Reply to Anthrax at Microsoft

[toddrf]

Sure, Anthrax can be wacked with simple Penicillin, the problem is that you have to start therapy BEFORE you get symptomatic. Neat huh?

We are all about to get immunized against the critter, (by the way, to put in perspective my current perspective on all of this, I am wearing an Army Flight suit, prepping to do, a LOT of physical exams on soldiers and listening to Smashmouth's Astro-lounge which I recommend highly as the perfect CD to drive by AND to reduce depression. ;-)) and that immunization is the same one that everyone wanted to refuse 8 months ago and the DoD backed off on; well, I can tell you people are wanting it in droves now. I'll get it, but to be honest, I would be a lot more enthusiastic about the Typhoid vaccination.

Here's the deal, as sick as this might sound, I do spend a fair amount of time trying to think like a potential terrorist. I do that as part of anticipated threat analysis. I just do not see Anthrax being the best means to wack a lot of people. Gas masks will kill more people than save and that is why I am so friggin' POed at the news media and ultimately the civilian authorities. Trust me, they are pulling it all out of their arse right now.

A gas mask is a tool and you have to know how to use it. So what you don your mask after you have gotten a lung full of Nerve agent, hey, do you have some 2 PAM and Atropine to shoot into your thigh? Well guess what, you will be found dead but the mask will contain all of the fluids you puked up before you died.




THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH REALLY>>>


It is VERY important, ney critical, that citizens world wide approach their leaders and tell them to cut the BS and start formulating a civil defense program that is clear, simple and easy to implement. The President did the best job of anyone so far when he was badgered by those pricks in the media and he calmly responded that vigilance is reporting suspicious looking people climbing into crop dusters. It is not reporting members of DF when they are discussing the airconditioning system of the 737 at Tavern on The Green (Yeah, I know you are loaded Lou. ;-))

Remember, we have the human resources, these tangos have to make big statements every time they hit. The USA is not bordered by Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt, we can screen fairly well so we CAN control the ingress of suspects, just as OZ and England can, but I would shut that Chunnel thing down right quick and reserve it solely for freight. That is like mainlining bad actors into your blood stream. The next thing is get rid of that redicluous elimination of passports and start screening people as they move about Europe.

Big Statements. They need to make a big splash, remember they do suicide deals, one shot, game over. What about a few sleepers infected with Marburg or Congo Hemmorrhagic Fever? Have them show up at a hospital in a major city and start bleeding everywhere and infect a good number of docs and nurses, that would F--k things up pretty well. Remember, big splash. Better yet, just walk into the hospital, say during a large gathering of docs and blow themselves up or start hosing them down with submachine gun fire. That would have an impact.

Hand washing, a simple particulate mask and vigilance about your mail and who is around you are the best tools to remain safe. That and getting really close to your mail order companies. I am sorry but I am not going near any major shopping malls or large enclosed arenas for a long time. Too high a risk.

The last thing is that I always carry an egress "kit". That is force of habit after having been "stuck" once. I won't deal in specifics lest I incriminate myself, but I keep in that little goodie bag among other things, a bit of food, a compass (actually very useful in large cities), a good knife and Leatherman, some water and a change of underwear. When I travel to big cities I get a simple subway map or city map, usually free at the airport and I stuff it in the bag.

I briefly study the "land" and where I am going and where the major roads and transport terminals are. I then try and keep an idea of where I would head in the event of a bad deal. Usually that involves heading away from the path that most people will take in a panic. Bad form to survive the blast and then get trampled by the herd. Bad form also to head downwind when a strange cloud is knocking people over like flies. I mean it is simple stuff, but unfortunately stuff that nobody knows about unless they happen to have been taught it.

The last thing is that all of this crap that those goobers are spewing about the ground being on fire and jets falling from the sky, forget it. They are probably done with airplanes. They are terrorists not supermen. I guarantee if I punch one of them in the throat or slap his ears with my hands, he's going down and God help him if I get my arms around his neck because he'll be meeting his virgin soon. (Sorry, I am manifesting my testosterone right now, I just want to choke the living s--t out of couple of those little pricks)

So they have to resort to using fear as a force multiplier. They have to count on you being afraid that they posess some superhuman power to do bad things, well, those boys over Pennsylvania proved that they don't have superhuman powers. They are just people, period. They bleed just like your or I do and if I can stuff a knife into his/her chest before he pulls the pin, he's done.

Okay, so did the point get through? Vigilance, stay away from wacky places, don't buy a gas mask, and don't freak about Anthrax. Stay away from large public gatherings. Keep your eyes open and if you have a family, make a game out of an egress drill. Nothing scarier than having your little ones with you when the bad actor shows up. Play a game with your kids to train them to respond rapidly when you say "time to go".

Fear, uncertainty, disruption of the normal routine, disruption of commerce, reducing confidence in civil authority, creating fear over infrastructure useage, freak people out over the mails, capitalize on ignorance and fear, these are the tools of the tango. Shoot up a hospital, wack a train crossing the outback or the Central US Plains, suicide attacks on shopping malls. Make us cower in the corner thinking that they are everywhere and we are not safe to leave our homes. Great tools, as effective as nukes in destroying nations.

Just give me an MP-5 and a clear view... ...that's all I want, a clear sight picture... ...we still have payback for the Rangers in Mogadishu to execute then we can go with the K Towers in Saudi and then the Cole and then the WTC...

Todd :-wave

PS keep asking questions, information is your most powerful ally and the vanquisher of fear

[JarJarBlinks]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-01 AT 09:28AM (EDT)[p]Todd,

You dont have to awnser this, but:

What do you think will be the next attack method?
--------------------
Steve

"Ladies and Gentelmen, we just discovered an exception to the rule that what goes up must come down, the landing gear"

[dil52]

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"--Winston Churhill

This was a man who had a great ability to assess the situation and say things that man has quoted time and time again. He was a great leader in a time for a reason to panic. Londoner's went about their daily business with an uncanny sense of calmness.
We should too.
Some may argue, but I've seen this ability in our President. He has demonstrated it with every word that has come out of his mouth. I believe that great leadership comes at times when it's most needed. Here's a leader who wasn't very impressive until he had to step up to the plate. He hasn't taken any surveys to see what people WANT to hear, he just adlibs. The signs are obvious, just listen.

I have to mildly disagree with you about one thing Todd.
If everyone stayed away from crowds there wouldn't be crowds, would there?
Then the terrorists will have accomplished just what they set out to do.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every
form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson

Unfortunately the media has a power they seem to abuse.
They want to exercize freedom of speech when
it's convinent for them and lean heavily toward it
relieving them of responsibily. I've seen them express their
own fears and try to put words in peoples mouths they interview.
That's irresponsible.
:-)
Fred

[greggerm]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-01 AT 03:13PM (EDT)[p]>"The only thing we have to
>fear is fear itself"--Winston Churhill

Actually, Franklin Roosevelt spoke those words during his first inagural address. The full text is as follows...

"So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance."

He was actually referring to the country's fight with the Great Depression.

>Some may argue, but I've seen
>this ability in our President.

And presidents of our past.
-Greg

[Freaky7878]

>Actually, Franklin Roosevelt spoke those words
>during his first inagural address.
>The full text is as
>follows...
>
>"So, first of all, let me
>assert my firm belief that
>the only thing we have
>to fear is fear itself
>-- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror
>which paralyzes needed efforts to
>convert retreat into advance."
>-Greg


ACtually it was churchill

[toddrf]

Hi Steve:

I am not going to start some macabre speculation about what when and where. I think that might be a bit too much for the more sensitive folks here and my intent is not to sensationalize it is to educate.

I have been pretty clear: Think of a large public gathering that isn't drawing the attention of a lot of security. Super Bowl? Forget it, too much scrutiny. They want what we want, fast in and fast out, little friction, little heat and little observation. There are countless examples of places where a lot of damage could be done.

Case in point, I am writing this not 1/4 mile from two globes containing TriFluoroethelene and LPG. Guess what, Mr. Security genius at that plant still hasn't had the large fully grown cornfield cut down next door. That would be my choice for ingress, easy to get in and out. People are still in grammar school on this deal and that is what worries me they need some clear ideas.

Fred has an interesting point below, but I guess what got lost is my advice that if you are in a large group situation, you stay toward the periphery and stay alert. Look for suspcious activity; are those people over there watching the concert or are they watching everything else? If they are watching everything else, they are either legitimate security or they are tango security looking for potential obstructions to their plan.

Start learning what you can about Islam and the dates and history behind the Intefada, and the Arab world in general, and then become hyper-vigilant on those dates. Start shopping your local downtown stores and not the malls.

The best security precaution in the world is dispersal of forces. WE do that all the time, you never lager all of your tanks or trucks in the same place. You disperse them into fighting positions in tactical situations. We should approach the sustainment of our critical infrastructure and commerce in the same fashion.

For city dwellers it is time for a rebirth of the local community. Get to know your neighbors very well and start forming neighborhood watches. People who are not from your neighborhood ought not to be in your neighborhood for no reason. You know if you live at Cabrini Green you don't see a lot of white folks just hanging out, that is suspicious. If you know your neighbors well and none of them are from Riyahd, well what is that guy who looks Arabic doing down there hanging out?

That is NOT the time to call the cops, it is the time to observe and wait, I'd even go down and talk to him, "Hey, you look lost can I help you out, blah blah blah.". If they go about normal business, no problem, if they continue to stand around, then proceed as if nothing is wrong, call the cops and say, "Hey, this is weird, but this dude downstairs looks kind of suspicious.".

Simple stuff.

We just had an Anthrax scare the other day from a couple of people who picked up Weekend papers and found a bunch of white powder in them. Copy cats. Cheap thrill seekers, ho ho ho ha ha ha. I have a special term for them.

Clear enough Steve?

Todd :-wave

[toddrf]

The concept remains clear, nevertheless, and regardless of author.

Todd :-wave

[pipeline109]

WHOA HOLD ON! Anthrax... major US scare deadliest epidemic in US history with... 5 casualties in 4 states in ten years! WOOPEE! I'm sure more people get cancer, thyroid fever, colon cancer, (insert disease/deadly situation here). So why don't we get so exited about this? Why don't past headlines say 'x breast cancer fatalities' or 'x people got hit by lightning'?
Gallina Obscura
Humanity's (barely) legal alien

[greggerm]

I do hate to be nitpicky, but...

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/real/28fear.rm
(Audio recording from the Roosevelt library)

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres49.html
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/inaugadr.html
(Speech transcripts)

http://www.xrefer.com/entry/169788

It was Roosevelt. Churchill was a great orator, and certainly has a fantastic collection of great quotes, but this one is Roosevelt.

AND, as Todd mentioned, it is the spirit of the statement which counts.

US history lesson concludes,
-Greg

[rabhaw]

Many good points concerning civil defence. I doubt that government would advocate avoiding malls, etc simply due to the pressure they would be under from powerfull retail intrests. The economic changes that are possible would be interesting. For example as you state, reviving the downtown areas. But that would mean people getting out of the car and actually walking from store to store :). Also perhaps e-commerce would get a boost after the last difficult year.I don't mean that the amount of cash in the economy would be reduced but rather redistibuted as people exercise their choices. That's the real essence of the economy anyway. Individual choices x 280 million.

Robert

[JonP01]

Everyone here has contributed important and valid comments. It is interesting that in Oz, we have "resurrected" our Olympics security program and our Premier (state leader), Bob Carr will be making an announcement this week regarding the measures that have been put in place. We actually had one of those "copy cat dud" anthrax scares at Sydney airport this morning. I'm still amazed that mentally deficient and deranged goons choose to perpetrate these hoaxes and subsequently divert the attention of import and neccessary resources.

I think Robert made a good point regarding the economic effect these problems have. I am doing what Todd is doing. I'm only going into the Sydney CBD when there is essential business to do there. It is not so much through outright raw fear so much as "why go there now and take any uneccessary risk at all when I can do the same thing in the suburbs?". I don't spend a cent there now. So maybe I should change slightly what I said before. I guess I'm not scared of germ warfare per se as much I am concerned about the effects of the FEAR of germ warfare. The threat could be even more devastating than the act, after all, I have changed my habits on account of simply being more vigilant.

[mariusv]

when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

america is such a great nation for bombing people who can't even afford a big mac. ever. you do realise you've once again got involved in a regional conflict that has nothing to do with you.
even if you think you're fighting against terrorism, you're in reality only helping one faction to fight another faction, in a little war torn country with no infrastructure or money, half way around the world. good for the ratings, good for the economy, good for domestic politics. we apologise for the inadvertent loss of civilian life. thank allah they're only arabs.

killing every last member of al-queda and the taliban isn't going to stop anything remotely related to anti-american terrorism. your self-defence rhetoric is one thing, but condoning the truly absurd and senseless full scale attacks of your mighty government upon the poorest country in the world is quite another. make no mistake, folks: the people dying in afghanistan never did ANYTHING against the US. the real terrorists are spread out in little pieces under a thousand tons of rubble in New York. I'm beginning to feel a definite rage towards the US!


m.

[joea]

Another great thread starts...ummm these aren't full scale attacks not like in Serbia or Iraq.
Joe Apostolidis
Supporter of FS, quality add-ons, and real aviation
FMCs are GOOD-for those who can fly without them

[pdecker]

>america is such a great nation
>for bombing people who can't
>even afford a big mac.

Ehhh, :-roll and so the threads start all over again.

I'm shouldn't really even justify this with an answer, because we've all been around and around the issue.

All I have to say to anyone who thinks we're targeting civilians, (who are cruelly and violently opressed- especially the 50% without the right anatomy), and not the ruling opressive regieme is that you're misinformed. Turn on an hour of CNN and get the story. Bring down the regieme, let someone else take over who doesn't support terrorism, then the US is happy, and the Afghanistanis are happy.

The Afghanistanis who've come to this country come with horrible graphic stories of people being butchered by the taliban publicly, (faces being cut off, throats sliced, etc.). Some come with smuggled video tapes that the news agencies can't show. I have an Afghan friend who has one such tape, and I'll tell you that after seeing it you never want to eat meat again.

Plus, I seem to remember the US being forced into this, don't you?


Anyway...

[toddrf]

Since you have such absolute confidence in the information being disseminated out of Afghanistan and since you obviously have a more complete understadning of targeting, spot intel from the scene and insuring that 0% collateral damage occurs, perhaps you should call up DoD and offer to serve as a temporary consultant. I suppose you would stop the food drops and the civil assistance missions that SOF conducts since those are obviously directed at harming the civilian populace of Afghanistan.

Grow up, pal, this is what war is all about and we didn't start it. I might also mention that you have absolutely 0 cartel on disliking the practice. Those of us who have done the deal hate it more than anyone out there. When you've seen it up close and personal you have a vested interest in doing it right and doing it quick and precisely.

Probably best to go into learning mode right now and get an education about the process instead of carping off about how bad we (the US) are in our prosecution of this particular exercise.

Cheers,

Todd :-wave

[pipeline109]

Ever heard of osama bin laden?
If we thought every Arab was responsible, believe me, we'd flatten Afghanistan and every Arab nation. But no, were sending men into the caves where the rear admirals who ASSISTED in BLOWING UP OUR GREATEST STRUCTURE live and targeting them. We're Aiming for AS LITTLE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AS POSSIBLE knowing that al-qaeda and the taliban are using civilians as a shield. The American people have spoken.
Gallina Obscura
Humanity's (barely) legal alien

[mariusv]

condescending bunch of zealots.

you've got a list of all the things they've done to america, and you feel righteously justified in bombing them. i say: fair enough.

they've got a list of things america has done to them. they feel righteously justified in killing americans. i say fair enough.

have a good fight.

simple: a small bunch of religious fanatics planned and executed an attack. go get them.

now you're destroying a small country's infrastructure, just like you destroyed Iraq's. and they just get MORE righteous. i'm not saying they're RIGHT. they're just as right as you are. you loose the luxury of sympathy when you start killing back.

you are watching american media. did you know the amount of foreign reporting in your newspapers stand at 13% of the total content? you know what the major content of your newspapers is? 40% gets devoted to "celebrity gossip"

did you know your newspapers are censoring themselves, and NOT bringing you certain stories about this war, at the request of your government?

where's the american ideals of truth, justice and equality? is truth slightly less important sometimes?

do you get to see the pictures of sick babies in iraq, and wounded afghans? i'm really curious: do you? i watch CNN too, and i don't see those pictures on CNN. I DO see them in our newspapers.

you're bombing useless targets without any purpose other to TERRORISE the local people into revolting against the taliban. you can feel as righteous as you want, but it's still terrorism.

there's nothing left there to bomb. just houses. and i'm not saying the taliban is right either. that's part of the point: they ARE a repressive, cruel group. but so is this northern alliance that america is backing, and so is the "government" of pakistan.

perhaps all the above might be open to debate. gray areas. but one thing is certain: you're killing innocent people. people who have nothing... had nothing to start with... you're having this mentality of: it's unfortunate that people get killed, but...

that's religious fanatical talk. that's how terrorists sound.

and don't attack my credentials: you know nothing about me.

m.

[toddrf]

Attack your credentials? The obvious man on the ground in Afghanistan? I don't know you, but I can usually get a pretty good feel for a person detaching themselves from reality at a good clip. I usually sedate them, package them in straps and politely transport them to a "happy place".

Since you obviously have little concept of how wars are prosecuted and what they involve I guess I can make a general assertion of your "credentials". That and the fact that we have poured billions into weapons systems designed specifically to minimize collateral damage and hit targets precisely. Life being what it is, occassionally a system will fail and a weapon will go wide. We do have those AC-130s and I don't think that they are hosing the countryside down indiscriminately, though they are quite capable of doing that. I think the DoS has been very clear that the Northern Alliance is a means to an end and not the desired ultimate next government of Afghanistan. Then there remains that issue of our concurrent delivery of food and other human aid essentials, but of course you "know" of all that and have dismissed it out of hand.

To that end, you know nothing of my credentials either, but I think I can rest comfortably knowing that I have some expertise in a few areas you do not.

I wish you well in your "happy place".

Todd :-wave

PS: That's all I got to say about that.
-Forrest Gump

A man you can probably relate too

[mariusv]

todd, i haven't dismissed anything out of hand. i have had some experiences too, and mine have led me to believe the opposite of what you believe. funny world where that sort of thing can happen. there are some concern about the form of the US humanitarian offerings, although i must admit it is better than nothing. i do also appreciate that they are certainly doing their best to avoid civilian casualties. i respect that. but regardless of the amount of care you take, there is always a better chance of civilian deaths in the event of an attack than there is when there is NOT an attack. even if one child just got slightly injured through these attacks, they are simply wrong. not-negotiable. 5500 does not equal 1, or 2 or 75 000 etc.

i hope the military action will not last much longer. i hope the people of the US will continue to pressure their government to get this over as quickly as possible. i fail to understand how this action contributes to the safety and security of continental north america. do you feel safer now than before the attacks started? there is no justification for taking human life, ever. self-defence is one thing, but taking your aggression beyond your own borders to another country is another. war is ugly and it is wrong.

why can't the marines go into afghanistan and get the people responsible and go back home? why the showmanship? doesn't that make you suspicious?

the food-drops are described as a "hearts and minds" war, to win over the afghan people. propaganda, in other words. but in reality you are feeding the men with the guns, the taliban, the strong. those food drops create confusion and benefits the wrong people. but it looks great in the media. what is needed is sustained and organised ground-level distribution by established humanitarian aid organisations already in afghanistan. i can't believe a people like yours, who believe so vociferously in the power of free speech, individuality and personal liberty, (hehe) don't get very uncomfortable with the propagandistic nature of your government's actions.

look at those little yellow packages, emblazoned with the symbol of western freedom and the message: "a gift from the people of the united states of america" in english... and then the next plane bearing bombs come by... how would you feel, todd? imagine, there you are, holed up in the mountains of oregon, with your battered M16, and the ground gets littered with little yellow packages with a crescent on it, saying: "a gift from allah brought to you by the people of the emirates of afghanistan (halaal)"

and then they just quickly take out the space needle to prove their friendship.

can't you see? war is always the same: civilians get hurt, fanatics get created, people die. and why this focus on civilians. soldiers are people too.

From Ha'aretz (Israeli newspaper):
One leaflet shows a Western soldier in camouflage and helmet shaking hands with a man in traditional Afghan dress in front of a mountain scene. "The partnership of nations is here to assist the people of Afghanistan," the leaflet said.

LOL!

Look, everyone taking part in this discussion: we can agree to disagree, if you'd like. It really doesn't sit well with me to engage in personal discussions. I'm against any form of war and aggression, and you can have a different view. Who I am and how I came to this opinion shouldn't matter, nor am I prepared to reveal my experiences in order to gain status points. I find war absurd, and I'm willing to discuss that. This is not American domestic policy anymore.

respectfully yours,
marius

[mariusv]

>-Forrest Gump
>
>A man you can probably relate
>too

if i were dead i would've turned over in my grave. that movie makes my stomach turn. worse than "dude, where's my car" and "little nicky" rolled into one.

[PeteStepanoff]

>i hope the military action will
>not last much longer. i
>hope the people of the
>US will continue to pressure
>their government to get this
>over as quickly as possible.

I guess this shows that your information is really lacking. The people in this country are 90%+ behind our Presidents decision to continue this action for as long as necessary, but of course you probably have better information, like you seem to have on everything else.

>..do you feel
>safer now than before the
>attacks started?

I feel alot safer now than I did on Sept 11! And will feel even safer when I know that we have destroyed the ifrastructure that supports the scum! I will also feel alot safer if most of the leaders of these terrors organizations are all DEAD!

>why can't the marines go into
>afghanistan and get the people
>responsible and go back home?
>why the showmanship? doesn't that
>make you suspicious?

You are obviously a great military strategist! But we feel that when we send the Marines in, we should give them a better chance at survival. You peaceniks don't mind sacrificing lifes, as long as they are not yours! The purpose of war is to kill and brake things and that's a fact.
The peaceniks, no matter how well intended, have never yet succeded in their quest for love and piece, but wars have, at least, brought us peace, even if it's not permanent.

>how I came to this
>opinion shouldn't matter, nor am
>I prepared to reveal my
>experiences in order to gain
>status points.

R-i-i-i-i-i-ght. I am glad at least you got that clarified, now we can take you a little more seriously.:-roll


http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3bc6fccb6d3682a2.jpg

[toddrf]

Look, you obviously have no idea what world history is about. Sorry, but the truth is that your lifestyle, if you live in the West is the direct result of armed conflict. If you deny that then you are blatantly ignorant of world history, human behavior, geopolitic and a myriad of other items that would make it impossible for me to even discuss this with you. Certain premises, like "reality" must be agreed upon before dialogue can be engaged.

Like I said before, obviously you must be occupying some part of Afghanistan to have such certainty of BDA, colateral damage, etc, so far be it from me to dispute your "comprehensive" knowledge.

As a soldier, as an American, as a person who has seen a lot of various kinds of suffering around the world, I simply pity your woefully ignorant and obviously well-cared for world view. In the end it will bite you because regardless of what you might believe in your comfort zone, there are plenty of people who could give a rat's toot about your pacifism and would be more than willing to double tap your sorry toot in order to take what you have, just for the sake of doing it.

Like I said before, nothing I can say will change your mind. Too bad, I have learned my lessons from "ground zero".

Take care and good luck.

Todd :-wave

[JonP01]

Marius,

I'm starting to wonder what your purpose is around here. If you have this grave distaste of all things US, why do you persist to post messages on a US run website devoted to leisure software developed by the US?

[mariusv]

jonp01

i don't honestly have a distaste in all things american. i have a distaste in war, and yes, i do have some criticism of US policies. i understand blood is thicker than water, and since my country/government/culture have been the brunt of some criticism in the past as well, i understand you might be offended by some of my remarks. please don't misunderstand that i'm wholly against america. you have some amazing people. i read todd's newest joy of flying thread yesterday, and once again it just impressed me with the humanity of it. americans have very much to offer, and i support many thing traditionally seen as "American": freedom, human rights, tolerance, equality... i have said before, i'd accept a green card any day, and i would love to have a decent argument with todd face to face with a few beers at hand watching the sun set over them oregon pines -- IN oregon :)

but because i am "western" too, and because, i suppose, we've had so much exposure to "american culture" i think all of us feel somehow personally involved in any conflict/issue that pits the "West" against something else. i am concerned about people dying, and i'm concerned about americans being misled into becoming like the religious fanatics... becoming, in other words, just as petty and cruel as so many misinformed people across the world. hope you understand?

i do feel a majority of americans (and europeans actually) live in a form of luxuriant bliss relative to many other people. this presents a dichotomy since that state of bliss would be one all should (and do) strive for, but attaining it presents its own set of limitations, especially attaining it almost exclusively.

but, blood is thicker than water, i understand.

m.

[JonP01]

Well I certainly appreciate where you are coming from. Only yesterday I heard an hour length interview with a lecturer in Peace and Conflict Resolution studies from Sydney (I never knew there was such a thing). He advocated "dialog" as the ultimate resolution to conflict and whilst many would take issue with his opinions it was a captivating hour. I think it is one of the greatest ironies that those who wage war, however, are often those who yearn for peace. I don't have the wisdom of Solomon but I don't question at all what the US is doing. I feel deeply for the Afghan refugees as I can just imagine (well no I can't) what it would be like if what goes no there went on where I live. I think the best common ground we can all sit on is that regardless of what is said in the heat of the moment, in the end we all want peace.

[mariusv]

i draw different conclusions than you do.

this does not make me particularly ignorant. it also doesn't disqualify me from discussion -- or it shouldn't.

you don't have sole ownership of experience with "all kinds of suffering". it would've been nice if we could've stuck to the issues under discussion. i've enjoyed our past discussions. since you seem to have written off my whole character on the grounds that i don't agree with you, it feels a bit futile. i know you're mature enough to have the ability to see this. but the circumstances don't favour me right now. had we been speaking face to face i'm sure things would have been different. it's a pity this type of communication mostly fails.

i shared my opinions in good faith.

since we started this, on the other thread, i have in fact moderated some of my views in your favour. i'm always the first to admit i don't have all the facts, or all the experiences. i also readily admit when i am wrong. this seems always to be a mistake in communicating with certain people, who see any moderation as weakness, and equate anti-war with anti-american, and anti-aggression with pacifism.

unfortunately i've come to expect outright dismissal of this statement as well. please prove me wrong. yes, this sounds like i'm desperate for respect... perhaps i am. i expected some, i guess.

i will and have defended myself with force when neccessary. we had a war in angola, you might have heard about it. we had military conscription. all white south african males had to go to war against in a godforsaken little country far away against "communists" and "terrorists". today those terrorsist run the country, and i voted for them. we also believed we were protecting our homes, way of live, etc. been there, done that, didn't like it. can hear the same rhetoric now. my son will never own a toy gun while he's in my house, and i will never send him into the line of fire, to die because someone's pride was hurt. i will however teach him how to defend himself, and to do it honourably. if you don't have the moral righteousness to walk over to a man and stab him in the eye, then you don't have the right to send a bomb to do it to him while he's sleeping.

a point i'm not stating clearly is this: anyone involved with the WTC attacks, even someone who just knew it was going to happen, gave up their right to exist, in my opinion. i will have NO reservations about killing them myself. personally. in our war you couldn't see them half the time, and when you did they looked less real than the posters at target practice. it's nothing shooting a man. it means nothing. it has no feeling. it's the worst kind of evil there could be, because it's not that bad.

m.

[mariusv]

yes. we have different ways of getting there, and there are so many ways rhetoric can get out of hand. it's a strange feature of humans that we've made war for peace so many times. if there's anything noble in us, it's in that somewhere... that people are willing to give up their comfort sometimes to put themselves in danger for an idea. but is it a feature or a bug?

talking about bugs, we had our first anthrax scare this morning too. someone from a centre for security studies in cape town got a parcel with "a powdery white substance"... of course anthrax, one very versatile bacterium, doesn't need any white powder to survive. so this whole powder thing is a very effective publicity tool. copy-cat supporters all over the world can simply send out letters containing baby powder and get everyone excited.

many people with no interest in a safe and comfortable environment for human beings to live in.

m.

[toddrf]

i draw different conclusions than you do.
this does not make me particularly ignorant. it also doesn't disqualify me from discussion -- or it shouldn't.

you don't have sole ownership of experience with "all kinds of suffering".

NO I CERTAINLY DO NOT BUT I DO HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE TO KNOW THAT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO PICK UP A WEAPON AND START WORKING IT TO KEEP YOUR FAMILY AND WAY OF LIFE SAFE FROM A BUNCH OF DESPOTS. SOMETIMES THAT HAS TO OCCUR A LONG WAY AWAY FROM HOME. WOULD YOU HAVE PREFERED THAT THE US DIDN'T GO TO THE PHILIPINES AND EUROPE? AS HAS BEEN SAID, WE THE USA, WERE UNDER NO DIRECT THREAT FROM THE HUN OR JAPANESE.

it would've been nice if we could've stuck to the issues under discussion. i've enjoyed our past discussions. since you seem to have written off my whole character on the grounds that i don't agree with you, it feels a bit futile. i know you're mature enough to have the ability to see this. but the circumstances don't favour me right now. had we been speaking face to face i'm sure things would have been different. it's a pity this type of communication mostly fails.

i shared my opinions in good faith.

SO DID I BUT BLANKET STATEMENTS ABOUT ALL WAR BEING WRONG, OUR CURRENT TACTICAL POSITIONS IN AFGHANISTAN, ETC DEFY BOTH REASON AND REALITY.

since we started this, on the other thread, i have in fact moderated some of my views in your favour. i'm always the first to admit i don't have all the facts, or all the experiences. i also readily admit when i am wrong. this seems always to be a mistake in communicating with certain people, who see any moderation as weakness, and equate anti-war with anti-american, and anti-aggression with pacifism.

EVER HERE OF LORD CHAMBERLAIN AND CZECHOSLOVAKIA? MODERATION WILL GET YOU NO WHERE WHEN SOMEONE WANTS YOUR CHEESE AND IS WILLING TO KILL YOU FOR IT REGARDLESS OF YOUR PRISTINE INTENTIONS. OH, BOSNIA, ISRAEL, TIBET, JAPANESE OCCUPIED KOREA, POLAND, SOUTH KOREA, SOUTH VIETNAM, CYPRUS, DO YOU WANT ME TO NAME SAY ANOTHER 100 OR SO NATIONS THAT HAVE HAD THEIR CHEESE TAKEN AND THEIR SOCIAL FABIRC SHREDDED BECAUSE OF A LACK OF PREPARTION AND WILLINGNESS TO WASTE BAD PEOPLE?

BY THE WAY AMERICANS, HISTORICALLY HATE WAR, WE HAVE BEEN ALL TOO WILLING TO DISARM, TO OUR FOLLY AFTER EVER CONFLICT WE HAVE FOUGHT. WHAT WE DO LIKE IS KICKING-A-- SURGICALLY AND WATCHING BAD GUYS DIE.

unfortunately i've come to expect outright dismissal of this statement as well. please prove me wrong. yes, this sounds like i'm desperate for respect... perhaps i am. i expected some, i guess.

i will and have defended myself with force when neccessary. we had a war in angola, you might have heard about it.

I AM, "VAGUELY" FAMILIAR WITH ANGOLA AND SWAPO AND CUBANS IN AFRICA.

we had military conscription. all white south african males had to go to war against in a godforsaken little country far away against "communists" and "terrorists". today those terrorsist run the country, and i voted for them. we also believed we were protecting our homes, way of live, etc. been there, done that, didn't like it. can hear the same rhetoric now. my son will never own a toy gun while he's in my house, and i will never send him into the line of fire, to die because someone's pride was hurt. i will however teach him how to defend himself, and to do it honourably. if you don't have the moral righteousness to walk over to a man and stab him in the eye, then you don't have the right to send a bomb to do it to him while he's sleeping.

A COUPLE OF POINTS; MY SON OWNS A LOT OF TOY GUNS AND HE IS EVER THE PEACEABLE KID TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK. UNILATERAL DISARMAMENT DOESN'T CREATE PEACEABLE PEOPLE, IT CREATES PEOPLE WHO CARP A LOT ABOUT PEACE BUT WHEN THE CHIPS FALL ARE THE FIRST TO START SCREAMING FOR SOLDIERS TO GO OFF TO DIE, WOODROW WILSON COMES TO MIND, CALLED FOR WAR DESPITE CAMPAIGNING AGAINST IT AND THEN SENT A LOT OF YOUNG MEN WHO WERE POORLY PREPARED OFF TO DIE. HARRY TRUMAN IS ANOTHER, AN ARTILLERY OFFICER IN WW I HE SENT A LOT OF YOUNG KIDS TO KOREA WITHOUT GOOD EQUIPMENT AND A LOT OF YOUNG KIDS DIED AS A RESULT. WOULD AN INFANTRY OFFICER WHO FOUGHT IN FLANDERS' FIELD HAVE DONE THE SAME?

MY STATEMENT REMAINS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUGHT IN WARS HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE, PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T TREAT THE AFFAIR LIKE A FOOTBALL GAME; WHICH IT IS DECIDEDLY NOT. ASK THE SWISS ABOUT THE NATURE OF UNIVERSAL ARMING AND PEACE POSTURES.

I FOR ONE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DROP BOMBS UNDER YOUR CRITERION BY THE WAY AS LONG AS EYE BALLS ARE NOT THE ONLY VIABLE TARGET. LET'S LEAVE THAT AT THAT. BUT HAVING SAID THAT I WANT TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOU UNDERSTAND A SALIENT POINT, WAR HAS A FEW RULES, WHICH CURIOUSLY ONLY THE WEST SEEMS TO ABIDE BY AND AT THAT ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLES FOR THE MOST PART; YOU DON'T KILL KIDS AND CIVILIANS, YOU DON'T ROB THE NON-COMBATANTS, YOU TRY TO EASE THE SUFFERING OF THOSE AROUND YOU AS YOU WASTE THEIR ARMY SO FAR AS IT DOESN'T COMPROMISE YOUR SECURITY.

NOW AS SOMEONE WHO PARTICIPATES IN THIS SORT OF BUSINESS, AT LEAST TANGENTIALLY, I HAVE 0 RESERVATION ABOUT NOT HAVING TO ENGAGE IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT. EVER READ ABOUT THE BATTLE OF HASTINGS? PEOPLE HACKED EACH OTHER TO BITS AND IT WENT ON AND ON AND ON AND ON, 1000S OF DEAD AND MAIMED PEOPLE. ROMANTIC NOTIONS OF HOW TO FIGHT PROPER WARS ARE OFTEN ARTICULATED BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. I HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVER AGAIN HAVE TO GET CLOSE TO AN ADVERSARY. I WANT TO HAVE A BRILLIANT AND HUGE SHOW OF FORCE; IF THAT DOESN'T CONVINCE THEM TO QUIT, THEN PRECISION TARGETING TO MINIMIZE THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE AND INCREASE THE CHANCES THAT MY KIDS' FATHER WILL COME HOME ARE MY CHOICES.

MARIUS YOU ARE IN NEED OF SERIOUS HELP IF YOU ARE GOING TO TELL YOUR KID THAT KNIFE FIGHTING IS THE "HONORABLE" WAY TO GO TO WAR. I MAKE THE ASSUMPTION THAT IF MY KID EVER, HEAVEN FORBID, HAS TO GO TO WAR, THAT HE WILL DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO AVOID KILLING AND THEN IF THAT FAILS, HE WILL DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO WRECK THE OTHER GUY'S STUFF WHILE ABSOLUTELY MINIMIZING HIS RISK.

PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET THAT THE RUSSIANS HAD NO TROUBLE ROLLING INTO HUNGARY BUT THEY NEVER TOOK US ON HEAD TO HEAD. WHY? BECAUSE WE WERE NOT GOING TO STAND THEIR WITH SOME EDGE NICKED BROAD SWORD AND CLANKING ARMOR SHOUTING OUR SUPERIOR VIRTUE WHILE THEY DROPPED CHEMICAL ROCKETS INTO LANDSTUHL. NOPE TO FIGHT US THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH LAYERS OF CAV, ARMOR, SUBMARINES, HEAVY BOMBERS, PERSHING MISSILES, MINUTEMEN YOU NAME IT. IN OTHER WORDS IT WASN'T GOING TO BE EASY.

a point i'm not stating clearly is this: anyone involved with the WTC attacks, even someone who just knew it was going to happen, gave up their right to exist, in my opinion. i will have NO reservations about killing them myself. personally. in our war you couldn't see them half the time, and when you did they looked less real than the posters at target practice. it's nothing shooting a man. it means nothing. it has no feeling. it's the worst kind of evil there could be, because it's not that bad.

WELL I THINK IT IS VERY BAD. UNDER THE STRESS OF A FIRE FIGHT IT IS TRUE THAT YOU REALLY STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND DO IT, BUT IF YOU HAVE NO REGRETS AFTERWARDS THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. I SUFFERED FROM PTSD FOR A LONG TIME AFTER ONE SITUATION I WAS IN. DO I REGRET WHAT HAPPENED, NOPE, IT WAS THEM OR US. DO I WISH IT HADN'T HAPPENED? WITHOUT ANY QUESTION BECAUSE IT WAS HORRIBLE.

NOW MARIUS, AS I HAVE SAID, I AM SURE DoD AND DoS WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU ON THEIR TARGETING TEAMS. IF YOU HAVE SOME FORMULA BY WHICH TO PRECISELY LOCATE THE PRINICPALS OF THE ORGANIZATION AND GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE FOUND THEMSELVES IN OUR CROSSHAIRS, WELL THEN THAT IS SUPER, BUT SINCE I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE THAT TECHNOLOGY, THE CURRENT PRACTICE OF MINIMIZING FRIENDLY LIVES LOST BY DISMANTLING THEIR AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM, PRECISION TARGETING OF MILITARY AND PRINCIPAL COMMAND AND CONTROL LOCATIONS AND ULTIMATELY INSERTING COVERT DIRECT ACTION TEAMS IN TO TAKE DOWN SPECIFIC TARGETS IS AS REFINED AS THE ART GETS AT THE PRESENT TIME.

I'LL DISCUSS THIS FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT BUT I THINK THAT IT WOULD PROBABLY TAKE A DIRECT ATTACK ON SA TO GET YOU TO SEE THE LIGHT ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE TO GO ABOUT SUCH THINGS.

AND BY THE WAY, I DO RESPECT YOUR OPINION, I AM JUST A LITTLE WEARY OF TALKING IN THE FACE OF A SITUATION THAT NEEDS ACTION. UNFORTUNATELY I THINK I WILL BE SOON LEAVING TO DO SOME ACTING... ...I WOULD MUCH PREFER SITTING AT THE COMPUTER RUMINATING ABOUT ALL OF THIS, I GUESS I'LL THINK FONDLY OF YOU WHEN I AM STUCK IN SOME THIRD WORLD ARMPIT FIGHTING CHOLERA AND ADDRESSING THE AMPUTEES WHO LOSE LIMBS TRYING TO FIND FOOD SCRAPS IN MINEFIELDS SOWN ON THEM BY THEIR "OWN" GOVERNMENT.

Todd :-wave

[toddrf]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-01 AT 07:57AM (EDT)[p]My plan for Marius' US tour

If you do come over here, I am going to get your rip-snorting drunk and then take you to a bar I know of and shout "This South African twit thinks MARINES are pussies!", then I am going to run like a madman... ;-)

Marius, any time you decide to come over here and you decide to visit me I will do my level best to make certain the trip is enjoyable, peaceable and friendly.

Todd :-wave

[mariusv]

hi,

i'll react some more later, just this quickly: never meant at all that knife-fighting is honourable. THAT is not the particular "honourable" method of self defence i had in mind. my method doesn't in fact involve violence. the knife bit was a metaphor.

for the rest: i hear you.

i disagree of course, but i hear you. we won't be changing our minds soon, so here's lookin' at you...

i hope you get an opportunity to get involved soon.

m.

[mariusv]

hehe

i wouldn't mind a good fight some days. can't i get wasted (er drunk)... afterwards?

hey, if you sponsor the trip i'll gladly get myself beaten up... i'll sommer say it myself.

hmmm. then i'll teach you some friendly zulu phrases for when you come visit here... and introduce you to witblitz and swazi... you won't need anyone to beat you up afterwards


m.

what's haldol anyway? like prozac?

[toddrf]

Marius:

I hope I don't have the opportunity. The sad fact is that I am already, as of 8 October, involved, and that involvement seems to be taking on growing aspects almost on a daily basis. My wife doesn't like it either. I have two young children. I do not like this stuff any more than anyone else, the difference is that I understand its necessity at times...

Todd :-wave

[toddrf]

A serious anti-psychotic. ;-)

Todd :-wave

[JonP01]

These anthrax hoaxes are getting out of hand. Here in Oz we have just implemented emrgency legislation. Up to 14 years inprisonement and (I think I recall it correctly) up to $6,000,000 Australian fine.

[toddrf]

That reminds me of the potential fines for copyright infringement and bootlegging software. Some deterent. Sick people are not put off by threats of potential jail time. Theyare too far gone and too in need of getting their jollies from scaring people anonymously. Like people who pull fire alarms and then stand back to watch the trucks show up.

Very sad, we have a lot better things to be doing with out time than worrying about anthrax and loonies who buy stamps and talcum powder for a cheap thrill.

Todd :-wave

[mariusv]

here in SA you can get up to 20 years prison for a terrorism hoax. it's regarded as treason more or less. two idiots sent out an email on sept 12 claiming to be a CNN newsflash, saying FBI found south africans involved in the attacks. the rand shattered to bits. but they were just hapless yokels who thought they were being funny, and now they're looking at those 20 years.

they claim the email was just sent to their friends, as a joke, which i believe. looking at them they don't seem particularly malevolent (nor rocket science material). i think they both had the shock of their lives.

anyone found sending talcum as a joke had better have his mind examined. 20 years in an SA jail is worse than a death sentence.

where can we get cheap haldol?

[mariusv]

out of curiosity: what kind of involvement? i've gathered you're involved with emergency services, is that right?

[mariusv]

i see there's a complaint about what i presume is this thread. i also get the feeling i'm the one being erm defended. todd, i suppose we'll have to cool it. i promise i won't provoke you any more. thanks for the discussion. it's been stimulating and educational. and i'd like to express my sincere appreciation of the spirit of this community. (gawd, my english sounds so formal... something gets lost in the translation...)

looking forward to many more years of The Joy Of Flying!

m.

[toddrf]

Marius:

You didn't provoke me. I accepted a challenge from a worthy opponent. I am very much a fighter on most levels of my life. It is my nature.

Lou Betti already acknowledged that such discussions belong in outer marker which is why I moved my reply out of 2002 (I believe it was, and continued it here) I was specifically asked a question and felt it prudent, see my post, to honor the sensitivities of others who wish to just talk simming/flying by not continuing it in a forum reserved for that.

Marius, there comes a point where you have to tell the namby pamby's of the world that you are going to stake a small piece of ground for yourself, duly warn them and then stick to your turf. The only thing we can be faulted for is if we became "expeditionary" and tried to export our dialogue to other parts.

To ney sayers, and I haven't read the post yet, I say "Fob off and get stuffed! We have been responsible in our talk, we have openly labeled the thread to not decieve anyone of its content and we have remained within the thread. Quit being pussies and honor our spirit of open dialogue and self-restraint is my reply.

Now having said that I await any deserved word lashing from Nels, Lou or even Simon for that matter if I am in the wrong. I will of course, honorably accept full responsibility for my words as you have done as well Marius, on this we can agree.

Todd :-wave

I have your six covered

[dil52]

I was going to post this in the FS2002 form, but thought
I'd better not.
I went to Wal Mart to see if and when they were going to
get FS2002 in. The manager informed me that it is corporate
policy NOT to retail flight simulators anymore.

Hey, I get everything, including my undergarments, at Wal Mart.
That's where I got FS98, FS2000 and FS2000 Pro edition.
That was until this big scare.
Do you know we flight simmers are considered as a bunch
of waco's. At least by Wal Mart. :-)
I can see it now.
flight simulator control.:-lol
Hey, any reason to panic or have a CAUSE is good enought for some.:-)
I asked the manager how many clothing items they stocked that
were made in Afghanistan. He didn't know.:-)
Fred
http://www.flight-sim.net

[mikeymcc]

WARNING -- This post is politically INcorrect, consciously inflammatory. Lou, if you delete it I will understand ...

You are quite right, and I have changed my view -- killing a few thousand Al Q'Eda members isn't enough. I will further observe that, without the creation of a police state in the USA, there is little our government can do to protect us against further acts of terrorism. For that reason, the best protection is the elimination not only of terrorists, and of governements which harbor them, but also of the CULTURE WHICH BREEDS THEM.

Radical Islam started a Jihad thirty years ago. What we need to do now is to acknowledge the Jihad ... and there are three basic responses for the USA in acknowledging this fact of life:

1 - Ignore the problem, as we had been doing prior to 9/11.

2 - Create an isolationist police state at home in the USA, one which is free of terrorists and terrorism, but one which is also free of liberty, with closed borders.

3 - Maintain our free/multinational way of life by eliminating everyone inside and outside the USA who professes "death the the USA" so that, once World War III is over, THEY will have paid the long-term price rather than we.

My vote is for choice 3, and I believe that the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has now raised the stakes in a way that is going to cause Israel to make it clear to the Bush administration that choice 3 is an option which must be articulated within the administration itself and to the American people. (No more "good Taliban"; no more "good terrorists"; no more talk of amnesty.)

In other words, a REAL regional war is about to begin, centering on Israel, and the people of the USA simply MUST choose a single course -- and stick to it -- regardless of world opinion. (If we choose to FIGHT, which we have not yet done, we have four allies we can count on, Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel. We should ignore everyone else.)

I personally believe that we must go on to eliminate Radical Islam itself, which means that we have perhaps 100 million people to kill. I believe we should start from a strong logistical base, in Israel, (rather than a weak one in Pakistan) and open a two-front war fanning out from that base -- a) the Middle East / Central Asia, and b) North Africa. It will take us 10-20 years to clean these areas out. At some point, either in parallel or later, we must tackle the third front, the Pacific nations.

We should do it one country at a time per front, leaving behind Japan-style constitutional capitalist societies with popularly-elected representative governments, free of Radical Islam, perhaps under initial UN supervision. After the killing is over, in some places this approach will require redrawing borders to separate ethnic/cultural groups who have no hope of getting along. In other cases this will require (forcible) resettlement of people until the necessary stable political units have been created.

There is simply no room on the planet, in my opinion, for anyone who professes "death to the USA" -- no amnesty, no issue of including them in governments which try to include all points of view. If the USA as we know it is to survive then we need to get rid of these folks systematically, and we need to make sure that the cultural conditions which allowed them to arise in the first place can never be present again. (It is no coincidence that economic backwardness correlates well with the presence of Radical Islam.)

If we do not respond EVERYWHERE, in force, to the declared Radical Islamic Jihad then by definition we will be opting for postures 1 or 2 mentioned above. If that's what the USA wants then fine -- but we had better do whatever we're going to do with our eyes open.


Lenin once remarked that "the world is divided into the 'Who' and the 'Whom'" (which translates perfectly from Russian, which I used to speak reasonably well). Lenin also observed that "You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs".

The USA can either be overtaken by events, or it can make things happen in a SERIOUS way. Whatever choice we make we're going to have to pay a heavy price. If the choice is for WORLD WAR then the price can reasonably be expected to be temporary (10-20-50 years). Anything less and the price will be both permanent and on-going.


Mike McCarthy

[mariusv]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-01 AT 03:45AM (EDT)[p]Mike

I'm beginning to agree that what the US is doing now, while being morally debateable etc (see above), is in fact the only course of action in an imperfect world. Considering the multiplicity of factors involved, this military campaign seems like the only feasible option. Gasp. It's synical but practical -- the lesser of a million evils.

(This is not to say I've changed my mind about war, just maybe a bit about Americans.)

We'll have to see what the response is to the ground war, now that it has reportedly started.

But the complication sets in when you say, as I do, that there should be NO MORE "good terrorists". Israel, as an example: they have allready killed 3 people in a car bomb attack in the West Bank in retaliation for the assasination. Now, whatever their reasons, that can still be seen as terrorism, and in fact the US has said they do NOT regard it as the same as the response to Afghanistan. Where the attacks on the WTC were clearly seen as senseless evil, the situation in Israel is completely dependent on perspective. The assasination itself was in retaliation... sigh... for an assasination.

After the assasination Israeli troops went into some of the Palistinian territories, and civilians got killed, one 10 year old girl got struck by shrapnel in her school, and other kids were also injured. In all honesty, I can't decide who the terrorists are in that conflict. When someone commits murder in the US, would the police retaliate by attacking the neighbourhood where he lives? Why should an assasination be different?

Another well-flogged example would be the action by the African National Congress in South Africa. The UK government, amongst others, regarded their use of car bombs as clear terrorism. The practice of "necklacing" political opponents (involving a car tyre, and petrol (gas?) and a few matches) was widespread among supporters of the ANC, and I could compile a long list of reasons why they were socially and economically erm predisposed to these actions. Yet, in the end THEY proved the "freedom fighters" after all.

It's never simple.

Setting up Israel as a stable base of operations will unleash all kinds of excrement. Blood is thicker than blah blah blah

Do you think that American domestic policy will tolerate such a campaign? I would expect incredible resistance (from the rest of the world), and while your intent might be good, you'd be dealing with people, who have an atrocious record for "seeing things your way". The world economy will suffer greatly, which I couldn't care less about, but what about the "masses" IN the US, who would much rather just have a plain, simple existance in a wealthy country, than a noble and righteous existence in a poor and dangerous country, like the US would then become. I'm all for making sacrifices, if the goal that you have in mind can be achieved, but since the US is a democratic republic, at some point the voters might loose interest in sending their kids to battle, or being constantly afraid of opening their mail.

"The people" are the bane of the 11%.

But, let's not divide too much. I agree: all forms of terrorism should be targeted, in something akin to a western jihad. There should be no support for ANY soft relations with ANY regime, just because they share your enemies. Israel should be pressured relentlessly and mercilessly to keep their side clean, and so should the Palistinians. There shouldn't be exceptions just because some spineless dictator is willing to let US planes over-fly his country. And, most importantly, you can't go critisising people for their acts of violence, and then go perpetrate it yourself.

This should be a revolution in thinking: the cause of extremism is poverty and desperation. While we're taking out terrs, we should at the same time address the ridiculous imbalances between "west" and "third world" countries. Emphasising military action will only create more terrorism. Because people are basically humans, and humans will do some desperate things when pushed into a corner. Like cut off their own leg to get out of a landmined truck. There should be a war, yes, but it should be on ALL fronts, and the sacrifice might be too much for most.

I'm truly hoping the developed nations won't be dragged down to the level of their enemies.

m.

[dil52]

Marius, you are correct.

The war on terrorism MUST be JUST and fair with no exceptions. The people who were arrested for SELLING the terrorists driver's permits to carry chemicals should never see the outside of a prison for years, if ever. Those that send harmless powder and call it a prank should be treated just like they are in your country, with a minimum of 20 years in prison. Why so harsh, people may ask. Because so called harmless threats are terrorism in themselves.

There is no room for compromise. Terrorism and oppression are acts of mindless and senseless people against humanity. If we ignore them then WE are what we despise.
Fred

[alastairmonk]

I tend to agree. Whilst there can be no absolute definitions (by which I mean oppressed persons who really have tried all other options short of violence) in the overwhelming majority of cases it is, I think, fair to say that "Terrorists" are those that try to obtain their goals by violent, unlawful means. The "unlawful" part is important because it allows for the "violent" actions of the military when sanctioned by such organisations as the UN.

I don't claim to be fully impartial here - as someone who lives in the UK I am obviously biased. We have been living with terrorism for over 30 years thanks to the actions of the IRA. The whole "Irish Question" is way too complicated to be addressed here, but the situation hasn't been helped by funding from US pro-IRA groups such as Noraid. Moves are currently under way to finally hack out some sort of peace, and I feel that this move would certainly be helped if the current financial support from the US was stopped. I'm as uncomfortable as anyone else here with the UK government sitting down and having secret talks, but after the absolute, irresolvable deadlock of the last decades, it might just be worth it if a lasting peace is the result.

http://www.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3bae67d85138992a.jpg

[Patkorn]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-01 AT 11:52AM (EDT)[p]I just came across a web-page. Interesting stuff I found, gives kind of a different view to things. [http://www.globalresearch.ca]

Make youre own opinion. I like this kind of stuff - it certaily makes me question a lot of things !

Patrick

[stephenwhite]

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the link. Some areas are definitely not for the squemish.

Stephen White

[mikeymcc]

Marius,

The Bush administration may feel that Israel's responses to terrorist strikes are of a different kind than the USA's, but I do not agree, nor do most Israelis.

Israel's demand of the Palestinian Authority is simple and justified -- either extradite the terrorists named by Israel for trial in Israel, or suffer the consequences of having Israel eliminate them in PA territory by whatever means will work.

Israel faces the same choices that the USA does -- a) close their eyes (preferred by the USA as the Israeli course of action); b) create an impenetrable police state; or c) eliminate the threat where it originates.

We know where the Sharon coalition government stands -- for the third choice. Given that the Sharon hawk government may well fall, the REAL questions are: What choice will the Israeli DOVES make if they are returned to power? And, What choice will the doves make if Sharon et al remain in power?

For many, many years I was opposed to Israel's stance re Palestine ... But when Arafat turned down cold Barak's settlement offer, the blinders came off.

The PLO, PFLP, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, and the militant Muslims in (former) Yugoslavia, in Albania, in Chechnya, in Indonesia, in the Sudan, in Syria, in Iraq, in Iran, in the former Turkmenestan -- they all want the same thing -- the restoration of Islam to its former glory, and the elimination of everything modern/Western from "Muslim territory", beginning with the elimination of Israel, which they view as merely a good start.

If the USA tosses Israel to the wolves it will make little difference to the outcome of the war, and to the long-term future of the USA, but it will make a BIG difference to the 4.5 million Jews and 1.5 million Arabs who live in Israel and ask only to be left alone in the modern nation that they created from raw sand and water.

It would also make a big difference to ME, so big that if this happens I will renounce my US citizenship and exercise my right of return to Israel. I have professional skills I can contribute, and I would rather die among fighting Jews than live in a Western world which refuses to acknowledge the obvious -- that Radical Islam wants to kill ALL of us.

Mike McCarthy