your kind). You come around here, babbling your BS about my country, and how Europe is so much better. In a form, this is terrorism, because you are making people afraid, afraid to come back to the forum. They are afraid of being blasted by some Euro loving scum like yourself. Like Sonar5 said, shove it!

J.Garrett
MidContinent Air Services, LLC
KLEX
Lexington, KY, USA

Athlon XP 2200
GF4 Ti4600
1GB PC3200 DDR
100/80GB HD's
30-50fps
3DMark2001SE=12198

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d556c4b69eda61c.gif

"'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats ....."

[rustam]

I too have an idea...

How about stopping the bad language, because it's an interesting converstaion, and this thread might be locked by the all-mighty moderators if you don't stop...

Rustam

[Simon Evans]

I fought for my country. I killed people with gun and bayonet. I bear the scars of those who would do the same to me...

And I tell you again, you cannot fight what you canot find. And terrorism is a master of disguise and deception. And war solves NOTHING. Not a single thing. And, just to be politically-motivated like a true politician, wars cost. Before, during and after. They consume resources, they consume morals and they consume generations. To inflict war upon a nation - upon its children, women, mothers, fathers, brothers becasue you don't like the POTENTIAL actions of the man at the top is evil.

And therefore USA, you do run the risk of becoming the Great Satan. You think you're right..? OK. Fair enough. You can't justify it, but you can believe it.

You think war is glorious? Fight one. You think war solves anything..? Start one. See you in hell.


Simon Evans

[rustam]

US wants money. That is my statement. 70% of US's wars are simply for money!!!

And Iraq has rights to develop Weapons of mass destruction. It's a free country. I tell you more:

Many years ago US and USSR signed some agreement to disarm their Nuclear weapons. It has been like that ever since, but not long ago US canceled the agreement. They want to have nuclear weapons... Interesting?

Next, I don't like Bush. Clinton was fine. But as soon as Bush got into the hot seat, he spent milions 267 bln... Huge sums anyway on some "Nuclear Dfence/Attack Project" codenamed starwars. He speaks of Europe as his enemy... in his speech he said that "when we will have the star wars, we will be able to say to our enemies: UK, Iraq, Japan, France, and even Russia, son't you dare ddo something, because we'll blow you up!" Good one... No one deny this, it's from BBC, perhaps English will know what I'm on about.

US is the biggest polluter in the world. They didn't sign the Kyoto, and they don't intend to. Oil industries are booming in US. There is lots of pollution. I saw a picture of the Sly;ane of LA, and it was all foggy, because of the pollution. I saw yesterday on BBC news24 that in Alabama, power plants do not even have appropriate filters! People are sick and die early. Bush by all means has to stop this because he is the president. But he doesn't. Why? Oil and power-generating industries support him. They support him, because he leads them to Oil. Iraq first attack... Close, but unfortunate, Afghanistan... Very Close... Iraq number 2... done! Bush will get the industries to the beloved Oil, and both will get Bilions of dollars...

I've got a feeling that US will use Nukes on Iraq. The people of Iraq will not give themselves up like the Afghans. They will fight like the Vienamese... This will be the impossible war again. Almost all Iraq's Oilfields belong to Russia, and russians will support Iraq with arms. Yeah I know... I will get critisized for this one... but it is true. Russian president said that Russia will use it's "VETO" (whatever it is, does anyone know?) to prevent the attack. Uh-Oh...

I don't support nor the attack on Afghanistan on the US, nor the attack on Iraq. Why should britons die for some US-oil...

US didn't have the guts to get into Afghanistan. They bombed it, and then the first people to go into Afhgnistan were... Brits, surprise surprise!

Afhgnaistan didn't have a single plane (well maybe a single tiger moth) in their airforce. I'm not sure if they had any tanks... but I don't think they had any. US had B-2's... Hey... why Use B-2's if they don't even have a single plane... they could just use Cessna's. Well this is a joke, because they had anti-aircraft issiles, but even F-15's and F-16's and B-52's. A B-52 blows up a huge mountain full of militants who maybe didn't even see a computer... Hey... An electronic watch in their whole lives. Now this is fair...

Oil....Oil...Oil!

Rustam

[rustam]

In which war have you fought in Simon? Just curious...