Confused, Frustrated and Depressed. HELP! ;*)

[turnip579]

I operated the FMC in PMDG's 777 for FLY2 and had no problems so I understand the basics of it. I tried to go thru the tutorial where you depart from Schipol. My problem is this...
I entered all the data where it was supposed to go per the tutorials instructions. ( I tried the tutorial twice ) When I depart the runway, I get above 400 Ft AGL and activate the LNAV and VNAV and then the CMD "A" switch. Upon climbing, it says TO on the panel just above N1 but then before I get to the assigned altitude (5000), VNAV shuts off and there is no TO, CLMB or CRZ on the N1 panel.
The tutorial says to hit the CMD "A" button prior to takeoff but nothing happens. ( I think that may be a mistake.) I tried to re-engage the VNAV but nothing happens.
The tutorial says to enter the new altitude of 15,000 into the FMC but doesn't say how to do it.
LNAV works fine, but the VNAV is really confusing me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[Shotgun]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 01:05AM (EDT)[p]First, take a deep breath. :-) O.K. Are you working through the tutorial in the FMC manual or the one you download separately? The separate download was written before any updates were available and contains a work-around for an FMC bug that has been fixed. This may be confusing you. The re-written tutorial included with the FMC manual has removed this work-around, but still wants you to select CMD A on the ground. You cannot do this now - you have to be at or above 400'AGL.

That said, the FMC manual tutorial is very specific about each step. The steps and keys to enter the CRZ ALT are there. Maybe you were looking at the earlier tutorial? If so, download the FMC manual -(If you haven't already.) the "revised" tutorial is in the back.

If you still have some specific questions, holler.

HH,
http://home.mmcable.com/whbweb/WHB.gif

[turnip579]

Are you working through the tutorial in the FMC manual or the one you download separately?

I downloaded it but it apppears to be the same one as the one in the manual.


The separate download was written before any updates were available and contains a work-around for an FMC bug that has been fixed. This may be confusing you.

Ah... OK

The re-written tutorial included with the FMC manual has removed this work-around, but still wants you to select CMD A on the ground. You cannot do this now - you have to be at or above 400'AGL.

That said, the FMC manual tutorial is very specific about each step. The steps and keys to enter the CRZ ALT are there. Maybe you were looking at the earlier tutorial?

I was trying to go by the one that I downloaded. I didn't read thru the one in the FMC manual as I thought it was the same one.

If so, download the FMC manual -(If you haven't already.) the "revised" tutorial is in the back.

Thanks. I'll get back to ya thru this thread.

Turnip

[alrux]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 01:30AM (EDT)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 01:17 AM (EDT)

Now I don't understand!

There is only one tutorial from Schipol and is in the FMC manual.

The tutorial in the Quick reference manual is Madrid- Las Palmas.

Is this manual

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/Downloads/files/ops_manual/FMC_Manual.zip

the last and updated version?

regards

[Shotgun]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-01 AT 01:32AM (EDT)[p]O.K. We're talking about to different tutorials. There is a walk through flight (Madrid-Las Palmas)in the quick reference. There is an FMC specific tutorial in the back of the FMC manual(Schipol). There is also an FMC tutorial (Schipol) that you can download seperately from the Dreamfleet accessories download page.

Now, the last two are the same (Schipol), but the one in the FMC manual has been updated some and has many nice pics added. It still says to activate the CMD A on the ground, but other than that, it's accurate and can be followed step by step. (So, yes, you are correct about the latest version - it's in the FMC manual.)

I just thought that maybe the confusion came from the earlier FMC tut. Sorry if I made it worse. :-)

HH,
http://home.mmcable.com/whbweb/WHB.gif

[whoosh]

Hi there,

Bill is right, the FMC tutorial which comes with the FMC manual can still be followed step by step with the exception of engaging Cmd A on the ground, which cannot be done anymore as the AP's can only be engaged from 400ft and up. Other than that, following the tutorial step by step will have you flying :-)

Best regards, Elmar

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/Forum_Banners/DF_BANNER_FORUM_ELMAR.jpg



[b]***The FMC Preflight's 8 steps***
1. set Ref Airport on POS INIT page
2. set Origin and Dest on RTE page
3. set Dep and Arr at DEP/ARR page
4. set GW, RESERVES and CRZ ALT at PERF INIT page and EXEC that
5. set OAT temp at TAKEOFF REF page
6. select V1, VR and V2 at TAKEOFF REF page to transfer them to EADI
7. check, confirm, edit your waypoints at the LEGS page
8. go back to RTE and ACTIVATE and EXEC the route

[caddis7]

Hi Elmar:
I love your tutorial EHAM-EGLL and I have flown it successfully. But I really hand flew it to a good landing. Could you make it a little clearer how you intercept the localizer and glidescope? You say"Check the magenta dashed line on the EHSI and click HDG SEL." I just don't grasp what you mean. Thank you for any help you may give me.

[turnip579]

Sorry, the manual I was using is from Elmar Calbo, dated July 28th 2001. EHAM to EGLL. I have the one called FMCMANUAL.ZIP now.

[turnip579]

You didn't make it worse. :-) So I need the FMC_MANUAL.ZIP version???? or the one that came with the plane?

[turnip579]

OK.... I flew the tutorial as planned. After takeoff, just prior to reaching the first waypoint... the VNAV on the Autopilot panel shuts OFF and the SPEED light comes ON. I had it set to 250 kts as requested on the tutorial. Is this normal as the tutorial has you enter an ALT of 6000 ft on the A/P panel. According to the FMC, the first altitude should be 15000 ft. Would the VNAV shut off and engage the SPEED button on the autopilot, if the altitude is lower on the A/P than it is in the FMC?

Turnip

[whoosh]

Hi Turnip,

The initial MCP altitude of 6000ft is what we want to do. It's the last restrictive altitude of our SID, and I do believe it's normal procedure to dial in that altitude into the MCP.

After clearing the restrictive waypoint (which in case of the tutorial is Valko), we dial in our cruise altitude to allow the FMC to command a climb.

Best regards, Elmar

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/Forum_Banners/DF_BANNER_FORUM_ELMAR.jpg

[whoosh]

Hi there,

I dont have the manual handy right now, but what we are aiming for is to be out of the FMC's control before reaching the runway fix.

To achieve this, we take over both the lateral and vertical navigation, not by hand, but by using the HDG SEL, V/S and SPEED modes on the MCP.

Hope this, brief, explanation helps :-)

Best regards, Elmar

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/Forum_Banners/DF_BANNER_FORUM_ELMAR.jpg



[b]***The FMC Preflight's 8 steps***
1. set Ref Airport on POS INIT page
2. set Origin and Dest on RTE page
3. set Dep and Arr at DEP/ARR page
4. set GW, RESERVES and CRZ ALT at PERF INIT page and EXEC that
5. set OAT temp at TAKEOFF REF page
6. select V1, VR and V2 at TAKEOFF REF page to transfer them to EADI
7. check, confirm, edit your waypoints at the LEGS page
8. go back to RTE and ACTIVATE and EXEC the route

[caddis7]

Hi Elmar:
Thank you for your reply. just 1 more question...the heading to be punched in just prior to hitting HDG SEL is the runway heading 273. Correct?

[turnip579]

Elmar,
Thank you for trying to help me. I guess what is confusing me a little is that fact that the VNAV dis-engages so that I can maintain 6000 feet ( entered on the MCP ) until VALKO. Per the tutorials instructions, this should not happen. Per the tutorials instructions, the VNAV should stay engaged and there should be CRZ on the panel ( above the N1 gauge ).

1. VNAV dis-engages
2. VNAV light on MCP goes OFF.
3. SPEED light on MCP goes ON and plane flies at preset 250 knots.
4. FMA states the following.
MCP SPEED ALT ACQ LNAV CMD
As you can see, the VNAV has shut itself off.

Thanks again for your input and to the others who have tried to help. Your effort is sincerely appreciated.

Turnip

[whoosh]

Hi there,

Nope, we need a course which will intercept the runway fix (i.e., a course which will put the dashed magenta line on the ND over the runway fix)

Best regards,

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/Forum_Banners/DF_BANNER_FORUM_ELMAR.jpg

[caddis7]

Thanks Elmar! I understand now.....what I need is the intercept course. I realized my mistake after I wrote my message and I tried it out and it works.

[turnip579]

Bump

[whoosh]

Hi Turnip,

I am a bit puzzled by the situation you are describing, especially since I have flown a huge number of FMC flights without experiencing it.

If all is well, I should have time later today to try and re-create your issue. One thing is very important -> dont go clicking buttons continuesly until they light up.

Best regards, Elmar

http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/Forum_Banners/DF_BANNER_FORUM_ELMAR.jpg

[turnip579]

Hi Elmar,
I was able to get the flight plan to execute as per your instructions one time. Then I tried it again and the VNAV disengaged. I tried to fly a couple of others and the same thing happens. Right after takeoff, the VANV dis-engages. Could this be a WinXP problem? ( Just a thought. ) All the data I enter goes into the FMC without a problem. This is really weird and driving me crazy.

Thanks for any help.

[Cruiser]

Im also using WinXP and have the same problem, probably not XP but who knows.. Also, my FMC sticks me on a 3k4 cruise altitude until im over the channel.. Im still puzzeld,

GL

Nigel

[turnip579]

Nigel
glad to hear that I am not the only one having this problem.
In Elmar's tutorial it says
""Once we pass VALKO, we will set the altitude on the FMC to 15000ft."" I am not sure how to set a differant altitude in the FMC. I thought you could only change it on the autopilot panel. And as soon as I set it to 15,000 ft at VALKO, the VNAV firewalls the throttles and I zoom to 304 kts at 6000 ft. It does climb to 15000 when I set it though and it does stay in VNAV mode.
On another note, I tried to create a flight plan from Seattle using a SID/STAR in the database. This FMC wants me to climb to 18,000 feet in less that 10 miles. I'm at a loss as to what the function of this FMC is other than to steer the plane. If it is unable to control the speed of the plane at differant waypoints and altitudes and maintain 250 kts below 10,000 ft then I think I blew 30 bucks on something that I shouldn't have.

However, it appears as if no one else is having this same problem other than you and I. As a real world pilot, I am very familiar with how this stuff is "supposed" to work but I have been known to make a stupid mistake. :-)

Roy "Turnip" Hyland

[Murphy99]

I came to the forum looking for help on the very same thing!!

I've tried the tutorial 3 times now and only managed to get the FMC to work as described on the third try. The main problem I found was that the VNAV button does not behave as you would expect from the tutorial. After take off it did not light up when pressed but the aircraft did climb to 6000ft. When it was time to climb to 15,000ft nothing happened when I changed the height on the MCP (I think there is a error in the tutorial - it says "Once we pass VALKO we will set the altitude on the FMC to 15,000" - I assumed it meant set the altitude on the MCP(?)).
I had to press the VNAV button again (this time it did light up!). Engines increased thrust and the aircraft quickly climbed to 15,000ft - at which point the VNAV light went out again! (At no point did I see the FMC in CRZ mode as per the tutorial)

On descending to 3400ft - same thing - entered 3400 on the MCP altitude and nothing happened until I pressed VNAV (which lit up during descent and then went out again).

I flew the intercept to the ILS but noted that both A and B autopiolts had to be on Manual to intercept both the glideslope axis. Flew the ILS on automatic all the way down to 400ft, throttles to idle at 40ft for a smooth landing.

I'm still confused regarding proper operation of the FMC - should the VNAV light go out when arriving at the desired altitude and do you have to engage it again to change height via the MCP?

I dont mean to sound ungrateful Elmar - thank you very much for the tutorial - it's probably just my stupidity!!

Murphy

PS I should mention that I'm using FS 2002.

[turnip579]

I think we are all grateful to Elmar for the tutorial. The VNAV should stay engaged all the time, or until you disengage it. At least, that is my interpretation. On the PMDG 777 FMC for FLY2, it does stay engaged. It hits target altitudes at preset speeds while the LNAV steers the plane. Are you using WinXP?

Can anyone help us out here? Maybe someone from DF.

Roy "Turnip" Hyland

[Murphy99]

Hello Roy,

I'm running Win98SE, not XP.

I have flown the tutorial twice more - with complete success!!

What I didn't do before (and I've not idea if it is significant!) was use the TOGA switch for takeoff - I flew the takeoff manually. Perhaps this resulted in the flight director not engaging properly? Anyway, the VNAV light did come on when I pressed VNAV and remained on throughout the flight and CRZ mode was showing when I reached 15000ft. The descent to 3400ft took place with nothing more than a change to the altitude on the MCP.

I dont know if any of this is of any help to you but for me, it seems to be a case of not following EVERY step in the tutorial (i.e. missing out on the TOGA)

Murphy

[turnip579]

Hi Murphy,
Well... that tells me that it is probably not a WinXP problem. I flew the plan as per the instructions. I was so frustrated that I mad sure I did EVERYTHING as instructed.

I made a flightplan from KLAX to KLAS and everything went as planned. I made one from KBOS to KJFK and it was a disaster. The only SID available in the database for that airport sent me 30 miles north of the airport before letting me turn south towards KJFK. I will experiment with it a little more and post my results on this thread.

Turnip

[ilh]

KBOS doesn't really use SIDs much, mostly radar vectors. As far as I can tell, the usual route is KBOS LUCOS SEY PARCH CCC ROBER KJFK. There is a Logan2 departure, but it doesn't really make sense to program it into the FMC: edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?NorthEast/BOS_LOGAN%202%20DEP.GIF

What was the disaster on KBOS-KJFK? I fly this all the time. I should say that I do not select any SIDs or any STARs for KBOS-KJFK, just runways. For the reverse route, I use MERIT ORW PVD WINNI.

Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

[Han]

Having the same problem with the vnav, every so often it works, and sometimes it doesn't, I can't find any pattern in this vnav thing, see my post in the other thread about this problem.
I use Fs2002 and win98se.
rgds Han de Roos

[turnip579]

Lee,
I realize that KBOS and KJFK are kinda close to each other. I was using these 2 airports as a reference for learning the VNAV as I also fly the same route you stated. I still can't get the VNAV to stay engaged all the time. There is a serious glitch here somewhere that is driving me crazy. I make sure that I give the plane plenty of time to climb to the set altitude, as in... I'm not forcing the VNAV to do something that it can't accomplish. I think DF abandoned this thread.

Roy "Turnip" Hyland

[ilh]

What exactly goes wrong? I can engage VNAV at 400' AGL after takeoff and turn it off when I want to slow to 200-220 before intercepting ILS at the other end. VNAV works fine the whole way for me.

Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

[turnip579]

Lee,
Can you send me your flightplan. I would like to study it to see what I am doing wrong.

rhyland@mashell.com.

thanks a bunch

Roy

[dtandoori]

I also run FS2002 under win98se like Han de Roose and quite a few others I guess,meaning it most probably 's got nothing to do with XP.

The dreamfleet B737 I have is the latest FS2002 bought on dec 24 AND the same happenned to me wether trying the "spoken" KJFK-KPIT tutorial, the one in the manual and others I programmed with the FMC (without any mistakes I am sure). I also tried all the suggestions you all made(thank you all)!
Result as Han de Roos put it: vnav, every so often works, and sometimes it doesn't. It fails consistantly just after take-off but works randomly during the flight.
There is no consistant pattern that might lead to the problem hence the solution (?). It does not even change pitch (to send you fast back towards the ground) each time as it did the first 3 times.
The only pattern I discovered once VNAV was connected, is that the speed setting of 250 inputed in the corresponding CMD gauge falls "automatically" and consistantly to 110. Result: if still climbing B737 goes into a stall, if plunging you might have time to disconnect all and recover manually.Is there a bug between the speed setting and the VNAV then ?
Reading you all struck me some do have the problem some don't .
Could some of us got some files corrupted on certain days of downloads ...hmmm !
Anyhow this appears the biggest forum subject
It is up to Dreamfleet to sort it out for us
Ho! by the way the LNAV works perfectly
Sorry guys at Dreamfleet you came up with THE jewel but....
Please do not keep us guessing and waiting too long
kind regards to you all
Bernard Gavage
Brussels Belgium

[Han]

Exactly the same to me, also speed back to 110, often levelling off at 3500 ft. I gather from other posts, that it may have something to do with "leftovers" from previous flights. How do I get rid of these? Does it mean, that after each landing you have to restart FS to have a clean FMC or will exiting the FMC and restarting it do the same job? Thanks for any help on this, DREAMFLEET TEAM !!
I understand that DF is very busy, however having delivered the patch for fs2002 does not mean you can leave it and go to the next project and have the other members of this forum answer all questions. After all, as Bernard stated, you should provide a conclusive answer to these questions that keep cropping up. This constant stream of questions about this VNAV-thing might mean, that maybe either there is something wrong or that the tutorials are not clear enough.
Nevertheless, I appreciate your efforts and am otherwise very happy with the program, so don't get me wrong on this criticism.

Happy Newyaer, Han de Roos

[Ditchlights]

Hi Turnip,

I think I may (if you have not already resolved your issue with Elmar's tutorial) have found the problem. I, too, had the same VNAV problem. Not just once but everytime I tried this tutorial the VNAV light would illumine then extinguish as you noted in your posts. MCP speed would return to 110...everything went just the opposite of the tutorial. As I once again read your posts I decided to try it again but this time I looked carefully for discontinuities and altitude discrepancies that I had overlooked before. Once I cleared those up so that after the first alt indication of 500 ft there followed subsequent 6000 ft wpts., the FMC worked flawlessly.

Kind Regards,


John Franklin