Misusing this forum

[Patkorn]

I am not comfortable with the fact that this forum is (mis)used to argue thoughts of politics and warfare. Especially if some people start writing in a bigotary, dogmatic way. (I will not say names, but everybody observing this forum knows who they are.)

These discussions of what is right or wrong are leading absolutely nowhere. Everybody is entitled for his opinion and freedom of speach. Sadly some people misuse this and start arguing in a very subjective sort of way, also becoming personal, judging other members "level" of knowlege and indirectly claiming to be superior. That is a very unprofessional way of discussion. The only truth I see, is that this has absolutely nothing to do with flightsimming. Flightsimming is the common interest here and that is what this forum is used for. A debate on the currant world situation is okay but not in such a dominant manner that some members propagate to state their thoughts. A little more diplomacy and sensibility would be great really.

Bottom line is: know that you know nothing !

[toddrf]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-01 AT 11:41AM (EDT)[p]In order to remain restrained and professional, I suggest that you go to the correctly labeled thread "Anthrax etc." and take my words to heart.

By the way I have bachelor and masters degrees in philosophy with some work into a PhD so I think I can correctly remain professional if not dogmatic in my arguments and yet still remain coherent and logically consistent.

The terms I use for people who cannot abide by controlled dialogue amongst mutually respecting, though disagreeable opponents, not themselves are : intolerant and totalitarian. I believe any review of a current lexicon of the English language will support my assertions.

Good day and fly safe

Todd :-wave

PS Passion regarding one's position is hardly a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength and a symbol of one's conviction. I would direct you to a "minor" philosopher of some note in the development of Western thought; his name was Kant and he had this thing called a "categorical imperative". You might want to review that as a supposed arbiter of moral standard.

To that end I have an infinitely greater respect for my principle Marius V who abides deeply and passionately in his convictions than I do for some fence sitting dispassionate moral relativist that asserts that there are no absolutes. Which is not to say that you are that type of person, that is merely and subjective observation of how I view that "type" of individual.

In fact it has been through dialogue with my itinerant South African Colleague that I have come to a better understanding of his position and even his culture as a greater whole and for that I am grateful because he has offered in his objections to my position a glimpse into his part of the world. A world we all dispassionately fly into when we use FS and yet probably have very little understanding of beyond the main runway headings at Capetown.

That glimpse has far more reality and objectivity than the virtual confines of FS and in such serves only to enhance my own and I am certain many other's FS experience. Marius is my friend and he is so because of his passion, if not his position.

PPS That last bit was blatantly subjective, just for clarification. ;-)

[helo_av8or]

I must agree with Todd. Most of us are very polite when engaging in political discussions on this forum. Furthermore, the threads are clearly labeled, so you can just not read them if it offends you. Very similarly, if you don't like what's on television, you can change the channel.

I personally welcome the new influx of political issues to this forum. I like hearing the ideas and thoughts of other people, and so long as we do it in a civilized manner, we can all have fun, and maybe just learn something.
________________________________________________________
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"Hippies really piss me off!"

[Simon Evans]

Aye, can't disagree with that Todd...

Of course, as one strives to achieve the Holy Grail of `realism` in flight simulation, politics becomes an increasingly important part of realising that aim - might we see written permission being required for overflights over certain nations in FS2006, such requests being submitted no less than six months prior to the intended flight?

I dare say BMW will have protocols built into the simulator to prevent recreations of biplanes from flying in US skies and Cessna will veto adjustable seats on liability grounds. VFR flight will only be permissible after the real weather download confirms the minima, and never after dark. Certain airline liveries will have in-built protection to prevent flights into certain airports beyond a set quota and the filing of a flightplan before logging on FS2006 will, of course, become mandatory.

One might also conjecture that downloading certain types of aircraft might require a qualifying `licence` on behalf of the software user and a minimum time-on-type before one would be allowed to venture into controlled virtual-airspace. None of this dangerous hopping from a 737 to a Caravan..! Good Lord, think of the risks..!!!?

Seriously though, politics has just as much a place in the virtual world as it does in the real - witness the release of FS2002 with the WTC removed to see how one impinges on the other. Why should this forum not reflect all aspects of simulation, even the politics?

Personally, if I don't like a thread, I don't read it. Perhaps our top poster might consider that as a viable option, precluding the necessity for acquiring the thesaurus in order to promote ones singular viewpoint.

Ain't that right, Todd...?


Simon Evans

[Patkorn]

Ok guys you're missing the point. I stated my sense of opinion here. You may disagree, thats totally fine with me. In fact I have been watching this forum quite closly for some time. Todd himself said that threads or themes other than flightsimming do not really belong here - till the depature of his own vow. Now he is discussing and propagating why people should carry guns and discussing his personal belief-system. He claims what a strong person he is by saying what he thinks. Wow, knocks me right off my chair - but whats the point! Then saying to Marius in the other thread that people who do not like it schould f*#k off is quite foul. That is real low by all respect. Also saying where a post should be posted and where not; who is he? I have the same right as he to do this. Taking your own words: If you or don't like it - you don't have to read this or reply to it. But he would never do that (maybe I'm real wrong on this one - let's see who has the last word). I don't want to fight, I just want people to think and think about what they are actually saying or doing. This is an international site, a great site propagating great creativity and fun for all simmers it should not be used to propagate an individuals thoughts on social-political issues. If this is so desired another forum should be generated for this. This has nothing to do with intolerance it is just a point of disagreement.

In this sense

[drobson]

I don't see a thing in the heading of this forum that states it is a "Flight Sim Forum". The mere title of it, "The Outer Marker" indicates to me that it is a forum for discussion of any topic. Granted, the outer marker reference is aviation related, but that does not indicate "Flight Sim Forum". This forum is designed to be similar to the "Hangar Forum" of fs.com, which is an open discussion gathering place.

If you wish to discuss just flight simming stuff, there are ample places to do just that.

Darrell


CLIC THE PIC
[link:www.flightsimmers.net/airport/dkrobson1|http://flightsimmers.net/airport/dkrobson1/frnt2.gif]

[dil52]

I too agree….
.
I think the attempt to ‘define’ freedom of speech is offensive and oppressive in itself.
The posts here are not only educational, but very well written. We could go down to
local pub filled with construction workers, after a hard days labor, and hear some of
the same philosophies spoken with many more four letter adjectives. That is not to
say their opinions are any less important. They just don't
preclude the necessity to acquire the thesaurus as Todd
has discribed so well. :-)
This is 'my' means of exposure to a more scholastic interpretation of opinion.
It’s like a real learning channel with point counter point ideas and ideals.
Definitely out of my league, but I try to understand.
I've yet to miss a post.
Yes, just shooting my mouth off again.:-lol
Fred
http://www.flight-sim.net

[Lou_Betti]

"Todd himself said that threads or themes other than flightsimming do not really belong here"

I hate to burst that bubble, but in reality, this is a "feedback" forum. Originally created for Peter James to hang out at. Now that he has departed Flightsim.com, the forum remains sort of in limbo, and perhaps that is just fine for now.

This forum is not really being misused in the context described in the originating post. However, it can also be said that some posts that appear here may not always be phrased in the best manner possible; that is for certain! However, Todd's posts do not come under that category.

As Flightsim.com slowly but surely switches over to this new DC Scripts forum system, this forum may very well (though not certainly) become something akin to the "hangar talk" forum, that currently resides on the old forum system, and at that forum anything goes, and I mean ANYTHING.

The mistake is often made that since a forum has an aviation-releated name stuck on it, that this means it is strictly for aviation-related talk; this is not always the case, especially here.

Now, would some of the threads here be allowed at the FS2002 forum, or the Screen Shot forum, not very likely!

For now, and until more forums join this new system, some forums will be wearing more "hats" than others. This forum is one example of that.

Let me also add that as a friend of mine, I personally encourage Todd to post here, and he is more than intelligent enough to know what will "fly" and what will not at a forum such as this. In addition, I would dare say that anytime that Todd would like a forum of his own at FlightSim.com, that Nel's would be happy to give him one, even this one!;-)

I, for one, would like to see an additional forum added, one that deals strictly with aviation "reality", as opposed to "simulation". This could be a place where folks who are not real pilots could come to learn more about real aviation, and you can be certain that a forum such as this would be kept strictly "on topic".

Regards,

Lou

[drobson]

Lou,
I stand corrected in my assumption that this is to be similar to the Hangar Talk forum.

On the other hand, I've not seen a whole lot of stuff that, IMO, should not have been here, although others see it differently.

Darrell


CLIC THE PIC
[link:www.flightsimmers.net/airport/dkrobson1|http://flightsimmers.net/airport/dkrobson1/frnt2.gif]

[Simon Evans]

OK, jocularity aside.

The nature of `debate` patkorn, is that it promotes the discussion of a disparate viewpoint. One need not reach a concensus, we may all agree to differ. Still the debate succeeds, by the simple fact of the airing of the views.

The nature of free speech is that one may choose to disagree with what is being said. Totally. But one may not impinge on the liberty of that person to say it. That way lies the grim spectre of censorship and totalitarianism.

It seems you seek to impose on forum visitors your idea of what this forum is about. I think the debate demonstrates quite clearly that some - possibly many - of us disagree with you.
If not here, where? If not now, when?

Perhaps this thread, more than most, illustrates most clearly this forum is what WE choose to make it. If no-one here wants to discuss something, then the thread dies a natural death.

Personally, I take offence at the misue of forums by the expression `bump` to place that thread at the top of the tree when clearly few wish to express a point of view or are in the slightest bit interested in what's said. But you don't find me posting threads proposing the banning of such posts.

There's room for us all.

I elected to reveal the Carenado thievery in this forum. By your standards one could easily argue that, as it referred to criminality and amorality rather than flight simming per se, it had no place here...


Simon Evans

[JonP01]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-01 AT 00:04AM (EDT)[p]Call me Neanderthal, but I enjoy what goes on in this forum. Maybe my thinking is really simple, but if a few real world pilots sat down to lunch together, it wouldn't surprise me if this is the stuff they might talk about, in addition to pure aviation issues. I rather like these sorts of discussions, particularly when I know I am talking to people who have a basic common interest (OK, obsession) with aviation. It is the glue that holds us all together through agreements and disagreements. I think so long as we keep the FS2002 forum, for example, 100% "pure", then having a place for topical issues is not a problem. There are other forums if you don't like this one. Lou has always had the power to delete or close a thread, so to a large extent I conclude the usage of this forum has been within acceptable usage boundaries. Some of the opinions expressed are somewhat relevatory, but that's what makes logging in here interesting.

[jclay13]

I enjoy the "spirited" discussions that take place here at the Outer Marker. I agree with Lou. This forum has evolved into what the Hangar Talk forum is and I think that is OK. If you want to talk simulation, go over to the FS2002, FS2000, or one of the many other forums that are dedicated to a particular subject. Why do you think every OP-ED has a link to the Outer Marker? It is so a discussion can take place and those discussions sometimes lead to other discussions. Plus it has a cool name..."The Outer Marker". Kinda like a bar that a bunch of pilots might hang out at and shoot the breeze.

[Lou_Betti]

Maybe we should re-name this forum the "Outer Limits"?!! ;-)

I'm happy to hear that some of you understand what I am getting at, and you can be certain if another forum is required, for other types of discussion, all it will take is a phone call from me to Nels, and a bit of convincing! Feel free to give feedback as to what you would like to see at FlightSim.com.

In the meantime, speak your mind, your opinion, just watch the manner in which you express it, okay? Some may not like it, but as long as it is your opinion, I doubt you will see any censorship here.

FlightSim.com is not the biggest (by far) FS web site for nothing, you know? Yes, sometimes bigger is better, and always much better than censorship.

Regards,

Lou

[Dee]

>>Maybe we should re-name this forum the "Outer Limits"?!! <<

ROFLMAO!
Maybe!

Dee Waldron (HJG)

[mariusv]

LOL! simon, when is that sim coming out? it sounds wonderful! i'd love to have a voice come over the speakers saying: "Sir, you're in a restricted area. Lower you landing gear if you comply, then fly straight north and don't make any sudden turns...."

FU2 promised that and i was greatly disappointed

m.

[mariusv]

Personally I experience flight simming as the closest thing to a community that I have, and the fact that we can speak about other things here is proof to me of how strong the community is. For most involved in aviation it's not so simple to keep it seperate from the rest of your life. I can't think of much else that can evoke so much passion.

On the other hand, some people have said that this is an American site, run by Americans, for discussion of an American product. (This was said by an Australian. Fair dinkum, mate.) So as such it could be a place for Americans to practice what they preach: tolerance, freedom of speech and regular consumption of alcoholic beverages. Now, it's a pity about the last one, but at least I know I can come on here and tell Americans how incomprehensibly arrogant they are, and still be given the time of day. Yes, it's right up there next to my name. Ain't that neat.

Seriously, it's a joy to read and a mindf@#$^ to participate, and if you can't scream at your friends, they're not your friends. Then they're just people out of earshot.

I have been cut down to size rather rudely by Todd, but coming from him I regard it as a compliment that he replies at all. Bloody forceful ain't he? Gotta love it.

Go figure

Nkosi sikelel' iAmerika (God bless...)

mmmmmmm.

[Patkorn]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-01 AT 04:14AM (EDT)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-01 AT 04:12 AM (EDT)

Ok - then that is ok for me. I now get a clearer picture and I understand. I did think "Hangar Talk" would be the place for these kind of themes, but I was wrong. Sorry for the inconvienence caused. At least now I know that everybody seems happy with this. That is really cool and then it should stay that way. And for you Todd - please ingnore my statements, they have no meaning anymore. Let's forget this.

Just reading Marius' post - great ! Speak the words right out of my mouth. Instead of saying we should not bash each others heads in this forum, I should of done just that: since this is tolerated and wanted, I will surely contribute and may say things that I pastly thought better to hold back, in order not to make anybody angry. But it seems that that will not be the case, great stuff this forum !

[dil52]

The outer limits:-lol :-lol :-lol That's good!
Fred

[Lou_Betti]

Hi Patrick,

You caused no inconvenience. In fact your original post is what this forum is all about, feedback! There's nothing wrong with expressing the opinion that you did. :-)

Regards,

Lou

[toddrf]

I have been amusing myself in Memphis for the last five days. I had to see one of my re-patriated UK cousins get married (yes, I have family all over the world, despite my nationalist rhetoric and my English uncle is my favorite at that, such a scholar and gentleman is he) AND I decided to decompress myself by going out to the airport and parking the car and watching the FedEx sort do its thing. WOW! MD-10s -11s A310s 727s! Memphis is a plane spotter's dream and Memphis Belle lives there to boot. My oldest son actually got to sit in the ball turret.

I never, EVER ignore a comment. Principally because 1. words will never hurt me and 2. as Socrates himself stated: The life not examined is not worth living.

I am bound to re-examine every point of view that I hold, because as a Kantian I believe that in order to be morally correct I have to be willing to say that my views should be universally adopted. That's weighty philosophy, but suffice it to say that I am not so bold as to think that I am always correct and the reason I am not is because I have had a lot of dialogue in my life with people who are opposed to my views that forced me to consider my positions and their relative strengths and weaknesses.

So I won't ignore your comments; neither will I retract mine. ;-)

Take care.

Todd :-wave