Same questions - that have not been answered: Grass / dirt runways, landing speed

[KittyMercury]

It was: 3) When I use the grass runways or dirt runways or some other uneven runways, the Cessna bumps and jumps off the ground so much that it doesn't accelerate (when taking off) or decelerate (when landing and applying brakes) properly, and as a result, takes a lot more runway to take off or land on these runways than runways with hard surfaces. How do I solve this problem?

It seems that bumping the message up wasn't going to do any good since it is simply seen as an old message. So here it is again, along with the questions I had originally that still haven't really been answered: What is the best speed at which to land in a 737, 747 or 777 with about a 10% full tank (or other fuel capacities)?

[soundair]

Q1 landing on a short dirt or grass strip i would use full flaps and try to have all flying speed bled off just as arriving over the threshold. hit the breaks as soon as the wheels hit the ground. Ive also flown in a real plane of gravel and grass and there is always bumpiness it is normal.

Q2 the landing speed i use for a 737 is around 140knots the larger aircraft i usally land at or around 150-160 depending on conditions. the Pilots handbooks that are in PDF can give you a pretty good idea of landing speeds.
Happytails
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[nwabri]

Hmmm....the last question is a little different...I always found that doing an approach anywhere between 140-160 kts IAS usually works well, on all fuel levels....just the way I do things when there isnt a chart that exactly shows speed vs. weight on approach. And on the dirt/grass runway question...Basically, on landing come in as slow as possble and just let the back wheels touch the surface and I would retract the flaps on touchdown and hit the brakes. The reduction of lift right off should help to slow the aircraft...takeoff..set the parking brakes, set flaps, full throttle, roll, and lift off asap...hold the aircraft in ground effect until you have reached 60-75 kts...then procede into a normal climb...and basic ground effect, hold the plane 10-20 ft AGL....Hope that helps a bit.


Brian A. Neuman
Wooodbury, MN
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[OStateFlyer]

The first one is all about technique. Use 10 degrees of flaps. Hold full up elevator on the takeoff roll until the nosewheel lifts off of the runway, then use whatever backpressure is necessary to hold it off of the runway. The idea is to get the airplane in the air at the slowest speed possible, it should more or less fly off at a relatively low speed. Then accelerate to Vx in ground effect. Once you are climbing at Vx and have cleared everything, pitch for Vy, once you have Vy and a positive rate, raise the flaps. That's a straight soft-field takeoff.

Landing is all about technique as well. No specific flap setting here, but full is typical and lets you touchdown slower. Set up a stabilized approach. Just as you flare over the runway, add a touch of power to soften the touchdown and hold the nosewheel off during rollout. Get the carb heat off to avoid ingesting stuff into the carb. Hold the nosewheel off as long as possible and keep your speed up just a bit faster during the taxi so that you keep more of the airplane's weight on the wings and off of the mains. Get the flaps up after you are clear of the runway and try not to stop if you are taxing on grass or other rough stuff. That is straight soft field landing. If you want to get it down and stopped, get the flaps up immediately after touchdown along with the carb heat, hold full back on the elevator and get on the brakes. The idea is to get the weight on the mains and off of the wing, so you get the flaps up. Hope that explains things for ya.

Brad


http://www.okstate.edu/osu_orgs/flyingag/wings.gif

[KittyMercury]

Thank you for your replies; so to take off from such runways, I try to get the plane off the runway as soon as possible? So it means I do not try to solve the problem of it accelerating a lot more slowly than when on hard surface runways? And do I just take off with only the elevator full up and not the stick, too?

Is it normal (or "real") that planes accelerate more slowly on such soft runways?

I did try to take off at the slowest speed possible from airport with code 15S, but however hard I try to get off the runway as soon as possible, I still couldn't take off properly... I must have tried it about 15 times... i.e. I crash into the trees of the hills that surround this 400-feet runway soon after takeoff. The speed is simply too slow; I can't climb. If I try to climb to clear the trees, the plane stalls. Ugh!

[patco]

400 feet?! Wow, if that's not a typo that strip sounds more like a copter pad!

What are you flying on that strip?I think you'll need a STOL a/c. Something like a Husky, Beaver, or a Porter maybe...a bush plane, in other words.

Take care,
Pam


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[KittyMercury]

Well I don't know, it is 400 feet and I have no idea why people would build an airport with a grass runway that short - I tried to take off from that runway in a Cessna Skyhawk. Yes, I know that I can take off from that runway in a helicopter... :-lol but I can't with any other planes - is there another default plane that can take off in a smaller distance?


Lester State (15S)
Washington, United States

Latitude: N47* 12.91'
Longitude: W121* 27.74'
Elevation: +1693

Runway Length Surface
5 400 Grass
23 400 Grass

[nwabri]

Hmmmm....I am not sure much of any fixed wing aircraft has the ability to take off on a 400 ft runway...with the exception of a Harrier...hmmmm....I am going to go check it out now....very weird.


Brian A. Neuman
Wooodbury, MN
http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c991b5d19e2a4b1.jpg

[patco]

Try to find a de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver, a Piper Super Cub, or an Aviat Husky in the A/C files here...there are all STOL bush planes that should work. Tomorrow, I'll try that field myself and get back to you...it looks veeeeeery interesting!

Take care,
Pam


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[nwabri]

Nah....400 feet is way too short...I am thinking an error of some sort? Maybe not? I just think that a 400 foot runway cant really support anything except maybe ultralight aircraft.
Brian A. Neuman
Wooodbury, MN
http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c991b5d19e2a4b1.jpg

[KittyMercury]

If it is an error on Microsoft's part, let it be; it is still fun to play with such a short runway! :-)

The runway in the screenshot I posted earlier had a length of around 600 ft.

[patco]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-02 AT 03:18AM (EDT)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-02 AT 03:10 AM (EDT)

OK..I did it! Here's how:

Get yourself a de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver from the library files (the one I use is by Fred Banting and Yannick Lavigne). You'll need 2 files, the 2000 model, and the 2002 update:

beaver7.zip
bvr7_upg.zip

Now, when you're at the strip, go into overhead view (Ctrl+S, then the + key to zoom in). Notice that you've already given up almost half of the strip in the default start position. Also, you want to be at the other end of the strip (50* heading). Move the plane all the way to the end of the strip by slewing (Y key, then #2 key on the numberpad (backward), #8(forward)...and #1 or 2 key to turn around).

Now, set flaps just past the take-off position. Hold the brakes while you open the throttle all the way (make sure it's wide open). About 3-5 secs after releasing the brakes, start pulling back smoothly but firmly (you'll have to experiment with the timing of this step).

Off you go, into the wild blue yonder!

Here's a pic of the flaps position I used:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/pastrychef2/FS2002/lesterst.jpg

If any of this isn't clear, just let me know. But yes, it is possible (I'll be glad to post pics for "unbelievers" ;-))!


Take care,
Pam


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[nwabri]

Hmmm...Ok, I will believe you, however, 1 question...how much gas was on board?? Any, some? Alot?

Brian A. Neuman
Wooodbury, MN
http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3c991b5d19e2a4b1.jpg

[patco]

LOL....I took it right outta the hangar, just like Fred left it ;-):

From the designers notes:
"The aircraft is pre-configured with 1/2 it's maximum full-fuel payload, 175 lb pilot, and 100 lb energency equipment. These are adjustable by editing the [WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE] section of the aircraft.cfg file with a text editor such as Notepad.
See Load Diagram.jpg for more information."

It really is a great, fun plane to fly...and with floats, it'll open up a whole new world to you. The Aviat Husky is also great fun, along with the Pilatus Porter. Some of these are also equipped with skis (try sliding down a snowy mountain for take-off!)

Have fun!
Pam


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[AlaskaAV]

As others have said, it can be done but you have to have a real bush aircraft. I used the "Blue Cub" and it is not too bad at all. As others have said, start the takeoff roll near the trees, get the plane off the ground asap but keep that nose down as long as you can to build up speed and than only pull it up just enough to clear the trees. Speed at times is much more important than altitude.
Landing is a little harder of course. It takes a hours of practice in slow flight and slips. On final you will be just over stall speed and when you clear the trees, try a short slip and straighten out just before touchdown for a 3 point landing and don't forget to add just a little power just before touchdown to make the landing a little softer.
Alaska has lots of these "modern" runways all over the state and are usually called sandbars.

Have a good flight.

[patco]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-02 AT 03:42AM (EDT)[p]Sorry about the double post, I tried to edit one too many times I guess! :-)

OK..I did it! Here's how:

Get yourself a de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver from the library files (the one I use is by Fred Banting and Yannick Lavigne). You'll need 2 files, the 2000 model, and the 2002 update:

beaver7.zip
bvr7_upg.zip

Now, when you're at the strip, go into overhead view (Ctrl+S, then the + key to zoom in). Notice that you've already given up almost half of the strip in the default start position. Also, you want to be at the other end of the strip (50* heading). Move the plane all the way to the end of the strip by slewing (Y key, then #2 key on the numberpad (backward), #8(forward)...and #1 or 2 key to turn around).

Alternatively, when you're at the "Choose Airport" screen, go down to "Runway/Starting Position", choose "5" (the default is "Active", which is 23). You'll still need to move back to the beginning of the runway...

Now, set flaps just past the take-off position. Hold the brakes while you open the throttle all the way (make sure it's wide open). About 3-5 secs after releasing the brakes, start pulling back smoothly but firmly (you'll have to experiment with the timing of this step).

Off you go, into the wild blue yonder!

Here's a pic of the flaps position I used:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/pastrychef2/FS2002/lesterst.jpg

If any of this isn't clear, just let me know. But yes, it is possible (I'll be glad to post pics for "unbelievers" )!


Take care,
Pam


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[AlaskaAV]

Pam

I sure agree with your comment about the Porters. The airline I worked for in Alaska had several of them for our bush runs. It is unbeleavable what those planes can do in real life. They would outperform the Beavers like you wouldn't believe and that is a great aircraft too.
We had one pilot that took a Porter out to pickup some stranded hunters in an open area with no place to land. There was a 50 knot wind with gusts so he just headed right into the wind, slowed it down to a zero ground speed without landing and had the group walk over to the aircraft to get on board.

Enjoy your flights.

Ernie

[rayN5432H]

I think MS has done well with its runway lengths. BTW, this may not be a 400 ft. strip, but there is a 500 ft. grass strip in eastern PA, called Draco STOL. The sectionals say it's 500 ft., so MS at least got that place right. I've messed around there with the FSD J-3 in FS2000, though I forget if I was able to land it or not. I think I was able to take off, by yanking it off at about 30-35 KIAS.

In addition, the timing of flap retraction after landing may be subject to debate (like anything, of course). You really only need to retract the flaps immediately after touchdown if you need maximum braking. If the runway is long enough and you haven't floated too far down the runway, then you shouldn't need to retract the flaps until things have slowed down and you clear the runway. At least on earlier 172s/150s, leaving the flaps down is of more benefit, as their maximum flap extension is 40* , and those big "barn doors" make a lot of drag.

That's assuming you don't want to use up your brakes. If you need the brakes, then get those flaps up and hold full up elevator to get as much weight as possible on the main gear.

Ray

[flyinggriffin]

The drag from the grass will increase your takeoff distance. If you want an example from real life try this. Put an automobile in neutral and push it on level pavement. Then drive it onto some fairly short grass. Try pushing it then. Snow, sand or any other contaminant will slow your takeoff acceleration by a lot. The purpose of the soft field technique is to get the nosewheel off the ground to reduce drag and prevent it from digging in. Then get the plane flying and out of drag of the turf.

Landing on turf or loose dirt, gravel,etc, just the opposite occurse. You will skid if you brake as hard as you would on dry pavement.

The smaller the wheels, the worse the airplane is effected. Some grass fields are as smooth as pavement. Others will loosen fillings.

[Grunt]

The porter works for sure...I did it a few months ago at Lester State in FS2002 with a full oad of fuel. Couldn't land, however....


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