2 vs 3

[andyjohnston]

I do almost all my flying from the 2D panel, I hope the new sim won't be entirely VC oriented. Has anyone seen any of the panels yet?

[heyer]

>... I hope the new sim won't be entirely VC oriented.

That's what I hope too.

[tdragger]

<<Has anyone seen any of the panels yet?>>

Yes.

[andyjohnston]

Alright, you got me there. I guess you aren't willing to share that info...

[tdragger]

It's Friday. I get a little punchy towards the end of the week. :)Don't sweat it, when the time comes we'll let you see them.

[RyanbATC]

There's another vote from me too :) IF that makes any difference :)

[tgibson]

Hi,

Andy, didn't know if your comment was sincere or joking...

If he's already seen the 2D panels for FSX, then they will be in there, right? :)

Take care,

[andyjohnston]

Well, I asked if anyone had seen the panels. Do the VCs count as panels? I don't know. I meant 2D but didn't specify that.

[tgibson]

Oh, I was talking about your "hope it's not only VC-oriented" comment. Obviously they are including 2D panels.

Take care,

[Lou_Betti]

No one knows for sure, Tom, et al, but I think I know the FS team's philosophy well enough to figure that 2D panels will be alive and well in FSX. They didn't cut back on them in FS9.

It's only certain folks in FS who think the VC is everything and that FS should drop the 2D. I see no rationale behind this thinking, and see no reason why MS would drop the 2D panels.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a hint from me, and added a 2D "landing view" panel, or who knows what else!

Regards,
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[font size=1][font color=blue]Can you pilot a plane, instead of programming an FMC to do it for you?[/font color= blue][/font size=1]

[n4gix]

>In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a hint from me,
>and added a 2D "landing view" panel, or who knows what else!

Personally, I'd rather they take my hint and provide proper gauge backlighting! ;)

[bjpilot]

now THAT would be awesome! :)

[zoynyne]

Well I'll second the notion that there's room for both 2D and 3D in FS.

I cannot fathom regressing back to 2D panels while enjoying the views - which is what half of flying is about.

I cannot fathom the absence of 2D panels when trying to get "serious" with simulating flight.

Not everyone has a setup that's conducive to doing everything in the 3D cockpits. Even if you DO, there are still times when the 2D panel is what's needed.

IMO we have a long way to go in the 3D world before the 2D panel is completely obsolete.

[Lou_Betti]

Is anyone here actually worried that MS will not have 2D panels in FSX?

If so then:

You have probably been reading too many posts from those who **think** VC's are more realistic, and...

We've got a guy like that on the DF beta team, who thinks FS should ditch the 2D panels because the VCs are "more realistic".

One time when I spoke with him on the phone, I reminded him that I have far more hours taxiing an airplane than he has flying one!

Come to think of it, I have more hours waiting for an IFR clearance than he has flying!

While I certainly cannot give you a definite yes/no answer, as I do not know it, I will guess that those who are worried that 2D panels will not be in FSX are worrying themselves needlessly. Move on to some other topic; seriously.

I'd be willing to bet VERY good money that 2D panels WILL be in FSX, as MS knows that they are relatively easy to include, and not everyone can deal with / likes the VC.

Remember, FS is not designed for the, at best, the 5% that represent the "hardcore" market, it is designed for a much broader audience.

We'll see if I am right. Anyone willing to take the bet?

Regards,
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[font size=1][font color=blue]Can you pilot a plane, instead of programming an FMC to do it for you?[/font color= blue][/font size=1]

[Rockcliffe]

So ditch that guy from your beta team, Lou, and pick me :-)
Blair
CYOW

[tdragger]

<<Remember, FS is not designed for the, at best, the 5% that represent the "hardcore" market, it is designed for a much broader audience.>>

So, Lou, which view is meant for which market? ;)

[Sherm]

On the subject of 2D versus 3D panels, I have noted an unfortunate side-effect of the latest transparency anti-alaising feature (Adaptive anti-aliasing) on ATi cards when using the 2D panels. It looks like the ATi cards can't differentiate the 2D panels from a 2D sprite with an alpha texture (i.e the ATi card treats a 2D aircraft panel and an autogen tree exactly the same).

The result is that the 2D panels are supersampled and become blurry. I'm not sure how Nvidia cards handle this, since I have not tried a 7 series Nvidia card (and I'm a bit worried to on account of the many comments I have read about the filtering quality).

Anyway, although I normally prefer 2D panels, I'm not using them so much now that I use transparency AA. If I disable the AA supersampling on alpha textures, then all those ground objects using alpha textures look horrible. On the other hand, if I enable the AA supersampling, I get blurry 2D panels, which makes me want to use the 3D panels (which, incidentally, look much better on my ATi card with the adaptive AA enabled!).

[tdragger]

That's why we typically discourage folks from using driver settings to do AA since the game has no idea what's happening.

[Sherm]

Well so far as I understand, users don't really have much choice at the moment, since the current version of FS does not have options to enable either anisotropic filtering from within the game, nor the level of AA that I would like from within the game. Personally, I would not want to use anything less than 4 x AA in flight sim, even at the highest resolution possible. In my opinion, it's just a far too much of an image quality "critical" application to use anything but the absolute highest quality IQ settings available on any video card. Even the tinniest shortcomings in video card / card driver image quality stand out like dog's you-know-whats in FS.

I'm sure you have already decided on these matters, but I am hopeful the new version will allow any AA and AF settings to be set from within the game. I'm still not sure that would necessarily resolve the issue for those wanting to use transparency AA though. I think the blurriness is a side-effect of supersampling and I seem to remember getting it on the 2D panels when running FS2000 on my Voodoo 5500.

[Lou_Betti]

"So, Lou, which view is meant for which market?"

BOTH!

You have the virtual "captains" who want their 2D views spread across 257 different monitors (and think everyone is just like them), then those who have less hours flying GA aircraft than I have taxiing them, who think the VC is the "cats meow".

Then, you have those who want you guys to do something completely different, but that's a subject of a different post and forum. I think they want you to put a real plane on the CD.;-)

I'm still trying to figure that thread out.

Hey, Mike, you guys perform minor miracles for what is charged, but there will be those who will never understand the words to the song:

"ain't nuthin' like the real thing".

And there will never be. Though you folks will get pretty darn close, especially for the pittance you charge.

Just a shame some folks will never understand that.

Regards,
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[font size=1][font color=blue]Can you pilot a plane, instead of programming an FMC to do it for you?[/font color= blue][/font size=1]

[lnuss]

then those who have less hours flying GA aircraft than I have taxiing them, who think the VC is the "cats meow".

And there are some of us who don't meet THAT criteria that prefer the VC, as well, Lou, when it's well done (and that includes things like the default Cub, as well as your Baron).

[Lou_Betti]

What's your point, Larry?

Neither 2D or VC is the real thing, you know that, and you know that I have designed both over the years.

Until we can strap some VR device on our heads, and I do not mean Track IR either, it will always be a compromise.

I mean, we have folks who think that the VC is SO realistic that MS should scrap the 2D panels; give me a break. Then, we have those who realize the need for the 2D panels.

That beta tester I was talking about could not understand, when I tried to explain it to him one time, why our textures for the VC panel actually start off as the graphics for our 2D panels!

You like the DF Baron VC? Okay, great, then take a good look at the 2D panel.

The entire VC instrument panel texture comes from the master graphic I used to create the 2D panels! I chop it up for the left, right sides and landing views, then use the whole thing as the texture for the VC panel.

I'm pleased that I prefer neither, and switch back and forth between the two. ;-)

This is why I am almost certain that MS will continue to have 2D panels in FSX. I am far from being alone in this opinion.

Oh, BTW, my long time FS friend: I just assume MS do away with the 2D panels. Why? Because it is still extra labor for me, and I still feel the VC is the future, provided MS gives us a much better camera system (something like Active Camera) to deal with it.

I have a hunch they may do that also!

Even then, I could still make a case for pop-up 2D windows! ;-)

The 2D/VC debate has raged on ever since MS introduced the VC, and while with some aircraft the VC may be ideal, ultimately, there is no right or wrong, more realistic or less realistic when it comes to this. It's all a compromise, and I think MS is smart enough to realize that scrapping the 2D panels would be a big mistake, and I'll happily put in that extra labor to deal with them.

Frankly, I do not necessarily prefer my Baron's VC over the 2D panel. You may, but I do not. As to a Piper Cub, we're talking apples and oranges, and I would agree that with a Cub, the VC is all you need.

However, do not tell that to the folks who fly LDS 767!

Regards,
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[font size=1][font color=blue]Can you pilot a plane, instead of programming an FMC to do it for you?[/font color= blue][/font size=1]

[norton]

Im a 3d man, everything pops up individualy and the right size{no need for resizing] in the Dreamfleet Baron, because of this why would i go back to the unrealistic 2d where i cant see the engines the way you would flying a twin. Darryl, MEL/IFR Beechcraft Duchess