Aircraft behavior on the deck......

[velociriptor]

It would be a boon to see proper craft behavior on the ground
incorporated into the sim. I'm referring to the way aircraft sort
of slide about as if they're hydroplaning on a non-stick Teflon
coated surface in a fraction of earth's normal gravity.

Reminds me of the "Electric Football" game I got for Christmas
as a kid...

We need a cleaner representation of the "weight" of any given aircraft, as well as the friction and drag imposed upon it by
taxiing, landing, ground looping or dipping a wing into water.

Lately some designers have given some well deserved attention to detailed landing gear behavior which has enhanced the illusion of weight to a degree, but there is clearly room for improvement from
the sim developer's camp.

Happy Contails,

-rip-

[bjpilot]

Agreed.

[heyer]

>IFR: Time Turn Twist Throttle Talk

IFR (in Alaska): I Follow River ;-)

[Ronfreimuth]

>It would be a boon to see proper craft behavior on the
>ground incorporated into the sim. I'm referring to the way aircraft >sort of slide about as if they're hydroplaning on a non-stick Teflon
>coated surface in a fraction of earth's normal gravity.
>

>We need a cleaner representation of the "weight" of any given
>aircraft, as well as the friction and drag imposed upon it by
>taxiing, landing, ground looping or dipping a wing into
>water.

Rolling drag on hard surfaces is set way too high in SIM1.DLL. At 0.05, rather than the appropriate 0.015 to 0.20. While float AC 'stick' in the water.

>Lately some designers have given some well deserved attention
>to detailed landing gear behavior which has enhanced the
>illusion of weight to a degree, but there is clearly room for
>improvement from the sim developer's camp.
>-rip-

Poor ground handling is generally due to inappropriate MOI and distance settings in aircraft.cfg. Further, operating CG may be wrong. If the CG is somewhat aft, there is little weight on the NG wheel, so it skids. As it would in a real AC.

MoI's set to excessive values also make may add-on AC hard to steer. MoI's are correct in the MS defaults.

Taildraggers can not be modeled for realistic ground and other effects in FS9 since the prop effects on the tail have all disappeared. One can't steer with the prop blast, nor get the tail up correctly.


Ron

[velociriptor]

Ron,

Thanks for the info- my grasp of what is & isn't possible in MSFS is limited, so I have
some further observations/questions:

The "sliding on ice" behavior affects all aircraft to some degree, and is most apparent in
automobiles, buses, etc. designed to operate in the sim.

(I know it's a Flight Simulator now; but I'm looking to a future where all modes of travel will be accurately modeled in one all encompassing simulator.)

This unrealistic behavior is best observed from spot view.

So is it possible to model centrifugal forces that could alter the CG, thereby causing
the car/plane to react to overstress as it would in the real world when turned too
sharply at speed on dry pavement?

Thanks/Regards,

-rip-

[bjpilot]

">IFR: Time Turn Twist Throttle Talk

IFR (in Alaska): I Follow River "

Also have heard:

I follow Roads,
Railroad tracks,
rainbows,
rich girls

:)

[Ronfreimuth]

>Ron,
>
>Thanks for the info- my grasp of what is & isn't possible in
>MSFS is limited, so I have
>some further observations/questions:
>
>The "sliding on ice" behavior affects all aircraft to some
>degree, and is most apparent in
>automobiles, buses, etc. designed to operate in the sim.

May not be 'designed' with appropriate CG, etc. Further, I think some aerodynamic parameters have to be set with 'appropriate' values or the FS simulation code messes up.

>(I know it's a Flight Simulator now; but I'm looking to a
>future where all modes of travel will be accurately modeled in
>one all encompassing simulator.)

>This unrealistic behavior is best observed from spot view.

>So is it possible to model centrifugal forces that could alter
>the CG, thereby causing
>the car/plane to react to overstress as it would in the real
>world when turned too
>sharply at speed on dry pavement?
>-rip-

AC definitely lean to one side if turned too rapidly. I've even had some tip on the wing.

Note most jets are set with much higher NG steering limits than real AC enable during the TO roll. +/- 5 degrees is the typical limit, and TO NG steering may be normally done with a 'tiller'. The rudder handles TO steering once the speed is high enough.

The Global Flyer only has toe brakes to control TO steering.

Taxi steering may be +/- 85 deg for a Jet Transport, and handled with a tiller. That is way too much for MSFS when controlled by the rudder pedals, it makes the nose tire skid if rotated too much at higher speeds.

The main problems I see with FS2K to FS9 ground handling is that lighter AC, say 2500 lb, are often unstable on the runway, especially when set with real MoI's.

I think some problems, including the above, are due to a limited iteration rate, note LG struts don't articulate as fast on rough ground as real struts would.

Ron

[tdragger]

What he said. <g>

[velociriptor]

Yo tdragger,

Thanks for the limk; some good, sound advice about posting feature
requests there.

I'm just an aircraft repainter, so Ron's response just blew right
past me. Informative as it probably is, all I heard was "limitations".

The behavior of simulated mass under stress I'm talking about
is portrayed fairly well here: http://nyan.se/TBS.wmv

Regards,

-rip-

[tdragger]

Reminds me of a "Far Side" cartoon that compared what we say to dogs to what dogs hear. I'll I heard was, "Blah Ginger! Blah blah blah Ginger blah blah." ;)

[Erick_Cantu]

Why would anyone want to waste time modelling a force that doesn't exist?

[velociriptor]

Hey!...

.. I resemble that remark!.. :+

[bjpilot]

"Why would anyone want to waste time modelling a force that doesn't exist?"

Friction? Weight? Inertia? Those don't exist? Wow, everything I have learned in all my years was a lie...