Aerobatic Aerodynamics

[rpembert]

I would like to be able to do a Lomcevak, Snap, Spin, Etc, with out the plane tumbling wildly about the sky. I mean do it for real to. I fly a Extra 300L in real life and would like to be able to practice my IAC sequence without my plane FALLING UP!!!! If I can do it in REALFLIGHT G3(RC simulator) I know that MS can incorperate it in to FSX. There might not be that many of us who like to Huck-it but I sure like too. If you are going to put an Extra on the Sim then Let us Ring it out the way it was should to be.

Give it to us MS. We did not get it in FS9 but we want it in FSX!!!!!

Thanks,
Joshua

[mg386]

Hey, I have some time in an EA300L as well. I agree in that aerobatic aerodynamics have been something lacking in fs for all time , and something that would be great if they would model correctly. It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest aerobatic planes available. where do you fly?

Mg.

[bjpilot]

Wow this is odd. I too fly the Extra 300L, lol.

http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/aircraft/extra.htm

And I wholeheartedly agree. :)

[bjpilot]

BTW, I was saying I agree to the original request, and to this:

"It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest aerobatic planes available. "

Oooooh yeah, I love it.

[rpembert]

I fly out of Headland, AL.
Just got done flying today and had a great time. Flew by my mom and dads house. Not mine but I fly it every chance I get. Fun stuff.

I would like to be able to fly Aerobatics to is full extent on the sim but FS9 would not let you do it. You guys know what I mean.
If you FSX guys are reading this let us fly our aerobatic AC to their full extent.

Thanks,
Joshua

[FITZY]

Another idea has occurred to me while reading the various "wish list" posts. I might as well add it hereas anywhere. How about a toggle or check box in the "select aircraft" dialog that allows one to switch between "easier" and "more realistic"? This might allow for and/or require two *.air files or *.cfg files, but there are not that many default aircraft to do it with. It might work better than the current slider.

[navav2004]

Hi'ya Guy's...I also have a *Very Little* Aerobatic stick time...None in the Extra though ;( ...Reguardless..As you all well know...My life changed the day I saw the world upside down...So I have an idea where ya'll are coming from...

I just wanted to mention..For the time being...If you will go to the Flightsim File Library and do a search for Long Island Classic's Christian EagleII...Those guys have done a Really Nice Job with the FDE!!

Now if you know anything about editing aircraft configs and .air files...You can fine tune it to Really Really Sweet!! Out of the box it is a tad too aggressive...I toned things down a bit and man...It's Nice...

If any of you have any questions feel free to PM me and I could help you out with the configs...

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/Attachments/up1/101993.jpg

[bjpilot]

Nice knife edge!

[AirbusAces]

Agreed!

Reading about Inverted Spins today I decided to try one in the FS9 Extra. O'dear!!! :-) Back to practing Straight and Level ;-)

[bjpilot]

I'm actually at the airport now, I have s flight slot in the Extra in 10 minutes. Will let you know how it went :)

[BrettVisionSLR]

The FSX Extra is a little better than previous versions, but really poor in my opinion. The best aerobatic flight model I've yet seen in this sim is the Long Island Classics Christen Eagle. They also make a nice SuperDecathlon. The RealAir SF260 is nice, as is the Spit. Unlike most all other MSFS planes they can actually knife edge, slip, spin, snap in what are at least semi-believable ways. Though that absurd climbing and accelerating UFO thing still happens if you aren’t careful. I had high hopes that the flight models would be improved in FSX, but so far the old standbys are still the ones to use for that aspect of simming. X-Plane and IL-2:Forgotten Battles for the best flight physics during maneuvering flight, LockOn isn't bad for jets but scripting in the FM is not my favorite, RealFlight, and AeroFlyPro aren't too bad for RC, but they still require aileron for snaps and spins, and nearly ignore rudder inputs. . .I guess it's going to be a while before we get a decent flight model, but I'm hoping that Battle of Britian:Storm of War that will include an Su-26 will finally bring it all together! Of course the die-hard history buffs are complaining about that add-on, but myself and the other group of pilots that fly the IL-2 line are pulling heavily for it! I've been encouraging the producer of that sim for some time to continue to refine the FM that was already sufficiently detailed to render accurate aerobatics a possibility for the first time in a sim and it has been improving a lot, but we still have to fly Fw190s painted like Sukhois. . .that will change in the next sim!

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/index.htm

For now, go get the LIC Eagle, and take a look at the IL-2:Forgotten Battles/Pacific Fighters lineup. I've got at least five different versions of the LICEagle FM in various planes, the FSX Extra is next!

-Brett
http://www.iac38.org/
(been here since 1997, but new login)

[ATSMark]

i fly aerobatics as well mostely citabria and decathalon time . but have some pitts s2b s2c and extra 200 time. ive found i cant really practice anything on fs9 or fsx lol. the super d for fs9 was ok but the roll rates i have found on all the pitts and extras as well as the power to weight ratios are crap. fsx extra 300 seems to have pretty realistic characteristics but also find alot of false aspects.....

[Nomad76]

More to the point, if they're going to include a mission that requires us to knife edge.. how about they make is to that we CAN knife edge first?? That really ticked me off. They make a mission that requires us to do something that their flight model doesn't even allow us to do.

[FSPilot_123]

You can do it with full rudder opposite bank. Good luck making it through the next gate on the first pass though. :/

I've always wanted to get into aerobatics. For the most part my flying has been very straight and level.

What can I do to change the Extra's FDE for FSX? I -really- love flying this thing, but I know it can't do what the real thing can.

I'm downloading Long Island Classic's Christian EagleII as we speak. :)

[BrettVisionSLR]

I agree. . .but notice how the voice over says you just need to be banked more than 60 degrees. I thought the exact same thing though, the first thing I did when I loaded up FSX was the RedBull mission, at the KE gate I went into the dirt when I treated the FSX Extra like a real one. Booo

Now what I need to do is make it so I can fly that mission with the LIC Eagle, it still has less than perfect KE, but it WILL do it.

You could copy the default Extra folder and then modify the air files to give it the characteristics of another plane that is a littl ebetter, and then tweak it to more Extra300 like behaviours. I intend to do that.

-Brett
http://www.iac38.org/
(been here since 1997, but new login)

[napamule2]

Just wondering how many of you 'real' pilots turn off auto co-ordination (rudder) when you fly FS9 or FSX? But, even then, I agree it's not perfect. I uploaded cfg and air file for Extra 300 to make it more flyable (couldn't do any aerobatics, or land). Going to plug it in to FSX E300 and see what happens.

It's like FSX still has 'auto' trim and rudder 'limiter', no matter what you do. I have E300 doing 10 g's turns in FS9. I have an idea the FSX air file stiffles anything you do in cfg. So change the air file. Right? Nothing says you can't use a good FS9 air file in FSX.

I just shoehorned Mike Stone's Gruman Goose G21 v2 into FSX and it flys good. (Why? Because I did not buy the 'Deluxe' version and wanted it in FSX, that's why-heehee.) I used Chicilo's contact points, and added some sections to cfg, and used Mike's air file (no changes) and all is well. Water landing is good, even if the tail sinks down quite a bit, it don't crash it, like the old Grumman Mallard did. I also added a water rudder so it steers in the water, as it did not turn AT ALL when in the water. The line is so:
point.13= 5, -14.50, 0.00, -2.60, 10000.00, 1.00, 0.50, 20.00, 1.00, 2.50, 0.640, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
Maybe you can add it to FSX 'Deluxe' ver Gooose, too? Will report back 'tamale' about how it went tonight (morning?) with E300 mods. (I'LL FIX IT, sw help me!) All I need is input as to what is 'wrong' with it (opinion or choice) and I can make changes. The idea of 2 cfg and 2 air is ok, but you can have 1 cfg and 2 air files (one FS9 and one FSX) for comparison. Have to go 'push in' (timecard) now (ie: work on E300). 'Push out' around 5 or 6 am. I can make is so loose, your stobe lights will get brighter (10 g's)(heehee).
Chuck

[FSPilot_123]

I fly with it off, just because I love the realism aspect of FS. I've been considering turning it on though just because it's so second nature when you're flying you barely even notice that you're doing it.

[napamule2]

The question was directed at the 'hot shots' doing aerobatics (with the auto-coordination ON? haha, can't be done) and not just general flying, but I leave it OFF all the time too. Except for heavies. It's harder to do a 'neat' turn, but with time I am getting better.

NOTICE: Last night I worked on cfg and air file for the FSX's E300 (like I said I might) and just finished uploading it. Should be there a day before CandyWeen (if a wicked Witch don't steal it). You can fly with wings at 90 degrees (knife edge) all day long now. Hope you realize it was a rush job, but it works good. File name for upload is 'e300fsx1.zip' in case you can't get it until next weekend (next month?) (heehee). Size is 441 kb, due to short video.
Chuck B
'napamule'

[ATSMark]

i turn it off when im trying to do some aerobatic maneuvers. but usually keep it on otherwise. i dont like how you loose rudder authority with auto coordination on.

[StaTik]

I would be happy if the sim would do a proper side slip.

[BrettVisionSLR]

>The question was directed at the 'hot shots' doing aerobatics
>(with the auto-coordination ON? haha, can't be done). . .
>Chuck B
>'napamule'

What, are they flying with keyboard?!?! I can't speak for the rest of em, but I haven't flown with auto-coord on since I got a joystick for flight sim on my Atari540ST. Mouse flying got old fast. Both CH and Saitek make affordable rudder pedals that anyone paying 75.00 for a sim surely must own already???

The implication that "they must be using auto-coordination since the KE doesn't" work also implies that the maker of that statement either hasn't tried KE, or simply doesn't know what to expect if they did it correctly. The merit of the initial statement is pretty obvious if you know what knife edge *should be like. But OK, maybe you were just being "funny".

-Brett
http://www.iac38.org/

[BrettVisionSLR]

>I would be happy if the sim would do a proper side slip.

Yeah, the issue with the side slip is probably related to the issues with the KE. As you probably have seen, even the planes that hold the side-slip attitude will drift in the direction of the low wing with full opposite rudder, you cant stop the yawing towards the low wing in all but a very, very, few addon planes.

The thing that I don't understand is why MS doesn't incorporate the flight models that do a better job of it even after they've been out for some years now. I suppose it "supports the little guy" by making us have to buy secondary add-ons to get decent flight physics. The RealAir stuff, along with the Long Island Classics models will do slips pretty accurately, though the best sim for that is Oleg Maddox's IL-2/Forgotten Battles, Pacific Fighters line of WWII sims. When the SU comes out for the next title he is producing, it should be the best aerobatic FM by far. . .too bad most people who will appreciate it won't even think to buy a "combat game from a developer I haven't heard of." I was one of those for a while until another pilot and sim pilot whose opinion I respected pointed me to the IL-2 sim. I do a fair amount of mentoring and most of the people I fly with are students who already have flight sims. We use IL-2 for the presolo phase working on basic airmanship and maneuvers and then use MSFS or X-plane for procedures. For stalls, spins, slow flight, coordinated flight, take-offs and landings, and things like crosswind landings with actual forward and side slip character, and even gyroscopic effects of the prop are great in IL-2:FB.

I want to see sims improve, and a little competition never hurts. I'm not a "fanboy" of any one sim, I have them all, and use them for their respective strengths, but I'd like to see the developers pushed to add realism and not just eye candy. I do love the shared cockpit concept for flight training and crew etc, but the flight model is the heart of a flight sim.

Oh, and while we are knocking the Extra, what's up with the sighting devices that are adjusted for someone 2 feet back in the tail?? Nobody test flew it before putting it on the DVD? It's one thing to not have the coding ability to write a nice flight model, but moving that sight to the proper place is a simple job of placing the graphic elsewhere. Obviously the model isn't aimed at people who would actually use it realistically. I've owned pretty much every version of Flight Sim, but at some point MS needs to catch up to what others are doing, being the financial giant that MS is makes it even less excusable that they rest on their laurels.

-Brett
http://www.iac38.org/

[ATSMark]

hey brett i notice you belong to chapter 38, where do you fly out of?

[BrettVisionSLR]

I live in Davis and am primarily based out of 0O5 for XC machines, for aerobatics I fly out of KLVK, and coaching down at 3CA7 (Metz), and KIC. In SoCal I fly out of SZP. I noticed in your post earlier that you list the S-2B/C and Extra 200. . .I'm guessing you too fly out of Attitude Aviation, since that's the only place you will find such a fleet!

[ATSMark]

ya the one and only attav . i actually used to work at attitude before i went into the navy. but yes im back flying there now mostely in the citabria. trying to get my feet as wet as possible with aerobatic flight . being only 24 i have a long road ahead lol.

[napamule2]

Brett,
I have a joystick, and you can tell if auto-coordination is on or off. I never have had pedals. It is my preference (joy) after flying helicopters. Joy is mounted 45 degrees on my right side, on an old big speaker box, and weighted down with weights. It don't move. So, there is nothing on desktop except keyboard, and nothing (where I like to stretch my legs) under the desk either. It's always 'ready' (no 'set up' required). One hand, and my feet don't get involved, for 'high efficiency' type flying. No Yokes, either, OK. :-)
Chuck B
'napamule'