Lack of support

[toosmall]

My advice to all Brits at least who contemplate purchasing from this flight shop : DON'T

I ordered and paid for a CH Pro Pedal pack on Tuesday and despite FEDUP (sorry fedex) being the designated delivery company they finally delivered the item 28 hours later than paid for: Goods £62 P & P £43 almost 2/3 the cost of the goods.

When the goods were finally delivered to me in the UK I rang the supplier eDimensional on a UK 0871 number only to find that I was actually talking to the flight shop in the USA who then told me to go direct to CH to get technical support.

I did via MSN only to find that bunch of wasters are using such an old version they cannot converse with ANYONE and when I emailed them direct and was passed to what was laughingly termed a supervisor I was told he would now only provide tech support IF I rang the USA from the UK despite the massive costs involved and then claimed CH have UK offices but cannot produce anything to show they exist which I can assure you they do not ONLY suppliers/agents.

This is ALL PROVABLE but for my sins I have now GIVEN flight shop over £100 for a faulty product NOBODY will accept responsibility for. In the UK we have many ways to get these matters dealt with it would appear in the USA they just don't care.

Dare to leave this message in place to serve as a warning OR more likely remove it ASAP I know what my guess will be so those that do see it understand how you are all being shafted and don't wait unitl a product FAILS as mine has done.

[JSkorna]

So is your issue with CH or with Flight Shop?

[toosmall]

Here in t he UK the responsibility for products under warranty lies with the supplier Pilot Shop in this case, which when I telephone a UK number for eDimensional I spoke directly to their/your offices who then claimed it was nothing to do with them hence the post as a warning, fair and correct under the laws of freedom of speech.

[toosmall]

debby@mail.chproducts.com

She works for CH Products and she has also indicated that the supplier is responsible ie Pilot Shop who have already stated it is nothing to do with them even though they supplied untested and as proven FAULTY equipment.

Merry Xmas Pilot Shop you have my money ALL $200 all I have for xmas is a faulty and useless Pro Pedal.

You do have the right to reply - would you dare (or care) to? I am sure Jim wouldn't do such a thing but then he doesn't charge for shipping faulty equipment half way round the World.

[xxmikexx]

Is there no manufacturer warranty on the product you purchased? And, by the way, have you looked into Skype as a cost-effective possible way of placing trans-oceanic phone calls? I'm not attacking you, I'm simply asking.

[toosmall]

Hi Mike

Yes there is WITH THE PILOT SHOP who supplied the faulty goods only problem is when I rang a UK number for eDimension I was actually speaking to the Pilot Shop office and was informed during that conversation to take the matter elsewhere as according to the person I spoke to it was nothing to do with them.

That is why I am so damned angry - have you heard the expression "Bum's Rush" ? - it means being passed around like an idiot from place to place ALL denying responsibility, great way to start my holidays although as a retired/disabled person on a low income who had to save for months to make the purchase I now have $300 of worthless crap because it doesn't work, CH expect me to telephone the USA from the UK to get tech support, FEDUP (fedex) took 28 hours over and above the delivery time/date paid for at around $80 and I have to stick to saving for several months to purchase the Saitek option in the UK because Pilot Shop, CH and all concerned DO NOT CARE. And that is my holiday gift from the USA.

[JSkorna]

I am not sure where eDimensional comes into play.

Just seeking understanding here: If you buy a car at your local car dealer and the car doesn't work, the manufactor of the car has no responsibility, just the dealer who sold you the car? Again, just trying to learn about different laws and systems.

This page may help: http://www.chproducts.com/oem/contact_us.html

Or this:http://www.chproducts.com/retail/tech_contact.asp

[xxmikexx]

Hi Ron,

You must be the Ron McNeil who is a fellow member of WCATC and the Aviator Society, yes?

Anyway, maybe it's simply a communication problem. For example, if CH thinks that you're asking for a refund, that would in fact be between you and eDimensional. But if at the same time eDimensional thinks that you're complaining about a prodcut that is truly defective, or that you need some technical support, then they would indeed send you back to CH.

It's been my experience that these companies are both reliable vendors, that's why I'm guessing that the wires have been crossed. Most likely everything is cool, they're probably just confused. Is there any chance of a simple failure of communication?

[jwenting]

Mike, under UK law the supplier is responsible for ALL dealings with warranty claims, manufacturer warranty or not.
As a result CH will relay the buyer to the reseller, and it seems your shopkeeper is stating that since it's manufacturer warranty he's out of the loop.

So now we have a customer who's unhappy with a disfunctional product that the shop refuses to replace or have fixed because under US law they're not responsible and a manufacturer/importer who refuse to honour warranty claims that don't come through the shop (as they're supposed to in the UK).

Bad PR for you I'd say, as CH is doing what they're supposed to do under law.
You're selling faulty products and are refusing to support them, not a good first impression.

[xxmikexx]

Jeroen, you wrote "Bad PR for you I'd say, as CH is doing what they're supposed to do under law. You're selling faulty products and are refusing to support them, not a good first impression."

"You" is the wrong word. I would like the readership to know that I'm not affiliated in any way with either the FS Pilot Shop aspect of eDimensional, or with eDimensional itself.

Furthermore, I have only a non-business relationship with FlightSim.com, as a member like you, as a writer of occasional articles, as the moderator of the fsOC forum which webmaster Nels Anderson so generously agreed to host, and as the quasi-official maintainer of the FlightSim "Glossary of Aviation Terms", if that's the title.

So while I value your explanation of U.K. law, if there is in fact a real problem here it has nothing to do with me.

I hope to be selling my pending AirBoss(TM) product through the FS Pilot Shop but I can assure you that I would never even consider it unless I was confident that the eDimensional operation is of the highest integrity. If the current situation is more than a simple failure to communicate, or if it is more than a mistake of some kind, you can bet your bottom euro :) that I will want to know this. I find it difficult to presume that this kind of thing is eDimensional policy.

I have no doubt that Ron has had an awful experience. I posted simply in the hopes that a) I might be able to help get his problem solved, and b) to try to help protect the reputation of a vendor with whom I have done many hundreds of US dollars worth of business with never a problem of any kind.

Folks, those of you who've been following threads in the other forums, I hope you'll agree that my stepping in to protect my own good name should not be counted as a negative post.

[toosmall]

Mike let me start by first off stating I am not holding these forums to account for my problems mearly using a public access platform to point out gross failings in a system within which this forum resides.

1. eDimensional is Pilot Shop no doubt and my sales reciept shows them as supplier - eDimensional Inc, 411 7th St Suite 6, West Palm, FL, 33401, USA is there address which on the web is also confirmed BUT they also publish a UK 0871 telephone number (this is known as a premium rate number and can cost upwards of $2 per minute) and when I rang the number I actually was speaking, if the recipient was not telling fibs, to the Pilot Shop offices and when I explained the problem, the Pro Pedals failed to install, and also that I had emailed them the day before due to Fedex's total failure, they admit it in an email to me, to deliver as per contract I was told by Pilot Shop to go to CH to resolve the problem with the pedals as "it is nothing to do with us" and they would deal with Fedex. Now I would assume they would obtain a full refund of shipping costs WHICH they would then refund to me, after all I paid the shipping costs as part of the full cost of the unit, and I could have then used that money to cover the return shipping costs to Ch if necessary BUT that has not even been mentioned. To explain the Fedex problem: I placed the order with Pilot Shop in my evening (their daytime) of the 18th December 2007 and was passed via an email a tracking number which showed the progress of the package, and the package was dispatched on the same day at 6:21 PM (all times are zulu/gmt) and left Riviera Beach at 8:44 PM and arrived at Memphis Int (Fedex Hub) at 12:10 AM on the 19th. It left Memphis at 10:43 AM same day and arrived at London Stansted 12:55 AM on the 20th. The package was due for delivery before NOON on the 20th and as it was only 60 miles from me at Stansted and they had 12 hours almost to make that delivery I sat in all morning awaiting the delivery that never came. On the 21 st I called Fedex in the UK and asked where my package was as according to tracking it was on a vehicle that morning at 7:46 AM destined for delivery on the 21st. They admitted to blunders and would happily discuss compensation with me except they decided not to once the package was finally delivered at 4:50 PM by private courier some 28 hours late. A good case for Pilot Shop to say OK we will refund your shipping costs but, guess what, not even mentioned by Pilot Shop.

2. I went to the Ch website in California and the ONLY way to obtain tech support was to use MSN or its newer derivatives (it is actually now years out of date having been replaced with Windows Live Messenger) and placed the two mentioned names, Steven Lister and Michael Sexton and was contacted by Michael who started to offer support and I was following his instructions until he suddenly stopped writing. An hour later I found out he was on a "chow break" and couldn't be bothered to explain that. I should say at this point he KNEW I was in the UK because I explained that to him and even had to remind him by pointing out my email address was a .co.uk rather indicating as such, but he suddenly decided, either through a lack of competence or shear bloody-mindedness, that he would offer no more support via the internet ONLY by my telephoning him from the UK to the USA at approx $5 per minute as I do not normally call abroad so had no "calling plan". I then got through to his manager "Debbie" who offered two solutions: Send the unit to them at my expense and no refund of costs if the unit is not faulty or telephone them, some choice, pay or PAY.

That is the current position, I have faulty goods I can neither get replaced by the seller as per UK law unless I pay a lot of money I can ill afford or write-off approx $250-$300 of hard saved for money and wait until I can afford an alternative maybe in another 6 months to a year and in the mean-time spend a miserable xmas not being able to use the contents of a very large box sat in my living room, thanks pilot shop.

Solution: simple - Pilot Shop claim the shipping costs from Fedex and arrange for a courier to collect and return to them the faulty (or supposed faulty - they just don't work or show up on my PC) goods and replace them by charging me for shipping costs for the replacement unit (Beware PS I will be using markers on all components to ensure I do not receive the same unit) OR source the same product in the UK for direct delivery at a much lesser cost and for once stomach any extra costs involved in sourcing outside the USA.

I re-iterate, the unit was my xmas present after many months of saving as I am disabled (not stupid) and have to live in a one-bed flat where my PC is my life and cannot afford any more costs involved with this unit. CH Products do not want to know and refuse to offer any tech support to resolve the situation one way or another and Pilot SHop don't think it is anything to do with them. Mike I will let you decide BUT this serves as a warning as far as hardware is concerned. Oh and to all concerned look on the web and see if you can find a UK source for these pedals and if you do look at their price compared to the much reduced PS price at almost half price. Pooleys is a well respected flight shop based just 6 miles from at Cranfield (EGTC) and their cost for the pedals is £130 (approx $260) compared to PS price of £62 (approx$120) and tell me what your choice would be before knowing how you may be dealt with given that the goods are or could be faulty.

Apologies for being so long-winded but you now have the FULL FACTS all provable by emails.

You are correct Mike as regards WCATC and Aviator, just haven't found time recently for even flying on VATSIM which I am grateful to JB for my being able to.

[mickj300]

Ron,

I have watched this thread and feel I have to butt in.

If you deal with a foreign product supplied by a foreign supplier, it's not unreasonable to expect to have to make calls to that country if it goes wrong.

The CH pedals are not 'worthless xxxx' but an excellent product which I and many others in the flightsim community thoroughly enjoy. We're all sorry yours don't work and I'm sure PilotShop want to sort it out for you if they are indeed faulty. But you need to go down the tech support route with CH first to establish that for sure otherwise you may find yourself responsible for the return shipping and restocking charges. That would be the same with most online purchases including here in the UK.

You surely don't expect anyone to actually meet their promised delivery times in the week before Christmas? I'm sure you read their terms of sale before proceeding with your order so you will know they expressly state that promised delivery times are not guaranteed.

You could have gone along to Pooleys and paid more as you say, but you would buy the comfort and security of having the ability to return them over the counter. Or you could got them cheaper at flightstore.co.uk - £99.99, but free UK mainland delivery for orders over £30. "Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice"

Personally I don't like to look on a respected public forum dedicated to our hobby and see sarcastic insults directed at the USA or anyone else for that matter. OK, you have a problem with that supplier and I'm afraid you will have to persist with them in a firm but polite and professional manner. But you've had the pedals less than 24hrs, I think anyone would need a bit longer than that to resolve the problem, especially at the start of an international holiday. It's a bit early to resort to personal insults in public, you will loose their respect and with it, their desire to help you and others from this country.

So chill out, there's nothing more you can do until after Christmas so it's not worth getting so stressed about it. I hope you'll be able enjoy tomorrow's event without pedals and look forward to seeing you there.

[toosmall]

Mick chill man as a fellow UK resident you KNOW the laws and rules as well as anyone probably but that is NOT the point of the thread IF you read it properly.

1. NOBODY is USA bashing more importantly and certainly not me

2. Anything purchased that then doesn't function has two names in my book, in your words "worthless C**P" and in my words and under UK law "not fit for purpose".

I have enjoyed flight sim for years and during those years I have learnt a lot BUT I take exception to someone who doesn't know what I have in writing or bothered to look in the pertinent places LIKE CH Products tech support. As stated they offer two forms of support:

1. For those either in the USA or outside who can afford costly and lengthy telephone calls or

2. Direct time chat via MSN and its derivatives which they chose to NOT use regardless

That is the point of the thread to show certain failings WHEREVER they have occurred and to show Pilot Shop that I as a citizen of this World like you and others have certain rights in law and one of those is to receive what I have paid for and that I have not, care to spend over £100 to prove me wrong?

[mickj300]

"Worthless xxxx" are your words, read you own message No6.

[toosmall]

apologies did not realise I had stated that but I do actually stand by that remark for the reasons stated.

I have now cancelled notifications as I feel this post may well degenerate into a free-for-all and that was never my intention. The "US & THEM" syndrome has already come into play as it always seems to do when various people have different attititudes and opinions and I never intended that to happen so I would prefer it if people who dare to comment stick to the facts and not make comments derogatory to anyone or anything other than that stated.

I used a public forum because regardless of opinion I have been given no option short of flying out to the states and placing the offending article on the desktop of those I and the law consider responsible BUT I can neither afford or have the inclination to do so because it would prove impossible. It took several months to save the money for the article, it would take YEARS to save enough to visit the states.

You have your opinions and also the right to place them here BUT I will not be a part of any free-for-all and I would ask that if that starts to happen the thread be locked to prevent it.

The Pilot Shop have my contact details as do CH Products and I suggest either or both do so ASAP holidays not withstanding and attempt to resolve the situation to satisfy all concerned in a manner that properly befits two companies who are in business to serve the flight sim community and to me at least have shown no care at all.

[jwenting]

and the most important lesson: next time you buy hardware buy it locally.
Service is easier, cheaper, and faster, and they actually have to abide by your local laws (the Pilotshop does not as they're based in the US, therefore aren't required to give you support over products they ship that come with a manufacturer warranty, a warranty that the manufacturer may also not have to honour if it's regional).
And the product may end up (as you experienced as well) more expensive when bought abroad due to shipping charges, import duties, backtaxes, etc. etc.

[BushPilot]

If all else fails why not go here, there are knowledgeable people here to help you out! Who knows, maybe it might work!

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/forumdisplay.php?f=6

[xxmikexx]

Hm-m-m-m ... BushPilot ... Brooklyn ... Does that make you a Flatbush Pilot?

[JimPadgett]

You could pull the good ole bait and switch.. find a vendor that allows returns for failed products, buy another unit.. put your bad one back in the box and return it..

Not real ethical, but it is done all the time... ( as long as there is no actual serial number check :-).. this could save you some $$ even if you have to pay restocking fee's, sometime that is less than shipping cost..

I don't remember if you emialed CH Products or not, but they have always been very helpfull to me...

[toosmall]

Must be the season of goodwill plus as I received a telephone call from Fedex UK offices and because of the time delays in delivering the product they have not only offered the cost of shipping but the complete cost of the order plus a tad on top by way of apology.

So the old one can now be thrown away as a useless and I can purchase a new one this time from a UK supplier very close to home who has stocked especially so alls well that ends well. Just one grip, Fedex will also be returning the shipping costs to the Pilot Shop as well so I hope they see sense and realise that was in fact my money and play ball and return it in which case I can then return the faulty goods direct to CH and if they do find them faulty replace them. Either way Pilot Shop must realise they owe me that shipping cost if refunded, which Fedex will inform me about so I will know, so if they have watched this thread or someone knows who Pilot Shop actually is as they ignored my email to them and ensures they realise their responsibilities. I am NOT asking them to refund anything other than that refunded to them which I have already paid.

[Dougal]

I know it's too late in this case, Sorry Ron, but I bought my CH gear from a UK supplier. I think it was RC simulations.

EDIT: Oops, missed a page sorry.

[toosmall]

I will purchasing my new pedals from Pooleys at Cranfield

They are £10 cheaper than RC sims
They are just 6 miles from me

[vgbaron]

Ron -

Try www.ch-hangar.com - this is their support forum and Bob Church ( the guru of joysticks) hangs out there. I have always been able to get good help from them. Maybe they can provide assistance or at least point you in the right direction.

I ahev always found CH to be a straight up company so there must be some misunderstanding here.

Good luck,

Vic

[Soundwhiz]

I bought my CH flight yoke from the Pilot Shop. While everything was fine on the shop's part, I was slammed with a merciless fine when my gear arrived here in Europe. It cost me almost more than half of the value of the product. It makes no sense to buy from outside of Europe if you're looking to buy these things new. I learned my lesson and ordered my next item, the CH pedals, from a European distributor. Communications were excellent and I'm pretty certain that had something been wrong with my stuff I wouldn't have had too much difficulty having them replaced. I'm just so grateful that my yoke arrived from Florida in one piece and working.

[xxmikexx]

Let's make sure that certain of your words get the attention they deserve:

"... everything was fine on the <Pilot> shop's part ..."

[SLuggy]

[QUOTE=toosmall;1088148]Must be the season of goodwill plus as I received a telephone call from Fedex UK offices and because of the time delays in delivering the product they have not only offered the cost of shipping but the complete cost of the order plus a tad on top by way of apology.


Hooray for FedEx; not too often I sing the praises on a large company, but FedEx do seem to be a small company that just grew really (really) big! Must fly a (virtual) FedEx bird sometime this week.

Oh, and hope you sort out your problem soon, toosmall. Seasons greetings to you!

Cheers, SLuggy in sunny Australia

[kingnorris]

[QUOTE=toosmall;1088148]Must be the season of goodwill plus as I received a telephone call from Fedex UK offices and because of the time delays in delivering the product they have not only offered the cost of shipping but the complete cost of the order plus a tad on top by way of apology.


Hooray for FedEx; not too often I sing the praises on a large company, but FedEx do seem to be a small company that just grew really (really) big! Must fly a (virtual) FedEx bird sometime this week.

Oh, and hope you sort out your problem soon, toosmall. Seasons greetings to you!

Cheers, SLuggy in sunny Australia


Well,thanks to the US Postal Service merging with them, we've helped them improve their services......hehehehe.........

[toosmall]

Soundwhiz stated: "I was slammed with a merciless fine when my gear arrived here in Europe. It cost me almost more than half of the value of the product. It makes no sense to buy from outside of Europe"

Whatever were you doing - regardless of my problems I was never ripped off or fined for ordering from the USA - The price plus shipping from Pilot Shop was the cost and price I paid and was never expected to pay anything on there arrival in the UK. In the old days people paid customs when goods were ordered and delivered anywhere else in the world inc Europe but that practice stopped years ago and the price quoted is the price paid plus shipping and no further costs are or would be due otherwise how would payware work over the internet, imagine ordering an aircraft from ie Flight 1 and having downloaded it being visited by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise to pay duty? It doesn't happen.

In case I appear to have it wrong could you explain the "merciless fine" and how it cost half the product price as the only charge that may occur is if you somehow negotiated a P.O.D. (pay on delivery) for the shipping costs which in my case actually amounted to 2/3 the cost of the goods and also the reason for purchasing abroad and in this case from the USA.

As for the suggestion regarding approaching CH technical support you will see elsewhere that I did so and was eventually contacted by their Head of sales and marketing Debbie ???? who insisted I telephone them for further support or send the goods back at my expense, an expense I could not afford but WILL DO when Pilot Shop refund the shipping costs being refunded to them by Fedex on top of the compensation to me directly, which shows how little CH actually care and my point on that matter is WHY advertise and sell these goods in the UK/Europe if you have no intention to honour any warranty (in this case a 2 year warranty) other than to those in the USA? Having replaced the defective goods I will then ensure that hardware will only ever be purchased from the UK to ensure this problem never happens again, and final point Pilot Shop don't mind taking our business why should they then exclude themselves from also honouring any warranty supplied with these goods after all what have they got to lose except their reputation when they do what they have done?

1. The cost of the goods plus shipping amounted to £110 GBP approx £62 for the goods and approx £44 shipping.
2. RC Simulations charge more than that JUST for the goods alone not including shipping/postage.
3. Pooleys, a renowned supplier to the professional market in flight but also some flight sim goods also charge £109 GBP JUST for the pedals BUT because I am only 5-6 miles away can collect them personally BUT that will still involve a cost to me of fuel used to get there and back.

From the above you can now see that buying from the USA was and did make sound economic sense. And had Fedex delivered as per their schedule they wouldn't have made an offer of a compensation payment which amounts to the total cost of the goods including shipping which now means I can purchase from a UK supplier.

BUT again at no point in any of the transactions was I or anybody else likely to be "mercilessly fined" for ordering from amywhere in the world.

[Brushstrokes]

Well, Ive had problems with FlightShop as well, and I live in the U.S

[Soundwhiz]

toosmall, I am a bit perplexed by the tone in your post, but I'll hi-five you anyway. I had to pay a tax for my yoke. I live in the EU. Just recently, I bought a TrackIR Pro from within the EU and I paid no tax. Had I bought it from the US I would again have been taxed when it got to me here.

What's with the "mercilessly fined" quotations? Do you think the expression is an exaggeration when I only half the value of the product in taxes?

To me it sounds like you don't shop around for the best deal. I use ebay and I have found plenty good sim equipment, brand new items, have had them promptly delivered without any extra taxation. When I bought from the US I got shafted over here, and boy it sure sounds like you did too.

Is it that you're on the defensive because someone cried wolf after taking your comments as America bashing?

[toosmall]

I wasn't shafted, I wasn't asked to pay any extras and I also live in the EU after all the UK is a founder member, and as pointed out sound economic sense is what made my purchase from the USA all the more worthwhile.

The cost of the pedals including shipping from the states still cost less that most UK retailers, simple, what I didn't expect is to find in this day and age two companies devoid of any care as regards the supplied 2 year warranty - CH want me to make an expensive telephone call to the USA from the UK to obtain tech support when they actually prefer customers use MSN, doesn't make sense at all and as for the Pilot Shop well they cannot even be bothered to A) reply to my email to them or B) come to this forum and put their point of view unless they are afraid of having to admit they don't care.